Darren Hagen's crash - Yellow flag discussion.
 

Most of us there don't believe he WAS "life-flighted". It was 15 minutes or so after the ambulance took him away from the crash when the helicopter left, and that was more likely for a roadside call than for transport of Darren. It's possible, but I sort of doubt the transport had him in it. The x-factor here, previously unmentioned, is that the accident never should have happened had the flagman not thrown a nonsense yellow for a lightning-quick 360 that Kevin Thomas did and kept going. It was unnecessary to throw that flag, period. And it set up the incentive for Hagen to take a shot at Ballou that put him on the razor's edge of an unforgiving cushion after several laps of just running comfortably. This is becoming fairly epidemic, these days, with hair-trigger cautions being thrown for incidents that do not otherwise have an effect on the race. Best of luck to Darren, of course, as the crash was vicious by any measure, and he reached scary altitude before coming back down to the track.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Nonsense yellow or not, it's still Hagen in the seat.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

I was at the driver's meeting and Bill Carey said that they would go caution for ALL 360 spins.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

I don't doubt that at all. But it's idiotic. A guy in last place half a track from the leaders with two to go who executes a 360 and continues may merit a Black Flag, but stacking up a field that is otherwise strung out breeds just the sort of incident that happens here. Of course Hagen was still the one who jumped the cushion, but the hair-trigger caution--while policy, perhaps--is s-t-u-p-i-d.
All occurrences should have the particulars of the moment taken into consideration. That caution was unnecessary. It set the table for what transpired.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Lisa, Thanks for the update.

To say the yellow caused the crash is Ludicrous at best. It setup a restart on which the accident happened but IMHO thats grasping at straws considering ALL RULES and PROCEDURES were followed as PRE STATED.

Do I think the race could have continued without the caution? Probably but done as stated is just that.

The other scenario is that KT spun, It remains green and these cars run down KT at twice the speed. SOmeone else gets injured, then blames being laid on the starter for not throwing a yellow.

I wasn't trying to yell just emphasize.

Get well Darren.
Chuck

Re: Darren Hagen
 

the reson for the yellow was cause thomas jr done a 360. drivers were told in the drivers meeting that no matter what if you done a 360 and stopped or kept rolling you would recieve the black flag and that the yellow would come out due to the high speeds of that track. good rule i believe it should be kept in place at all usac races this season.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Dumb rule.

You have to be told to slow down to avoid a spinning car? You probably shouldn't be racing then.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

The spin was low in turn 4 a hard place to see for approaching cars. Have you ever been there? Eldora is quite a different animal than the tracks out on the left coast.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

The spin was also half a track from the leaders with two to go and was executed very quickly. If that is the rule, that is the rule, but I believe circumstances are peculiar to any occurrence, and that 360 was not a compromising one. Had that rule not been authored, the incident should not have brought out a yellow. There should be incentive for a racer to not stop in the event of a spin of this nature.
The caution flag set the table for what happened next. It is a case-study in the potential inherent in the yellow flag-black flag for a spin rule.
I understand the rule. I don't and won't agree with it.
But it's all incidental to Darren's well-being, which is the only important by-product of all this drama now.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Steve,

I love you to death - but somehow pointing the finger at Tom Hansing in this situation is a bit like this logic. Darren gets hurt, falls in love with a knock out nurse at the Miami Valley Hospital - they get married, and have a son who is very smart and in time becomes a real mover and shaker - The son, in turn, marries an exotic Russian beauty who is well connected politically, and through the union, Darren's son becomes the most powerful man in Russia. Unbeknowst to him, his bride is evil, and she slips him a tonic which causes him to lose all bearings - So while derranged, he sets into motion events that lead to a nuclear holocaust --- and this all started because Tom Hansing threw the yellow on a lazy 360 spin during a sprint car race at Rossburg Ohio.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Pat,

Somehow, I think you have outdone yourself.:respect: Now that is absolutely hilarious.:O::rolling:O::rolling When in doubt, blame USAC.:headbang

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Pat--
Dare I ask how long THAT one took to conjure?
I'm not blaming the flagman for obeying the orders that were given to him, unless HE was the one who cooked them up. I DISLIKE unnecessary caution flags. I feel this one was not required based on commonsense, but obviously required based on the edict put forth at the driver's meeting. Rules are rules, I understand, but as far-flung as the "Commie-Nurse-Hagen-Holocaust"-scenario is, there is nothing far-flung in perceiving that caution flags breed bunched-up fields, and exponentially increase the likelihood of "incidents"--which, frankly, I more expected to see in turn two on the restart off of what I presumed would be a Hagen slider right out to the cushion to shut the door on Ballou. My relief that Hagen shortened his slide and settled for second lasted about 5 seconds, whereupon he was offering his candidacy for "Highest Altitude of the Year", which I would hope he wins.
On the lighter side....I'd like to learn more about this Nurse Zhivago....

