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Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
I went to a wennie roast at my Knoxville driver's shop tonight and we had a good time discussing the proposed rule changes announced for the 2008 season. With all of the recent talk here about cost savings in sprint car racing, I think that many of you will be happy with some of the proposed rules, as several IOW posters have made similar suggestions. So, I thought that I would share them with you all, and seek the thoughts and opinions of the peanut gallery.
All of the proposed rule changes can be found here : Major rule changes for 2008 Items of note: 1. No cockpit adjustable shocks or bar stops... "The only cockpit adjustable device allowed in 2008 will be a wing slider for the purpose of moving the top wing forward and backward only." 2. Harder tires... "For the 410 class the right rear will be the sc 15 Hoosier or harder. On three pre-selected nights we will run the sc 25 on the right rear. The left rear will be the D 12 or harder. No RD 12s allowed. Other left rears from different manufactures are allowed with prior approval." 3. Limitation on the size of injector stacks... "2009 proprosed rules will include a maximum 2 5/8" injector size restriction for the 410 class." So, what do you think? Are these steps in the right direction? :angry-smiley-007: |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
When ever they say cost savings,it cost the little guy just that much more
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Originally Posted by sprint4: |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
I like the idea of limiting what a driver can adjust as the race unfolds. In fact, I'm not too sure that getting rid of the wing sliders wouldn't be a good idea as well....definitely makes the cost of a new wing less! I think the harder tires, & limiting cockpit adjustable devices are a step in the right direction, as winged cars are locked down too much as it is.
Tony Johnson |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Originally Posted by jjsprt92: Never in the history of auto racing has a new "cost saving" rule helped the budget racer, in fact, it usually hurts or kills them. I can see the cockpit adjustment elimination, BUT LEAVE THE MOTORS ALONE! All you have to do is look to NASCRAP (yuk) to see just how well restrictor plates have helped the small teams there, and whoever thought "OUTLAW" racers would have restrictor tubes, please raise your hand. This just proves to me the Apocalypse is near! :thumbsdown: |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Still missed the boat. Cut the tire width in half and that will control engine costs.
Lynn |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
rules suck.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Originally Posted by Blackduce: |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
#3= Restricter plate sprint car racing :thumbsdown: Thats called 358/360's in MOST area's.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
What's the answer? In some cases, you just can't do nothing. You have to try but, in most cases you naysayers are right about how cost saving rules wind up costing more because, whenever you restrict something, it causes big bucks to go into research, development and testing to make the restricted part perform better. It's much cheaper to buy something with a bigger hole in it (i.e. injectors or cylinder bore) than it is to try and make something with a smaller hole in it perform as well as the part with the bigger hole. case in point is the IRL N/A motor formula. They started at 4.0 litre then had to drop to 3.5L and finally down to 3.0L because the HP kept climbing. They did eventually go back to the 3.5L because of adding the road courses (barf!!! puke!!!). I do believe that unhooking the cars is a better and cheaper route to take than trying to restrict motors. However, when it comes right down to it, it's tough to beat money no matter what the rules are. Fresh tires and equipment beats Worn almost everytime.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Cut the size of the track in half. Knoxville is to big. :idea:
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
I agree with Lynn and Dwight, cut the tire width in half. Motors would be less important. Driver skill would be at a premium.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
One thing that has always amazed me about racing is the inability and/or unwillingness of the participants & race organizers to learn from those that have gone before them. I could show you copies of NSSN from any decade you choose and you would see the same arguments about cost being discussed. It happened to the midgets, it happened to the modifieds, and it has been happening for years to the sprints. Unlimited rules mean unlimited cost. If you wish to participate in an unlimited form of racing you know going in that it will be expensive. If you have a limited budget you need to participate in a class that has rules to limit expenses. Don't jump into an unlimited class and b***h about costs - you knew that going in. Most Indiana sprint car racers are of the blue collar variety. They work regular jobs and have limited funds to race with. There has to be some rules for the class to survive. Engine rules are difficult and time consuming to police. A smaller, harder compound tire is the most sensible way to limit costs. In addition to obviously reducing your tire bill it will reduce your engine costs as you won't need all that horsepower and won't be able to use it even if you have it. Tires are easily checked for size, compound, and whether they have been treated or not. Also, a side benefit of smaller tires would be the fact that you would most likely have better tracks to race on as they wouldn't be torn up by the huge RR's, thereby saving even more money in shocks and other torn up parts. JMO
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Bubba says...take the bull by the horns and implement rules from the 1963 season. Bring back those glorious early days of the Nationals and the Weld brothers. Mandate it a rule to sleep in the cow barns and gamble all night. Lock up the cops and bring on the ladies. Most of all..."NO sprint car tails, only boxed tails and a cross bar in the rear roll cage, just like in the "GOOD OLD DAYS".:applaud::checkered: |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
its pretty obvious cecil98 either owns or has owned a sprint car. From my experience it sure seems like things operate as he described.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
...dump the napkin holders....
