Pavement sprints & midgets
 

:22:usac drives another nail in there coffin! I've been around usac for 52 years i've seen the best of open wheel racing!!!!!!!!!! But since the 90s its been down hill and ready too hit the bottom!!!!!!!!!! I want to point out some facts here! The first big mistake was too take dirt car racing from the championship trail! 2- too ban the rear engine sprint cars! 3- going to 410 ci. Sprint engine when you could run your 355ci. In you sprint and dirt car! 4- going to 18" wide wheels its ruin dirt track racing there all black slick dusty tracks! 5- having to have a pavement car and dirt car to go racing in champdirt sprints midgets! When we raced for 88 years with the same car on pavement and dirt!!!!!!!!!!! Now usac is taking pavement sprint cars out of there so called national or ohio indiana championship!!!!!!!!! Because of lack of cars!!!! Who fault is that? Usac leaders! I'am not braging when i say i told them on all this issues your making a big mistake doing all of this!!!!!! I wish i was wrong because racing been my life! But with usac common sense is not common!!!!!!!!! So if you want to see usac sprints on pavement this will be your last year & chance to see them! Now usac is 1/4 midget and off road truck racing! Both draw huge numbers of fans!!!!!!!!! Said part is no one at usac has any true understanding of the history of usac racing and how great it was and how great it could be! I hope you understand this!!!!!!!!!!!! :22::15:

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As scary as it is I agree with you on a couple of things. I think that you should have to run dirt to have a championship trail. I also agree about the tire width. I disagree about the rear engine cars. When the rear engine cars were around you had to have 2 cars, because the rear engine cars wouldn't work on dirt.
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Re: Pavement sprints & midgets
 

a lot of great points. i have to agree with u with the statement about usac turning their focus toward the quater midgets and off-road trucks (at least it appears that way). having two different cars for dirt and pavement is rediculous. the tire bill to run pavement is rediculous (a few thousand dollars for just one weekend). the only way to control these cost are with more rules...but there's already enough of those. it's a catch 22 as far as i can see. pavement racing will continue as long as there are enough rich guys who are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to field these cars.

MJ

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usac pavement sprint on the national level is done at the end of the year!

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

well you have to have two cars now!!!!!!! And there where 5 -6 rear engine cars then!!!! It would have been a stepping stone to the 500! Ask tom sneva!

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I had heard that about the sprints. That is sad news.

USAC needs a rear engine pavement series. Almost had one but somebody didn't want to have to own a dirt car and a rear engine pavement car??? *** ???
Today you have to have one of each anyway.

Nobody will be changing to narrow tires. But it would take car of a lot of track problems.
Maybe a 14 inch wide. Equal the cars like e-mods.

Just thoughts
:14:

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D.O. correct me if I am wrong but didn't this same thing happen in the 80's too ?
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The sad thing is this has all happened before - late 70s/early 80s. I seem to remember another organization was created (ICAR?) for the pavement cars. Don't know if there would be enough interest now, given the car counts.:15:

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It was ICAR and if I am not mistaken ASA even sanctioned some sprint car races
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yur, 100 % right with usac, its commen sense will not be tolerated. Some one needs tostart a new race club and combine the points midget sprint and champ cars to be come the number one or champ !!! Drivers would have to drive in all 3 to be champ. Thats the way it was years back !!

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Speaking of car counts on pavement, anyone have a guess on how many sprint and silver crowns might show at Richmond next weekend?

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I remember a lot of folks demanding change a couple of years ago, as it applies to USAC. And, we've seen some. Here's some more of it, apparently. Some will not like it, others won't care. But this is worse than my wildest hallucination.:34:

I would add, however, that it is probably a decision driven by the economy. Car counts are poor, maybe it's harder to fill the stands, etc, etc., but that doesn't mean that I have to like it, right?

I don't really have any solutions to the problem, so I shouldn't complain. If I hear the fans right, their biggest complaint about pavement racing is the lack of passing, and I'm not sure that there's any 'easy' fix for it.

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Huh ?? Not in USAC !