Re: Darren Hagen
 

I would just like to make a comment on the rule. This is a rule that we, the drivers, asked for. Too many of us have been taken out with people doing 360's. Not having a rule like this promotes drivers doing stupid things when they spin. If a car spins, it spins. Whether is goes 180 degrees or 360 degrees. I wish Darren a speedy recovery so he can continue to kick our buts in the midget as he has been doing this year.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

The x-factor here, previously unmentioned, is that the accident never should have happened had the flagman not thrown a nonsense yellow for a lightning-quick 360 that Kevin Thomas did and kept going.

Steve - the above was your quote and it is grossly unfair. How would you feel if it was directed at you, and a person you work with, interact with, and given the two great personalities involved probably are very friendly with, was involved in a horrific crash that could have been much worse? Pointing a finger isn't necessary and it is hurtful. These are professional drivers. Over the course of the year they will make starts and restarts hundreds of times - and there are hundreds of different variables involved in each case - some mental and some physical. You cannot pin this on one factor. You just can't. And I think you know this. Laps are turned there in 15 seconds - Tom and any flagman, with help from race control, has a split second to react. What happened after that is in the driver's hands. We are all disappointed that Darren got hurt, but here is the deal - sometimes there are situations that just happen.

For the record - I'm not a dumb guy - the previous post took about a minute - but I did make a typo that I had to correct and that took another 15 seconds because it involves the oldest science fiction story line of all time - a notion that a random event has large consequences. This one took a bit longer.
-

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Pat, I agree.
After I was informed that the rule was established and announced at the driver's meeting, I realized right away that the flagman had no choice.
But I am no fan of that rule and that won't change.
Over half of all spins--WAY over half--are no-brainer cautions. No ifs. No ands. No buts.
If the rule is set in stone one way or the other--if there is to be NO interpretation of the events of the moment--than certainly erring on the side of caution is going to win out. Personally, the black flag idea for a last-place car spinning out on his own doesn't make me the least bit bothered.
Nobody made that cushion extra dangerous at that moment when Hagen jumped it. Hagen's crash was his and his alone. I cannot "unwrite" my morning-after vitriol that I posted while still bitter at the half-dozen utterly unsubstantiated "reports" I heard in the hours following Hagen's crash and excavation and medical attention. In that post, my directing of specific rebuke upon the flagman was unwarranted, because the rule IS the rule.
I can understand that Jerry and the fellow drivers prefer it, and I respect their position. In by far most of the cases, a yellow flag is completely necessary.
I would prefer to see the occasions when it is NOT necessary recognized.
I feel that Thomas' hasty spin-and-go was a textbook case of a caution not needing to be thrown. NOT because he didn't earn a black flag, but because he compromised nobody's pace but his own. Those occasions are rare. But this was one such occasion.
The flagman indeed deserved NONE of my frustrations, as his job is clear, and I did NOT know that rule until after my post. Just as I did not know through any confirmation until Sunday afternoon that Darren was, in fact, in the lifeflight. By the time that helicopter left, there was only speculation as to how hurt he might have been, and the foolish pronouncements of "I heard Hagen is...(fill in the rumored injury)" were background noise the rest of the evening. It built my frustration up, and I vented the next morning.
The flagman did his job. The safety crew did their job. The EMTs in the copter did their job, and that rule is the rule.
I just don't like the blanket "no exceptions" aspect of that rule.
But I'll keep going to the races, because the racing action between the caution periods on Saturday Night was why my money is there.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

That's a great post - and I direct you back to the first sentence of my first post.

For the record - when the yellow came out I said bad words out loud too.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Non wing sprint cars shouldn't be on a half mile like Eldora or Terre Haute anyway, and this wouldn't ever happen.

Get well quick Darren!

Re: Darren Hagen
 

[QUOTE=Motormasher;96760]Non wing sprint cars shouldn't be on a half mile like Eldora or Terre Haute anyway, and this wouldn't ever happen.

Motormasher,

if this is true, explain the reason two drivers last year got injured badly, one at padukah(1/3 mile) and one at laweranceburg (3/8 mile)?

regardly the size of the track, all froms of races are dangerous. THE DRIVER ASSUMES THE RISK!!!!!!!:loser:

GET WELL SOON BUDDY

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Does this mean your car will stay parked when the savior steel block series (which runs a DT-3 tire...the ambiguity must be killing you) runs at Terre Haute and Eldora?

My hopes for a speedy recovery for Darren.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Chad Boesflug, Kenny Biro, and Jimmy Weller say hi.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

What????
Speedy Recovery Darren

Sure i'll get slamed for this but that is the dumbest thing i have ever read. Sprints belong on the big tracks.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

The sad part is that this doesn't even make Motormasher's Top 10.:O: He's a virtual wellspring of nonsensical information.

