5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

From another thread - "There is another new (USAC) rule this year. On restarts with 5 or fewer laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear." Can I assume this is for midgets too?

I beat this drum couple years ago! Glad to see USAC following lead of other major series...hopefully other clubs will fall in line...like they usually do (since decisions not made on own).

Jason Dull
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jasondull.com (For all the Racing News)

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

I agree.. By far, the most retarded rule yet.. if the guy in front of you worked hard to get passed that lapper, then YOU SHOULD 2!!! Hell why not just send them to the pits once they are lapped???? Cmon thats silly

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

...they could go to double file restarts...

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Hey guys, 9racing has the right idea if one car had to pass the lapped car why shouldn't the rest of the field trying to hunt down that leader.
This is a stupid rule, having lapped cars in the mix is what usually leads to exciting racing. If one car pasted that lapped car to take the lead the rest of the field should have to in order to claim the win. As for double file restarts, no way; USAC open wheel racing doesn't have to take on the look of Nascar.

Patti

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

I think this is not a good thing. Sounds like a wanna be nascrap rule. Everybody should have to work the traffic - it's a part of racing. The guys in front of the lapped cars earned this under racing conditions. Why shouldn't the others? Again, you're taking away an advantage they earned.
Is this under the guise to save equipment, when in reality, it is to make sure the fans interest is heightened after the yellow? Don't get it - double row starts are another BS ordeal.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

NO,NO,NO. Dumb. Drivers work hard to pass slower cars, then all drivers must work topass.
Chuck

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Looking at this from a (former) drivers aspect, USAC is looking at this from the spectators point of view. It will probably make for some better finishes, but it is totally unfair to the guy leading the race. I guess USAC is tryin to please the fans without taking their taking their competitors into consideration. The guy leading the race had to pass the lap car, so why should 2nd place and so on not have to do the same? Terrible Rule!

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

"USAC is looking at this from the spectators point of view. It will probably make for some better finishes" - WHOLE POINT I SAY. Not EVERY fan in the stands is able to pay enough attention the whole race. MANY times I have had to explain that cars restarting SECOND, THIRD, etc., ARE a lap down. Too much BS. Make it simple for fans to understand. Like I said, be better than double file? Other post right, yea, NASCAR does it, many other dirt leaques do it, now USAC apparently. They all seem to have pretty good business models and traditions.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

I guess I will go ahead and throw my 2 cents in as well.

Either put lapped cars to the rear on EVERY restart or leave them in place on EVERY restart.

A rule shouldn't be different if the caution comes out on lap 24 versus lap 25. The restart lineup last night would have looked completely different if the lapped cars would have been placed at the rear.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

I'm not sure I see the need for this rule. Lapped cars usually know that they have been lapped. Why not tell all in the driver's meeting that if a yellow comes out and they are a lapped car that they should move over on the restart and let the leaders go by? If you are being lapped, does it matter if you finish 15th, 20th, 19th or whatever? My point being that if you're afraid that you will lose a spot by moving over, it really doesn't matter since you are probably at the tail end of the field and taking home pennies for those back positions.

If Tom Hansing is flagging, he usually motions with his flag to the lapped cars to move over.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Plain and simple...I've seen others mention this and I will too. If the leader has to get passed the lap car, EVERYONE else should have to as well. Not a good or FAIR rule at all.

And if they're trying to be like NASCAR, they better stop. I don't watch pavement racing for a reason. Dirt track sprint car racing is THE MOST EXCITING racing there is. PERIOD! You don't have to try and make it more exciting...every lap, every corner is exciting in dirt racing. So STOP IT!

just my opinion in the matter

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Graet Idea!!!!!!!!!! Send them to the pits when they get lapped ....I like your thinking

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

lol! - forget about it - let's just run an Australian Pursuit! won't have to explain much during yellows then!

