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Winning by Judgement
We were discussing the ramifications of Officials deciding the outcomes of these races both pro and con and a question came up, What if the exact same scenario (Loyette V Kuhn) happens on lap 1, 10, 20, or 38, of 40 lap race?
How far back in the race do you make this "Judgement" call. Personally I feel these sanctioning bodies and officials are walking a slippery slope in deciding the outcome of races by making "Judgement" calls. I lived the quarter midget way of "judging" a race and sadly (at least in my mind) I see this creeping (in some cases stampeding) into the professional arena and just like Saturday night the same situation can be scene (depending on vantage points) in several different ways. I guess more then just this one circumstance I wonder what the thoughts are concerning this trend as a whole by both the competitors, Officials and Fans. Thanks Tim Clauson |
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The powri officials made a similar call in one of the micro "B's. I have no problem as long as the same call is made next race, next month and the last race of the year. I do feel that Kuhn needs some sort of penalty for the retaliation. It was still costly and dangerous. If Loyette had relaxed it might have been even more dangerous. A little "I didn't like that" nudge is one thing, but that was a take aim and drill him.
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Me personally, I really didn't have a problem with what Loyet did. Did I have a preference as to who won? No; because I know and like Brad Kuhn as well.
I don't feel Loyet was being dirty. I feel he was urgent for the win. I don't mean he is a desperate person, but when you have an opportunity to win something and everything is on the line, winners get a sense of urgency for the win. He saw his spot and he took it. Not too much unlike what J. Johnson did for the win at Martinsville. Was it dangerous? Not really. I honestly don't believe that he would have done the same thing if he where at Belleville KS., Eldora etc.... That said; I will say that Powri has had a rule in place since last year that prohibts contact such as that. It is a known and enforced rule so it shouldn't have been a surprise when the race was awarded to Kuhn. As long as they are consistant, I don't mind the rule. In my personal opinion I align more with Tim as that is a very subject call to make at times and I personally hate to see any race decided by an official. It was a great show and I'm glad that Kuhn and Felker won as they deserved it. I was also impressed at how quickly both guys got out of their cars. Who says the HANS and containment seats limit the ability and speed you can get out of these cars? |
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So Tim, if I'm getting the gist of what you're trying to say, are you saying it's okay for anyone to bulldoze the leader on the last lap with no repercussions whatsoever? |
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Until racers start paying the bills for cars that they wreck in the course of failed slide jobs, slide jobs will continue to happen....or all drivers will start to race others as they are raced. If you want respect, you'd better plan on giving respect to others, too.
I think that the bigger issue is that too many young drivers have little or no respect for others. They need to learn that, first. So if any organization has a rule with sanctions that prohibit such behavior, and enforces the said rule consistently, then I'm OK with that. And, while "legislating" a win may be unpopular, it will either stop the bad behavior - or the club/group will cease to exist as owners/drivers won't support it.... |
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I guess where I am trying to make sense of this is actually in two ways #1 if this happens during the race before the last lap is it then ok ??? if not how do you stop the race to enforce the rule ? #2 how do a limited # officials watch up to 24 midgets in a race and enforce this rule justifiably for all competitors ? Again I not saying my way of thinking is right or wrong I would just like to hear a good argument for and or against the trend of "making calls" during a race. Tim Clauson |
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But you point out a real problem - how do officials, limited in number, watch everyone? Simple answer, they can't...physically impossible. So some will be missed. But if they make the majority of calls correctly and equitably, chances are that the rooting and gouging will stop. But I can tell you from personal experience that I've had an official tell me that he "...didn't see anything..." when everyone in the pits and the grandstand saw it. I lost a lot of respect for the guy when that happenned...... |
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Not all organizations mkae judgement calls...
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I am old school and I beleive if Loyet crossed the line first he is your winner. I also beleive if Kuhn feels he deserves an ass whoopin then so be it. Lets face it neither one leaves in that bad a shape 1st and 2nd.
Some of my favorite videos on the web are with loyet because of his driving style. I just hope he isn't suprised or crying when he is sitting outside some race track in the weeds on his lid. |
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If it happens during the race, you apply the appropriate penalty. There's no reason you cannot apply the same penalty at lap 7, as you can at lap 30. The only difference is, at lap 7, you have 23 laps to overcome that penalty. You do not have that advantage at lap 30. And I'm fine with that, as the end of the race should not be protection from a penalty for rough driving. Unless you have 24 officials, some calls will go un-made but as long as the calls that are made are right and bare some influence on drivers thinking about making moves like that in the future that is the best you can ask for from officials. Tim, I have to wonder what was your reaction when Brian was taken out of a transfer spot at Perris in the Midget and the driver who dumped him, got the transfer spot? I was appalled a call was not made in that situation. |
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Honestly, I've seen that same situation play out PLENTY of times at the Chili Bowl and quite a few other little tracks. I just wish there were allowed to be repercussions outside of those made by series officials....a few have had it coming for a long time but no one ever seems to do anything but complain to everyone else! |
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Fighting is great.