Jerry

Can't stop laughing Jerry. Thanks.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Pat--
Dare I ask how long THAT one took to conjure?
I'm not blaming the flagman for obeying the orders that were given to him, unless HE was the one who cooked them up. I DISLIKE unnecessary caution flags. I feel this one was not required based on commonsense, but obviously required based on the edict put forth at the driver's meeting. Rules are rules, I understand, but as far-flung as the "Commie-Nurse-Hagen-Holocaust"-scenario is, there is nothing far-flung in perceiving that caution flags breed bunched-up fields, and exponentially increase the likelihood of "incidents"--which, frankly, I more expected to see in turn two on the restart off of what I presumed would be a Hagen slider right out to the cushion to shut the door on Ballou. My relief that Hagen shortened his slide and settled for second lasted about 5 seconds, whereupon he was offering his candidacy for "Highest Altitude of the Year", which I would hope he wins.
On the lighter side....I'd like to learn more about this Nurse Zhivago....




SCECKERT Your acting like the field was stretched out. They were not. Ballou, Hagen, and Jones you could have thrown under a blanket. Whether the caution came out or not has nothing to do with bunching the field up. What happened could have happened without the caution falling. The caution had absolutely nothing to do with that incident. Hagan just flat out got in too hard. Like I said, that could have, and probably would have happened anyways. Hagen was on Ballou's bumper the whole race. Now if Ballou had a straight away lead, maybe you have something. But you don't.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

:loser::loser:....if you got out and raced you would have a better chance of winning also:loser:

Re: Darren Hagen
 

[QUOTE=Joltin Joe;96779]Right on. I saw a midget driver lose his life at the Indy Speedrome - a 1/5 mile track about 30 years ago. Let's face it, whether you are a racer or just an ordinary schmo like me, when it's your time, it's your time. We all know what can happen in life. You can either wrap yourself in a cocoon and shield yourself from all harm or live your life to the fullest. That's what makes racers different and exciting to watch.

I recall a time when USAC wouldn't race a sprint car on any track that was smaller than a half mile.:Steer

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Really!! When a person post something that contains their personal thoughts and opinion we have to over look the fact that poeple have a wide range of think-ability, some have a limited supply and do the best they can.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Why you guys let Joe Kidd, Motormasher and Wingman draw you in is beyond me. They like big tracks for wing cars because their minds work so slow they can only follow it when its follow the leader and no passing or they might get confussed. :)

Re: Darren Hagen
 

"Does this mean your car will stay parked when the savior steel block series (which runs a DT-3 tire...the ambiguity must be killing you) runs at Terre Haute and Eldora?"

:rolling:rolling LMAO!

Re: Darren Hagen
 

sprinterfan-
We will never agree on this point. I accept that without conditions.
I interpret that you believe either that Hagen may have been setting up for a move on Ballou, or was in some other way likely to get into three wrong on one of the next two passes through there, and that there was not even a single element of the wreck that was derived from the restart.
I don't. I believe he had taken his shot, was settled in at second place and at the pace established, and was in no position to make a pass attempt, unless Ballou faltered. I disagree with your description of the three top guys being close enough that one could "throw a blanket" over them. When I conjure that imagery, it implies a pitched-battle with each position being contested vigorously. Even at Eldora speeds, I think of that as a Mighty Long Blanket that would have covered the top three.
I believe that the flow of that race was interrupted, and chaos theory emerged. I feel that there was next-to-zero chance that one of the three top cars was going to change positions in the 25-odd seconds remaining in that event, prior to the caution period.
I'm glad the racing action was as compelling as it was that evening. Hagen's accident tarnished my enjoyment of the event. But you and I simply saw this occasion differently. I bear you no ill-will for finding fault with my opinion.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Shutup fat boy!

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Thats the "OLD" name, we would like to be called the politically correct term "Body Builders":D.

P.S..I too hope Daren gets well soon...:thumb

Re: Darren Hagen
 

:rolling See you at GC Pine

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Yes Sir..:greenflag:

Re: Darren Hagen
 

I laugh big too! Nice first two post BTW.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

No problem fat boy. LOL!!!!

Re: Darren Hagen
 

Thank You! It's good to see that at least someone was sober enough to see what had happened.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

After reviewing the tapes from this past Saturday evening I have come to the following :

1- Without doubt all blame for the accident involving car 67 is that of USAC. There was an opportunity after the completion of lap 6 to run 1 extra caution lap before resuming racing, had USAC not squanderd that moment in time the outcome would have been changed.

Re: Darren Hagen
 

wheres the video.i was there would like to see how it happened