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

I doubt that very many of the "youngsters" who haunt this site know what an Australian Pursuit entails, and way fewer have ever really seen one.
:2:

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

I agree it is a great rule. Since the guy is probably not in a position to get scored to a higher paying spot , go ahead and send him to the pits. He is just in the way coasting and collecting . This way a guy charging from the tail can have a chance to pass the guy who started on the pole and is stinking up the show. Wow ! I want to shake the hand of the person that had this epiphany. He is advancing racing ten fold .

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

How many drivers have b*tched about being blocked by lapped cars whne trying to pass and contend for the win?

Maybe, just maybe, USAC has heard this enough and trying to make some changes to eliminate this amount of b*tching.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Im for putting the lapers back in the possition they were in. If they were 17th They start 17th in the row.

If you want fair, Bring out pacer lights

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

I agree. That way cars 2 laps down start behind cars 1 lap down, and every body races for position.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

USAC emulating NASCRAP isn't a good idea. Last time they did it almost destroyed their silver crown series. Next thing you know they'll want to lock in the top fifteen in points into the feature. Dang, they already have stinkin' provisionals.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, consider this scenario: A 40 lap A-main goes without a single caution until lap 35. The top one or two drivers have "checked out", and have lapped deep into the field. And very few drivers have pulled off. If you have well over half the remaining field down a lap, why shouldn't they be able to race with each other for position without having to worry about screwing things up on the restart for the leaders?

Now, for a regular 20 or 25 lap weekly feature, you should probably go ahead and put the lappers up where they belong. It's usually not going to matter if the lappers get to race for position in those deals, because there will usually only be a couple of them, and they will be towards the tail end of the running order anyway.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

It did. There ain't no almost about it.

But that's a discussion better suited for when the Gold Crowns fail and get shoved down our throats by the usual people who got tricked into buying one fo those things and are now begging for anyone to come bail them out.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

[QUOTE=illiNOISE;157008]Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, consider this scenario: A 40 lap A-main goes without a single caution until lap 35. The top one or two drivers have "checked out", and have lapped deep into the field. And very few drivers have pulled off. If you have well over half the remaining field down a lap, why shouldn't they be able to race with each other for position without having to worry about screwing things up on the restart for the leaders?]


why shouldnt they get to race for position with other people a lap down or more???? Well, first off.... If your racing for position and lap or laps down.. then might want to hang it up.. on top of that.. They start where they line up because thats and lastly.. the option with putting them where they were scored.. Have you seen how messed up some of these restarts are.. they would be re aligning the group all night.. All i know is, At the little 500, there are none of these bullsh&t calls.. Best format around hands down.. I mean 9.5 times out of 10 if your running a Usac show.. and your lapped, i guess id pull it in.. No sense in wasting the Equipment on doing so.. They just need to leave this rule alone..

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Or consider this scenario: A 40 lap A-main goes without a single caution until lap 38 - the leader has had to pass 10-12+ cars to maintain his position. Caution comes out and under new rule those 10-12 cars are moved to rear and suddenly #2 guy does not have to pass all of them like leader did - he gets jump on restart and walks away with a win that under old rule would have been very difficult to achieve and former leader now leaves with 2nd place pay when he very well would have won it. Now if you're talking a $10k to win show that's pretty big chunk of change to lose due to this rule......

Either way it's tough but if I was the leader who worked to pass everyone and now its just being handed over to those behind me I would be pretty upset.....makes a good show for the fans but is it good for the racers....guess just have to wait to see what the actual drivers say about it....I guess if you're #2 guy that walks away with a win you're all for it and if you're #1 that just got dumped then it's a bad deal.....I think that is the hard part to swallow for me....that it could happen in last 5 laps and a lot of work for the #2 guy is suddenly much easier and has a much better shot at the win....although if it were a driver I were rooting for in that # 2 spot then it's all good LOL.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

You'd be upset too if you were 2/3rds of a lap ahead of second and there were no lappers between you. Yellows eliminate a ton of fairness. As far as a fan, I like to see racing. Its your job to stay up front :)

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Just a couple of thoughts on subject this from an ignorant old fan's perspective. Fans get no respect around here.:7:

I see this rule as trying to draw the casual or new fan into the sport more. To make it easier to understand and more exciting for them. Bring somebody that has never been to a race before and then try to explain that under caution the first car in line is in first place, the second car is second, the third car is 11th, the fourth car is 12th, the fifth car is third - you get the idea. Could be confusing to anybody that is not a seasoned race fan. And especially with out a score board. Hell, before one way radios, there were some confused drivers too.