---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:22 PM ----------

This thread has me scared -- I agree with both Duke Cook and Danny Laycock in an IOW thread.:( What has come over me?:11: Is this the onset of dementia?:7:

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What about Superduke's answer of narrowing the tires? I'm for that & stiffening the sidewalls too. That should bring some of the side by side back to both dirt & pavement. The only problem with that is the sanctioning body doesn't have the balls to do it because of all the crying they know they'll hear from the racers. Especially the well funded teams that out horsepower everyone else.

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Making a 12 wide rear double diamond {duke explain] would change racing. But who and why would they change? The horse is out of the barn. Hooiser would spend million to make the new tire. Won't work.

But do the tires, bring the drivers back and not matted in hot laps and slick for the feature.

USAC paniced when the x indy car of Carl Gelhausen showed up with big balled Tom Sneva at Winchester. It was an old Huffaker liquid supension indy car. One guy built a rear engine car that Rodger Ward drove but got his head cut off while trying to push off!!! So Indy cars were death traps back then plus killing people pushing off. Plus making the teams have to have a second pavement car put and end to that. PANIC.

Paul Leffler even built one to try.

So today it cost a lot, nobody gets to Indy .

:20:

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To me one of the things that hurts pavement racing in all 3 divisions is that almost everyone runs the same car, a wide Beast. I prefer a little difference in cars. The HOSS series last night at Anderson was interesting with several different types of cars competing. Also there's too much follow the leader and to be honest I don't like the whole rich kids/ride buying that seems to go on more and more these days, I prefer talent gets the ride and wins the race instead of who has the biggest wallet. And as far as a road to Indy, we all fell for the Tony George lie once and saw him sell the short track guys out when his rich golf buddies Rodger, Chip etc came back even tho Tony, Billy Boat and others showed on an oval they could get the job done. Now it's slot cars and pretty faces driving (NOT RACING but driving)while about 50 people watch on TV and in the stands....... Give me a RACER anyday over a driver

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My guess would be 15 sprints and 20 silver crown has anyone got a look at the early entry list.

---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------

One problem with pavement racing is the lack of races you cant afford to build a pavement car to run a handfull of races a year. when you can run a dirt car 30 plus times.

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well what did i say? One car race dirt and pavement!

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Never heard this ???
What are we talking about ... getting your head cut-off or otherwise killed while pushing off ?
Can D.O. or anyone else explain ?


:19:

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I like the idea :8:.Now all they have to do is book sprints and midgets on dirt together twice a weekend in IN,IL,OH,WI,and call it what it really is A REGIONAL SERIES:16

The guys that want to run pavement sprintcars can buy some wing mounts and run HOSS OR AVSS;)

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Yet Regional midgets only run asphalt?

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Paul the ole boy that built the car was firing it off at home in Michigan[ i think] and the truck hopped the rear wheel and got up on top the rear wheels and car and cut the guys head off. No cage just a hoop bolted to the tube frame. poof !

The Indy cars from back then until Mears chopped his feet up weren't too good. If you survived the impact the fire more than likey toasted you pretty good. [ Ask Norm Brown from Milwaukee with Duman. survived the crash but got burned]

If the Leffler car and others had grown addressing the safety issues too and the owners saw the light that in a few years they would own two cars anyway, might of worked. But can you image sticking one of those old POS's into the Guard RAILS that Winchester and Salem used to have. They would of been sliced like apple pie on impact then burned as fuel cell weren't much better that rubber bags covered by fiberglass or maybe metal.

:11;

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I seem to remember Ray Smith's rear-engined sprint car catching the main-stretch wall at Salem and threw parts everywhere...some of which landed on the roof of the old covered grandstands!

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Concerning Richmond car count: seeing as Kalamazoo only drew 15 and three of them are not likely to be at Richmond (Bloom, Swain and Clarke), are we realistically looking at only 12 cars?

I saw that Brad Sweet was running with the All Stars at Eldora that night, so does that mean the Kahne/Mopar thing is cut back due to Chrysler's financial woes?

Hell of it is, it seemed like only yesterday (2years) that the pavement sprinters had increased their numbers at Winchester to 28cars. That was a good field and it seemed like the pavement sprinters were on the rise. How quickly things can die on the vine in the USAC world today.