If you have the mental acuity of a 7 year old. And people wonder why short-track racing has the image it does. |
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I've never seen fighting in any other sport:confused:
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Like Shane said and Spridge agreed to i also believe the car that crossed the line first should be the winner. Sometimes a slide job is the only way to pass on any given lap. Why doesn't anybody try this if they are leading a race on the last lap, if you sense a car is about to pass you with a slider why not run the last 2 corners around the bottom and make the guy pass you on the high side? Make the car wide and try to block the car trying to pass you. I'm not a driver, just trying to make a point.
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I agree with Spridge. The history of the driver can make a big difference in a call. Sometimes organizations make calls that they normally wouldnt make if a driver has been a problem in the past.
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Do it the new fashioned way. The person who crosses the line first wins. PERIOD! The Boxing ring is in the infield. The victory celebration or Contestation is given there. The legitamate contester can show up for a three round bout. If he wins, He wins. If the winner of the race wins. He gets both purses!
Chuck, kinda joking but some things are way too iffy for a body to make a decision. Quote:
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Oh the old hockey mentality. Take the fighting out and watch your attendance plummett. Yeah the action is on the track, whatever extra activities is a bonus. I think that option should be there for a deleberate bonehead move. The person who's going to dish it out, Better be ready to take it too and realize the next race against said person is next friday night when your likely to be BULLDOZED yourself. |
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I feel like the the guy that crosses the line first is the winner, no ifs, ands or buts. However, if a guy runs over somebody to win, and (this is important) officials have previously warned this guy about just such tactics, then hit him where it really hurts - in the pocket book. Give him the trophy and tell him to enjoy it, cause that's all he is getting.
later, Bob Mays |
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First off, I wasn't there, but was told about it from an eye witness.
As a fan, I gotta agree with Shane and Sprindge here. Both of these guys are very intense behind the wheel, but IMO from many past viewings, this outcome was probably a little overdue. And Bob, the billfold deal probably wouldn't be a serious deterent in Saturday's episode....:D |
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Whatever happened to the rolled up black flag and pointing at someone as a warning? Or since there are radios now, giving someone a warning verbally for being too aggressive(early on in the race). Early on in a race the officials, as I see it, still have the right to penalize a driver a certain number of positions under a caution. Then, if the problem persists, WAVE the black flag. Last time I checked the black flag was not designed specifically for a smoking car. Once they are parked the lesson should be learned, you would think anyway.
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Well if everyone had a wallet the size of Loyet's daddy then this wouldnt be a problem because everyone could drive like an idiot
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Theres only one person turning the wheel and hitting the pedals. He is either right or wrong, dumb or smart and I ain't choosing. I wasn't there. Chuck |
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1st. no amount of money is going to hurt brad loyet 2nd. What if the guy he takes out is a weekend warrior and in taking out his only car and totalling it ends the season for the guy he took out? |
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Why weren't there at least three of the Moms and Dads (whose sons and daughters were not in this event, of course) in the Judges' Stand to determine that one or both of the two Brads needed to go to "time out" ???
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Brad Loyet shows up to win races. Period!! And by all means, if Brad Loyet's dad worked his butt off and now has some money to provide a good life for his family, kudos to him! I think it is AWESOME to see how close the Loyet family is and how they all support each other! Some of you people get too personal and want to make rediculous comments about people! Are some of you people mad that Joe Loyet has money and has chosen to get into the sport of auto racing? We go from talking about a slide job someone did to making personal (maybe jealous?) comments about a person and his dad! ?????
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The great Pat O'Connor was passing Eddie Sachs at Winchester and made contact as he did - he slowed and motioned Eddie to go around him - which he did and Sachs won the race. In victory lane Eddie said "I hope you all saw what Pat did". Which is why Pat was as revered as he was by fans and peers alike, and why HARF's Pat O'Connor award is in so many ways the most important award bestowed on a driver. Looks what happens in NASCAR now days - there has been a dramatic drop in this level of civility and responsibility. in it is often excused as the "move he had to make" Had to? Really.
The ends justifies the means mentality (which has manifested itself at nearly every phase of the sport) is simply wrong, and when officials look the other way they aid and abet this culture. How it gets handled can take many forms - but it needs to be handled in some way. |
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Tim, I have to wonder what was your reaction when Brian was taken out of a transfer spot at Perris in the Midget and the driver who dumped him, got the transfer spot? I was appalled a call was not made in that situation.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I was pissed but never in a million years would I of expected a "call" to be made. After the race Bryan and the other driver talked about what happened and worked it out and believe it or not it was put behind us. The driver apologized and I honestly believe his intent was not to "crash" us as he was battling for the transfer spot with another car as well But if the norm is for these drivers to start looking for the officials to "bail" them out or justify their driving there will be a bigger harm to the sport. Go watch a quarter midget race for an afternoon and you will see what I am talking about, Johnny bumps jimmy, jimmy hits the switch and then they argue for an hour on who gets the call. Another point, I watch a lot of racing and I just don't see the "kids" crashing all these guys that are referred to over and over again on these pages. In fact I bet if someone wanted to do a little research a "kids" slider gone wrong could be countered with a veterans slider gone wrong *** for tat. Tim Clauson |
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Speaking from a race official's standpoint, there are rules designed to discourage BLASTING somebody. Please note the difference between a slidejob and BLASTING somebody. There really is a difference. And any knowledgeable person should recognize and admit this difference. While they are similar tactics, crashing someone to win a race is dishonorable and cannot be tolerated if a racetrack / organization wished to keep good competition happening on a regular basis. Good hard racing with the occasional, skillfully executed slide-job is what people come to see.
