Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Clayton, one of the more popular drivers as of late...has to go put the wing on because the money just isn't there with USAC and non wing shows. Or is that assumption not correct?

Shane Cottle is looking for a Silver Crown ride...good grief the guy has been awesome on dirt miles and he is on here looking for a ride?

What's going on?! Is this just the economy or what?

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

"because the money just isn't there with USAC and non wing shows"

Heck thats nothing new...It's been that way for years.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

The majority of teams give all their profits to the Hoosier Tire Company. If they ( in my case, midget orgs) would do away with the payoffs and perks, we could all buy tires for about $80 and walk away with a little change in our pockets. The big box org is too busy chasing off road vehicles and .25 cars.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Posted via Mobile Device USAC's biggest downfall was the " New Generation" Silver Crown cars. The promotors of the tracks they ran didn't want them to race at their tracks so USAC was paying them to let the New Generation cars race at their tracks ! Why couldn't they have taken all of that money and raised the purses for the sprints and midgets instead of wasting it on those cars that no one wanted to promote ?

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

I think we should just put a cap on the winning (1st place) money. If it only paid, lets say $2,500 to win no matter what but paid really good all the way back through the field maybe you would see more talented drivers in it for the LOVE of the sport rather than collecting a "sallary" from some big millionaire team???

Then again maybe if all the BIG money wasn't there to win, it would bring back some lower budget teams who could again afford to show up and run.

Look at the WoO for example, they pay so much to win, no local (or regular) teams even compete with them when they come to town other than a few Penn Posse teams. They are so HIGH DOLLAR only about 15 - 20 teams travel with them full time because its so expensive. Out of all the Sprint Car Drivers in this country only 15 to 20 are good enough to run with them??? No I don't think so. Once Steve retires I think the WoO will start to fail. People aren't going to pay those rediculous prices to go to the races when the biggest star of all time is not there.

Where are the best drivers gonna come from in the future to keep this sport alive if we don't keep it affordable so they can compete?

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

It's not a big surprise, really. After all, Clayton raced with a wing before coming to USAC...

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Don Woo and The Allstars have a tire rule that is not why non wing is paying less than the wing guys. The fact is all wing races pay better than non wing. It is not the first place money both Allstars and USAC pay 5,000.00 to win. Second on back is where wing is way stronger than the non wing on purse. I believe with the Allstars it is 1,000.00 to run 10th and 500.00 to start. I think you have to run 4th to get a 1,000.00 with USAC. The Outlaws and the Allstars pay show up money plus the purse money. I do not know if USAC pays show up money or not. I do not know the answers but I wish non wing sprint car racing could get close to the wing payouts from 2nd on back.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

But the prestige of competing with USAC should be worth the purse difference. Those winged outfits treat you like they would like to see you come back and run with them again.


Dan Hurst

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Never heard of prestige paying the bills!!!

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Brisky hit it. Back in the early 90s when Frankie Kerr would take the wing off to run some wingless shows he found that out. He ran a USAC show and ran third. When he got his payoff he actually called USAC to tell them that they shorted him a bunch at payoff and USAC told him that what he got is what that position paid.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

all of this can be attributed to the main problem, nobodys in the stands...

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Risky has said right.Usac has been around longer than the woo & all stars and have the lowest purse.I think the all stars also give you 4 cards with your memebership for a reduced price on pit admission.Also they never have an entry fee either.You would think they would be able to pay purse close to the all stars.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

I'm not sure I follow this? Prestige? You where kidding right?? Kevin nailed it!!!!

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

As per the All Star website:

1/29 Ocala Speedway - $3,000 to win
1/30 Ocala Speedway - $3,000 to win
1/31 Ocala Speedway - $5,000 to win

www.allstarsprint.com

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Also, with the All-Starts & Outlaws, I'm pretty sure everyone runs a heat race. If not, I think it's like 55 or 60 cars before they start putting people in non-qualifiers races to try to get into a heat.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Kevin only hit a small part of "IT" and pardon me for being no expert but some things are obvious to USACs pros and cons.