I'm saddened to hear that USAC may be dropping pavement sprinters completely. I know some will not care, but to me, it will seem like the last link to the Brickyard will be gone. Anybody remember the "Road to Indy" deal that involved USAC, USCS and I believe TBARA?

Oh well, like Aero said, I guess there'll be the AVSS/HOSS and there is always supermods.

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Makes me sad too, Alky. If tire bills are driving away the owners, then a combo car won't fix that.

---------- Post added at 03:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 AM ----------

I haven't been able to figure out, or have explained, how a narrower tire on pavement would aid in passing. So long as everyone is on the same brand, size and compound of tire, like now, wouldn't it still be 'equal'? When narrow tires did exist on pavement, all of the other technologies of the day(shocks, motors, chassis design, etc.) was probably not up to the level of today's. I wonder if today's pavement cars could run narrower tires at all. Or, at least, run them without tire treatments and traction control. Where would we be then? I don't know.

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I'm not sure how much credence is in this. Maybe Duke has some cold hard facts. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe the decision makers have talked to Duke and tell him what they have decided to do - or maybe not.

I am a pavement fan. I've never been afraid to admit it on here. I know I am in the minority on IOW. But I prefer it. Nothing wrong with dirt, but I like pavement better. All I can say is if the pavement goes away then so will I. I may hit a few dirt races just to stay in touch, but without pavement USAC racing, I will become more scarce than I already am at tracks.

Looks like Duke reeled in some big ones on this thread.

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Saturday's show had plenty of passing. Santos moved up from sixth and the race with Coons through traffic for the win was stellar. Nobody but the two local cars had ever raced at Kalamazoo before and I'm pretty sure nobody tested there. Maybe that had something to do with why the racing was so good?

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Here are a few things I think would save pavement racing. 1- we need to change the offset rule, this would decrease the left rear weight bias and in effect unhook the big motors. 2-lower the price of tires, USAC needs to either open the tire rule up or tell Hoosier this is the set price if you want to be the exclusive supplier sell tires at this price or we will take other bids. 3- increase the purse on pavement, pay 7000 to win and spread a little more on back through the field.
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After I ruffled some feathers last year with USAC by complaining about them coming to/splitting up Quarter Midget racing, I decided I should step back and watch. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I couldn't see the big picture.

It has nearly been a year since then and sadly, things seem worse rather than better. I get the whole deal with the economy. I really do. I understand it costs alot to go race and it costs alot to go watch. That said, I don't know anyone who owns a race car or is a fan of racing that doesn't want to race or go watch a race.

I don't own a car anymore, so I don't know all of the headwinds the owners a facing. Rob Hoffman or someone like him would be the one who would have to speak from the owners side. As a casual observer, the first things I think of is tire costs and travel costs.

I still believe that the National Series should go to stamped tires when cars roll out for practice. Leave the LR for stagger. The big teams will still roll out with new rubber every night, but it won't be everytime. Does that get into Hoosiers pocket? Sure. But, it's better than not selling any. Their stance may be this: Why make so many compounds for so few racers? Well, make a common tire that is used in HOSS,AVSS, AND USAC. Less inventory needed. Much like what they did with the DT3.

As far as travel costs go; that is a tough one that will only be solved by the advancements in the trucking industry.

There are many cars out there that want to race, but they are not going. USAC has to find out why that is and address the 2-3 most sticking problems.

What USAC fails to capitalize on is this: They can never seem to identify what makes them special and what is unique about their series. In doing so, the have started alienating racers and fans.

The last wave of the racers over the last 15 years were fueled by two things:1) The Thunder series on TV. So many racers and fans were generated from that series. I understand that TV works different today, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't do whatever it takes to get back there. No excuses. 2)The success of drivers Jeff Gordon,Tony Stewert, and Kenny Irwin in NASCAR. That started and sort of "Gold Rush" to this style of racing because these drivers were seen first on the Thunder series.