As a driver the rule could work for you or it could work against you. But if the rule is applied equally to all drivers, then it is the same for all drivers. Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you.

This way there is no doubt who is battling for the win, and no slugs to get in thier way for the last five laps. And it is only for the last five laps, right? I see it as doing more for the fans. After all it really is about entertaining the fans.

Q: So when they send the lapped cars to the back, are they sending them all the way around the track to catch up and pick up a lap? So does that put them down one less lap then they were before the caution came out or not?:11:

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

EXACTLY! - "I see this rule as trying to draw the casual or new fan into the sport more. To make it easier to understand and more exciting for them. Bring somebody that has never been to a race before and then try to explain that under caution the first car in line is in first place, the second car is second, the third car is 11th, the fourth car is 12th, the fifth car is third - you get the idea. Could be confusing to anybody that is not a seasoned race fan. And especially with out a score board. Hell, before one way radios, there were some confused drivers too...This way there is no doubt who is battling for the win, and no slugs to get in thier way for the last five laps. And it is only for the last five laps, right? I see it as doing more for the fans. After all it really is about entertaining the fans."

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

I wonder how many lappers will be "sacrificial lambs" during the last 5 laps of the race to not only create a caution but also get rid of the lapped cars, kind of killing two birds with one stone with a little use of the bumper.

I think one of the frustrations with lapped cars in the past was the "perceived" randomness of lapped cars being placed between the leaders on one caution and then the next caution they were not. In most if not all cases the perception was that "USAC" controlled that but in reality the drivers policed themselves for the most part..

I am up in the air on this one as I have always been of the opinion that if I as the leader have to work my tail off to lap a car so should the rest of the field. I understand what they are trying to do with this rule but I fear having every race come down to a 5 or less lap shootout when the drivers figure out that the use of their bumper on a lapped car will cause the same result of a NASCAR debris caution ... Might be great for the fans but may get awfully expensive for the owners ...

for what its worth ....

Tim Clauson

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Damion had lapped up to about 8th on Wednesday. Fortunately for him the caution came out at lap 24 of 30 so the lappers stayed in place. If I was 8th and lapped I wouldn't pull in cause there is a difference in pay from 8th to 9th or 10th. If I was 15th or so, then I would pull in cause the money is the same and why wear out the car/tires/motor or take a chance on getting caught up in something.

Here is another thought... a team car to the second place car is at least a lap down. If he stops on the track after 5 to go now his teammate is on the leaders tail for the restart. Fortunately we don't have many two car teams this year where this strategy could be played.

Guess we will see what happens as the year progresses.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Outside of the Chili Bowl, how many guys have the balls and ability to spin someone out without ending up in it, also?

And honestly, how is a guy going to know the lap count and/or where they are positioned? Why do guys running second now not take out a lapped car in the final laps when they can see the leader in front of them?

I have seen many lapped cars police themselves, but I have also seen some guys not use their brain and end up completely changing a race. I just saw Travis Berryhill completely change the finish of a preliminary feature at the Chili Bowl by not heeding the directions of a car behind him, and parking himself right in the way of everyone. I think that one ended with Levi Jones taking him out after the checkered. I think Coleman Gulick was that lapped car a year before.

I think it will rarely be an issue, and will even out in the long run for the guys who run up front, so I like the rule...