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
I would say install the baby wipes and cut down those wide tires on the rear. Now that would save money:applaud::angry-smiley-007:
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Isn't it easier to hook up a narrow tire vs a wider one? Just cause the tires narrower dont mean the motors not gonna be as important. I mean how narrow ya wanna go 12 inch tires?:kookoo2: I know it's a different deal but there are drag cars runnin 1500- 2000 HP motors on 12 inch tires runnin in the mid 6's @ 230 in the 1/4 mile.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3..._mustangst.jpg |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
It doesnt matter about the tire size we will find a way to put the power down to the ground pluss the shock and weight jacker rules would hurt the little guys even more because allot of us have them and making us go back to the old style would just cost us more money and the D-12 rule on the LR would keep us from going wing racing even more being non wing guys all we have is D-10's and RD-12's so all of your cost savings that you mentioned would end up costing more money in the long run for the littile guy and for guy who run both wing and non wing. KEEP THE RULES THE SAME!! the sc deal is good enough.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
If they went to a much narrower RR tires in nonwing like some have suggested, you would prob have a lot of torn up equipment with guys bicycling, etc.. Focusing all that power and weight on a much smaller contact patch probably wont have the best results considering the speeds we run today. IMO
Would think guys would have to go into corners a lot easier when its tacky to keep from biking it. It would dramatically change the style of nonwing racing, a style that fans would not like. Its 2007 not 1950 |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Nevermind
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
i'm done here.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Its 2007 not 1950[/QUOTE]
Compare the crowds, racing 5 to 7 times a week. Everyone actually making money. Kokomo used to have seats everywhere but turns 1 and 2. 3 sets of bathrooms( even if they weren't flushies). Crowds of 4000 to 6000. We may never see those glory days again, but the sport continues to attract less fans. That is why promoters add more classes at the back gate to pay the purses. |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Originally Posted by BrentTFunk: |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Rex, after talking to Hoosier Reps they thought a 10in or 12in with a harder compound would make sense. They said they also make such a tire or have the molds already. Rear tires made the most sense, and leave the fronts alone. Several reasons were mentioned that the narrow harder tire would be a plus. Never was bicycling an issue. With the wider and softer tires we run today we can create a slick track very easy. Also it's harder to have a good cushion that will last. They thought every thing would be a plus and could not think of one negative. The engine would not be working as hard. Rex last Sundays Kokomo's grandstand looked like the one in your cool drag picture. Also are both those pictures the 12 inches you were talking about? Ha!
Lynn |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
The narrow tire is a great first choice to put some racing back in winged racing and the two other things I like would be to cut the size of the wing back like it was in the early 90's and make them bolt the real size sprint car tail tank back on these cars and have 40 lap features again.During the feature if you run out of gas or wear a tire down to the cords and it goes flat then you are done for the night not one to wait patiently for the lets work on it red flag deals here.And taking the cockpit adjustable shocks away is a great idea to it is about time to unhook the cars and let the drivers decide the racing outcome again.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Leave it the way it is like someone said before if you put a narrower tire on the right rear of a sprint car you are going to cause more bicycling.. most of you have probably never had to repair or pay for the cost of one but if you bicycle the car hard its gonna cost you a lot to repair it.. the little guy is going to suffer even more also with the cost of wheels and tires... you figure $350 for a RR wheel plus another $200 or so for that tire and your going to need more than one of both of those... and what would you do with your old ones? throw them in a pile out back because you would no longer have any use for.