From the perch, there's going to be somebody in the official's face on either end. If no call is made, the puntee is wondering why such a horsesh** maneuver has gone unpenalized. If the rough-driving call is made, the punter is telling you how "that was just racing" and how it was a horsesh** call. Half the fans usually like it. Half the fans usually don't. And it is the topic of conversation until the next such maneuver next week. As long as the rules themselves are designed so that the same call can be made EVERY TIME, then I have no problem being the guy to make that call. Open wheeled racing is easy to call - if the car stalls, it needs pushed - throw the yellow and send the stalled car to the tail. If Driver X takes Driver Y to the wall and they both are able to make it back to start/finish - that's a borderline deal. If Driver Y is sitting on the infield after the contact, a penalty is probably warranted. If both cars make it back and they have both made contact with each other at least once, you either penalize nobody and let it happen or you penalize both and put them both at the end of the lead lap. If Driver X plants Driver Y in the third row of the Chili Bowl arena or the Mini Magic Mile, a penalty is warranted. How severe? I use the higher position of "behind who you punted" (assuming they are able to continue) or the end of the lead lap. I've worked at places in Stock Car country that the driver-base thinks you ought to get your spot back if you get punted. This is a great way to ruin your racetrack / series. Whenever you're awarding people positions in this manner, the favoritism card is sure to follow. I don't know what exactly happened at DuQuoin and I don't have the right answer here, necessarily. This is at least my thought process for calling a race. Maybe there are other officials that read this board that could chime in as well. |
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More profound words have never been spoken or written on the subject at hand.
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Me personally I am against judgement calls in short track racing. I think you are opening up a can of worms with those kind of calls. After every race someone will be wanting someone penalized. What I do want is sanctioning bodies and local tracks to pay attention to the races. Have a board of qualified drivers and owners to watch the races. If they see drivers making really stupid moves and driving way over there heads, then talk to them and put them on probation. If this does not fix the situation then exclude them from competing for two events. When they come back if they are still on probation. I think this could really help our sport. Why I do not like judgement calls is like what I seen happen at Bloomington last summer. They penalized Shane Cottle for rough driving when if fact he did nothing wrong. The driver he was trying to pass was the car out of control driving over his head and Shane got into him spinning that car on around. Shane did nothing wrong but got penalized.
What I really liked is the old days when I was a kid then later when I started racing. The drivers took care of there own business. I knew when I rolled on the track I better respect my fellow racer or I was going to pay the price when I came in the pits if I didn't. I Know it will never come back to this in today's world of racing. But if it did come back you would see some drivers driving differently. Racing is never going to be perfect we just have to do the best with what we have. That is why I think that organizations and local tracks should look into having qualified boards to deal with the problem. |
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"The great Pat O'Connor was passing Eddie Sachs at Winchester and made contact as he did - he slowed and motioned Eddie to go around him - which he did and Sachs won the race. In victory lane Eddie said "I hope you all saw what Pat did". Which is why Pat was as revered as he was by fans and peers alike, and why HARF's Pat O'Connor award is in so many ways the most important award bestowed on a driver. Looks what happens in NASCAR now days - there has been a dramatic drop in this level of civility and responsibility. in it is often excused as the "move he had to make" Had to? Really.
The ends justifies the means mentality (which has manifested itself at nearly every phase of the sport) is simply wrong, and when officials look the other way they aid and abet this culture. How it gets handled can take many forms - but it needs to be handled in some way. " Quote from Pat Sullivan Hewitt did this when he was driving for us. He got into Rick Unger while passing him for the lead. Jack pulled over and let Rick back by and raced him clean for the win. |
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With all due respect, what are we going to have, referee's and umpires. The umps' call the strikes and the ref throw's the penalty flag. Do they stop the race right there or penalize at the end of the race. Can we have an owner challenge, do we use penalty box' or timeouts. Is instant replay going to be used or are the officials the see all end all. Just what we need, NASCAR on dirt:thumbsdown:.
A little Jack Hewitt justice goes a LONG way.....:icon_smile_blackeye |
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rules are rules and it dont matter if its lap 1 or 30,rough driving is to be treated the same every time.
rough drive someone and go to the back,do it more than once and the official should trailer you. you have rules and officials to use them,its kinda like laws without cops who would enforce the rules. we dont always like them but as long as they are consisitent it helps us all know the guidelines. |
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