USAC at one time meant this:"The Best". If you were a USAC champ and a USAC competitor, then you were generally recognized as the best. Then a few things happened:

-The dirt cars were taken off of the championship trail. While I don't believe that you should have to run the dirt to be the IRL champ, it started a split in USAC and the dirt divisions started to lose importance.
-USAC banned the Rear Engined cars, at the time it wasn't seen as a big deal, but later proved to be a very big deal.
-The plane crash took the lives of many people who really cared about the sport. Maybe they didn't always make the right decision, but they understood the sport.
-USAC was basically in Zombie mode after that and relied so heavily on the Speedway that when the CART series was formed(For good reasons) they really lost direction and a major "Carrot" to entice people to race with them.
-Around the same time, the WoO was formed and was basically the anti-USAC. Over the years, the WoO challenged the USAC position as "The Best" and basically has out USAC'd USAC. They have the sponsors and the TV. I'm not saying all is perfect in their world, but they have stayed progressive.

Right now USAC is seen as a club that is going backwards and not forwards. They are also seen as a club that does not have it's racers interest upfront. Many people are saying: "What is the purpose of USAC"? and as of now they haven't been able to respond.

They may point to the Focus series, but that was an ok idea that wasn't handled right. Instead of being a good traing ground, it was really a deal to move obsolete motors for Ford. The IRS series picked up on the concept and did it the right way by allowing converted used motors that could be done by the racers.

They may point to the series sponsors, but I don't know if anyone besides them really benefits from those.

In all fairness, I think there are good people that work for USAC and it was great to hear about Bill Carey sticking up from the racers at Terre Haute, but it really looks like a rutterless ship right now. Hopefully I am wrong.

Instead of dropping the series, why not find ways to make it work? Get with the teams and see what they need.

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You could go to a very hard right rear.

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USAC has shot there self in the foot so many times.

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the answer is the same car for pavement and dirt!!!!!!!!!!!!

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 AM ----------

did you read do.'s post? Or you just want to to be neg.!

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One thing to look at is Kevin Miller has always said he is selling a product well if the product is not selling dump it. This is very hard to swallow for the people who live and breath sprint car racing but on the other hand 12 cars showing up for a race is very sad for sprint cars. I can see the reason Kevin is dropping the pavement sprint cars its because the paying public is not buying the show and when 12-15 cars show up why would you go pay to watch. The Silver Crown cars are in the same boat and unless USAC comes up with a long term plan you are going to see a steady decline in our sport. All the top divisions are loosing car owners faster than new ones are comming on.

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what cars win the open wheel division at pikes peak? Rear engine! Thats scary!:15::14:

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One car for both is a good idea but could it get done.How would you inforce it. Could you somehow tag a car that is a true combo car and award it more points per show and make it a advantage to run the same car on pavement and dirt.

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i hate to tell you this but he has no ideal what to do too save usac! No back ground in open wheel racing! Race the same car on dirt and pavement like we done for years we had plenty of cars on both kind of tracks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Champ sprints midgets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who fault is it you only have 12 cars? Usac the anwser!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are a lot of paved tracks in the us. But you have to get off your ass and go out and get races outside of ohio ind mich!!!!!!!!!! :14::15:

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What is negative about what I said? The fact is at least for for me - no pavement, no Seadog. No negativity. That is a fact. And how is what I posted even remotely related to D.O.'s post? Please explain yourself, Duke.

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we done is for years!!!!!!!!!!!! As you want to say combo car! ***? Build cars to the spec! We had in the 50 60 70! Engine location! -wheel base -width all you would do is build a frame! :15:

---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------

how bout you reeled in a big one? Do has heard this also!

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outlaw testing at the tracks that they race at!!!

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same car for pavement and dirt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:15::14: Yes cheaper tires!!!!

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As far as I know, nothing is preventing anyone from running the same car on both surfaces. I am VERY aware of the differences between the cars, and why they are different....so each can go as fast as they can on their respective surfaces. In NO way do I see making MORE rules reducing the costs. By making more rules, you eliminate innovation and new ideas, and in effect, the little guy's chances. With so many rules, all you need is money to buy the right parts. The know-how or ingenuity to try something different is eliminated even if it can be done simplier or cheaper than the rules state. Open the tire rules....open the engine rules....like Duke said, have basic car specs.....keep the safety rules in place, and go racing...may the best racer win!!