The Pros.
3 different divissions. Could be four with a Gold Crown and Im excluding the .25 focus and consentrating on the top. Provide a wealth of experience in what experience a driver gets

Pavement, IMHO both a pro and a con. IT makes winning a championship harder than dirt alone. The con of it is the enormous cost it adds to the program of any team. Whens the last time a dirt sprinter/midget won a USAC Asphalt show? IMHO All rules should be the same except ride hieght and axel lengths.

The best racing insurance out there...............

The best all around field out there. I totally agree others on this board that on any given night there are 15-20 potential winners compared to a WoOs 5-10 and a good local team can give em a run.

Side by side racing. I have almost given up on wing shows entirely because I seen little side by side racing for more than a lap or two. A NW show often has three our four guys swapping the lead, sometimes multiple times in the same lap. I CAN THINK OF NOTHING More Boring than a Winged Heat race started straight up.

Finally, It still has the eye of some NASCAR and Indy teams. That however seems to be closing a bit with the troubled economy.

The Cons.
Telelvision, Major sponsors want as many people viewing as possible, both of its participants and the series itself. I fully apreciate the simocast that USACracing.com has given. When at all possible I make it. The problem with a website cast though is it does't get your product out to NEW People. This isn't a slam and for all I know something is being worked on. it does kinda surprise me that the USAC/CRA got more exposiur on national media than the NATIONAL series

From what I've seen lately with tires and hookups, You darn near need the Outlaw motor to compete on some of these tracks anymore. But from what I've seen the family of four cannot afford to compete with them anymore on any sort of a regular basis.

Hundred dollar tow money or 200 for 20th don't even come close to putting a dent in travel cost on these PA, CA, AZ, Knox trips. Don't get me wrong, its better than nothing but you aren't going to get many following who can't afford to at least get to the next race and thats barring any repairs.

Like others have said. USAC is basically paying what it did ten years ago and the gate is the same too. This is both pro and con for me. Its pro because I can make more of them than the 35-50 dollar Outlaw shows. The con is were loosing good drivers because the purses aren't higher and there aren't more bigger paying shows.

My Perfect world of USAC?

25-30 dollar gates
5000 to win 500 to start. 150 tow money.
Why there isn't ten 10000 to win shows in the series I don't understand and a handfull of 20-40g to win races

I see some changes for the good being made and bad. Getting Knox back and that 30g show in the midwest is good, Getting PA is good. That catches on and tracks like The Grove and others can pay some higher purses.

Just some views. I said a year ago the big sponsorships and teams can dissapear as fast as they came on the scene. If cost and return isn't the major factor on why Hunter, Ballou, Hockett, MDC and others aren't leaving, What is?

IMHO they will make the major shows that don't conflict and those not in a points hunt near the middle of the season will go where they think they can get the best results.

Who's to say we don't have as much new tallent entering than leaving?

All said and done IMO Id still rather watch Levi, Coondog, Hines, Cottle, Boat and a several others and locals that can compete with them than that follow the leader stuff :)

Chuck, thinking to run for less money, You gotta make it a little less costly to race.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

My favorite driver is one who would race just for the trophy, just so that in 20 years (long after any purse money was spent) he could say he beat everyone one that given night.

The cost of Winged racing has gone up probably ten fold over the last 5 years.
When was the last time the All Stars/WoO significantly raised there purse?

If all of the drivers:crying: really felt that USAC's purses are so bad, USAC should not have any cars show up to any of their races.

Kings Royal - $50,000 to win (probably $3,000 to start), lucky to get 40 cars. If Steve Kinser is .00002 seconds off the fastest car in Hot laps, he goes and changes motors, because he has one in the hauler that dyno'd 5 HP more. Oh Boy!
On the same night, USAC Sprint Week is running, 55-60 cars, for what, $230.00 to start, $4,000 to win.:confused:

I've seen just as good a race with drivers running for $1,000 to win as I have for them racing for 10,000 to win. As a fan, the purse means nothing to me, unless the winning driver was giving a percentage of it to me, or some lucky fan in the stands!

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Good points too KDub :applaud:

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Didn't Bill Rose run the All Stars and/or the Outlaws for the same reasons. Tow Money and better purses?