If you were to put the narrow tire on there though you would have to have it spaced out so far it just wouldnt be possible.. The wider tire is something for the car to lean on in the corner.. Take that away and your going to lose what sprint car racing is meant to be. Want the narrow tire? thats what a midget has right? problem solved. As for adjusters in the cockpit I think some should be regulated.. maybe something like you can have 1 cockpit adjuster choose which one you want and better hope that is the one your gonna need.. |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
I agree with Joe Snyder. The skinny tires will get too much side bite. Use the common width tires with a much harder compound if you're going to have a tire rule. Also, someone mentioned a "maximum" of 21.5 inches for spacing the RR. I would beg to differ and say make 21.5 a "MINIMUM" for spacing. Unless I'm doing something wrong, we move our RR "out" to loosen the car up.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
I would say that they are making an effort to get the cost down. As some people have stated before, money will always come to the top. There is no way around it. We can slow it down for a while, then it catches back up with technology. I think the point Lynn is trying to make is that if you have a smaller tire, yes you may have more side bite or a harder time controlling the car, But that is the point. It will make a less of a need to have a $40,000 850 hp motor. You won't need it and couldn't use it. It would be entirely too fast to have it. That itself would keep the cost down. Then the motor builders would have to figure a way to still make money on machine work with a smaller motor which midget motors are still $40,000. A guy can put together a motor fairly cheap to run in almost any non-wing deal. Especially as much dry conditions we have had in the past few years. I enjoy running on the slick when you are still able to pass. Sure it is not as fast but there is more driver involved. The problem with slowing the cars or lowering the horsepower now, is that the fans may see it as a step backwards. Not as many wheel stands, although the racing may be better. Not taking away from anyone here, but we would see who was who.
I think it is a great idea. The intial cost would be more to replace with the smaller stuff, but the money you would save on the motor would surpass the wheel and tire bill. Just a thought. Tyler Shoemaker www.tylershoemakerrracing.com |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
WHY CHANGE!!! what is wrong with the racing the non wing cars provide. Its the wing cars that have the problem. Maybe add a thousand lbs to Ballou and Stanbrough to make it fair, but that doesnt matter deal with what we have or dont come to the track.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Lots of very intellegent people suggest cutting down the width of the RR to solve alot of the cost problems. Maybe thats saying something? If your that concerned about not being able to handle a car with a narrower RR then space it out, problem solved...
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Originally Posted by LocalYokel: |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
if your going to cut cost why not make gradual changes like one year no **** pit adjusters, then next year no gas shocks then next year something different but have a plan so that way it illiminates the problems DJ mentioned of the little guy not being able to keep up with rule changes decide a year in advance so teams have a full year to use there old equip, like say and this is just an example if they want a non adjustable steel body shock rule for 09' tell teams in 08' that is the plan so they can use what they have and wear it out ect. give them time to buy and use what they need and what they have.
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Originally Posted by DJ Ott22: And as much as people would like to think otherwise 410's in Indiana are slowly going the way of the buffalo. Look at Bloomington. Few years ago 40+ good cars a night and if you were a local it was an accomplishment to make the feature. Now more or less everyone makes it. Same way with Gas City. |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
The cars are over-powering most of the tracks anyway, go to an open engine rule and you reduce engine cost by at least 30%.
1. Any Engine Displacement or Configuration 2. Any Fuel (Including Nitromethane and or Nitrous Oxide) 3. Any Aspiration |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Don:
Some specific examples of how you figure this would be nice. I have found that when you are experimenting with new combinations of stuff in the engine department it can get pretty spendy. I like the idea of having options to build horsepower, but unlimited motors give a lot of room for some nasty stuff. |
Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
What the heck, I'll jump in. How about rear tires that durometer out to somewhere around what you might find on an old Buick. I mean hard! You know, something that will last you two seasons. This eliminates the need for the big motor (money savings), utilizes the same wheels, tracks last longer (better racing), and little to no tire bill by comparison (more money saved). Also, more "little guys might give it a shot. What do you think?
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
all i have to say about horsepower is ,its better to have it and not need it as to need it and not have it .in many different circumstances as a driver
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Re: Thougts on 2008 Knoxville Cost Saving Rules
Hummm Sometimes a lil harder tire is just the ticket on a tacky track.
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