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

I won't address the rule as many logical points on both sides. In addressing the underlying issue of making non-wing racing (specifically USAC) more fan friendly while at the same time carving out an even bigger niche to set it apart from others; I would submit the following. Remove the extra sheet metal which has shown up in recent years, i.e. cockpit enclosures, and fill-in on cages. Take a look at old Dick Wallen video of Terre Haute with cars exiting turn 4; Opperman, Pancho, etc. sawing away on the wheel. Plenty of great stills by others showing the same. It is time to reintroduce the human factor back into the fans perception particularly since racing of our type is often driven by identifying with personalities as opposed to brands.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Here's another scenario that could be problematic should it come up: What happens when the leader laps up to 5th or 6th place, and that last lead lap driver spins out with a few laps to go? That driver will go to the end of the lead lap line, ahead of the lappers. It's going to look for all the world to the fans like that driver got their spot back. We had this exact situation come up in a micro sprint feature a few years ago at Pittsfield. Believe me, we got some dirty looks from the fans over that one.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

When it`s all said and done what ever scenario happens there will be hard feelings for someone... If it`s one of my old cars getting lapped they better be pulling in. Wasting fuel and tires just to be in the way makes my brother mad.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

As a fan i like the rule, but i doubt it will come up that often. It could make for some more exciting finishes but i can see the leader not liking it if he worked hard to get to the front and a caution comes out. This is going to sound crazy but in a close race with 5 laps to go i still think being in the lead is not the place to be. If a couple cars are close behind the leader with no lapped cars inbetween they have ways of setting up the leader for a pass at the end.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Want a better 410 show on the short track dirt bullrings.....more heats with fewer cars per heat running a couple more laps: fewer feature starters. I would dubb this 5 lap rule "sandbag until the dash"

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

I disagree on all points. I absolutely hate heats with less than 8 cars. I would start 24 cars in every feature. Heats should be 8-10 laps, semi should be 12-15. Sorry.

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

You have to remember, the lead cars have the advantage of the move over flag. That helps when it comes to lapped traffic. I think all tracks should have the same rule. Lapped car go to the tail under five laps to go. If your that fast, you won't need that lapped car to hold up the field.

Phil Poor:6:

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Why send the lapped cars to the rear, are you not a race driver? Of course the lapped cars should drop to the bottom and let the faster cars go. All you are doing is picking up the race from when the yellow was thrown. Don't screw up Open Wheel racing like those NAPCAR people in Florida did. :2:

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

You can't "drop to the bottom" if the guy in 12th or 13th is right behind you! With the lower car counts, you may be racing for a "top 10" or better and you HAVE to stay in the front runners way if you are even a wanna-be "race car driver". This isn't even worth discussing here, all those other clubs from short tracks to professional series have already instituted some form of the rule. They all can't be wrong? It should change at some point across the board. Shouldn't be a complicated deal. Makes no sense the way it is. K.I.S.S. The car in 2nd, should be 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th ...etc. Time to move on from anything else...

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

Well, My name is Nick send me a PM if you want the address and hell ill take you to dinner.. Im all for "charging" but CHARGING FROM a LAP or LAPS DOWN doesnt happen very often from sprint racing.. I mean i suppose to hell with the guy who ran his ass off to put guys between him and 2nd place.. But whatever none the less, his feelings.. its all about the fans!! I mean, never the less, if Jones,Darland,Stanbrough,Cottle,Hines,Clauson,Whit t,Coons Jr., Gardner and the rest of these guys think who "MAKE A LIVING" out of this sport... This is crazy, i realize you have some "die hard FANS" but lets face it, if it werent for the CAR OWNERS AND DRIVERS the fans would NOT have a say.. as their would not be racing... STUPID RULE!!! but it is USAC and they do go against the grain so to speak.. we will see i suppose..

Let me know Hurst!

Re: 5 laps to go, lapped cars go to the rear?!
 

i had a guy at east bay tell me how great the outlaws double file restarts are. i told him they had to because there are very few passes with those guys anyway. i feel for the drivers that have worked all race only to have to start the feature over again and again. i don't like the usac rule either. as a fan yes it is more exciting but it's not the way it should be. i think usac dirt racing is catching on more and more as people are waking up to it again. i don't see it as being broken but one hell of good show.