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

not to put clayton down but how many times did he win a usac race last year?
or ever? yes, he is very exciting to watch and he has a ton of fans because of it but at the end of the day, what has he done besides wad up a bunch of cars?

with this being said.......with so much going out, and not so much coming back, i would have to guess that he has to look for a racing series, class, org, whatever that he can either get more of a return or less of an outlay.

ok........thats clayton.......but to see someone like hockett, who DOES win some races and money, doing the same thing. that, IMO, adds a lot of validity to claytons plan.
the all stars are a regional club and the travel is no where near the outlaws or usac.
the payoff is decent, the competition is ok and it makes a lot of sense for these guys to go run with them.

and should anyone think the WoO is the answer, just look at mc carl, his plan is to go race any race that makes sense and not drag his crap all over the country trying to make a living.
i think we better get use to that mentality for a while cause untill things get back to normal, they are gonna change.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Kevin, Brad made the All-Star feature up at Gas City a couple of years ago and I'm pretty sure it paid $400 to start. It may be $500 now. He made the Friday night All-Star feature at Lawrenceburg in 2007 and it paid $200 to start, which is what a regular show pays. We were quite disappointed with that. We were told that the Saturday night show paid $400 in '07

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

2008 USAC Indiana Sprint Week

$20.00 General Admission
$25.00 Pit Pass (USAC member)
$30.00 Pit Pass (non member)

$30.00 Entry Fee (USAC member)
$40.00 Entry Fee (non member)

$5,000.00 to win
$425.00 to start

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Cecil I may be wrong I thought it was 500.00 to start. Yes prelim shows will pay less to start and to win. Like Sandy posted 3,000.00 to win at Ocala prelims. Like USAC prelims were I think 1,500.00 to win at Perris I may be wrong on that. I am not putting USAC down I am just stating facts that non wing racers are paid less than wing. From local tracks to MSCS, Sprint Bandit and USAC they all pay less than wing. As a fan or a racer I would much rather go to a non wing show because I think you see better racing. I just wish someday that non wing sprint car drivers could make a living doing it like Outlaw drivers can. I am basically retired but I hate the fact that a drivers like Dave Darland, Jerry Coons, Shane Cottle, Jon Stanbrough and the list goes on and on can not make a good living. Yes they love it and would do it for a trophy but I think these guys earn it more than a NFL, NBA, or Major league player does. Times are tough so I do not see it changing anytime soon and you may see the wing purses change. Personally I can not wait for the warm weather and racing to begin. Everyone have a great 2 months and see you this spring.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

I would not drive to Florida to watch a week of non wingy huggy pole bull $hit. But I have been there to watch the winged shows. The wings are so much faster there isn't even a comparison. Get over it.... wings are the fastest and most exciting way.

Im sick of everybody saying non wingy is better and cheaper but look around you, non wing drivers hurt all year long & car owners broke from all the flips.

All the non wingy's are running outlaw or left hand motors to hook up this junky a$$ DT-3 with a OW-96 LR tire, all the titanium parts they can buy to lighten up cars, offset it to the left as much as possible filling the left tubes with lead etc. Whats the difference? Nothing...... look at a USAC team in the pits compared to a Outlaw team and you can't tell the difference. As a matter of fact some of them are the same ...Ive seen it at Bloomington.

Non wingy's don't even compare to a wing car .....get over it. If you like non wingy so much run pavement. Sorry Risky Brisky your one of a kind.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Karl Kinser told my Dad once that to run a full WoO season cost him $500,000. That was 10-15 years ago. He had good sponsors and such and free parts to boot.

This years WoO champion

2008 Season Stats:
Driver Pts. $ Earned Wins Top 5 Top 10
Donny Schatz 9026 $335,845 18 46 58

Sponsored by Armor All & others. I don't think anyone's getting rich on the WoO circuit either unless you are a big name. Maybe 5 guys.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

aceace you are right car owners go broke in both series. They have to have big pockets or big sponsors to follow any circuit. The smaller the organization the less the money most teams spend. Local racers usually spend the least. But from a drivers standpoint 40% of an outlaw driver compared to a non wing racer does not even come close. That was all I was saying is drivers can not make a living in non wing sprint cars. Aceace so have you been playing any cards?

Dave you are right wings are faster but non wing is side by side slicing and dicing. To me non wing racing blows the wing deal away. But do not get me wrong I love them both.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

I love them both. Grew up when it was all non-wing then the area I was in changed to winged. No biggie to me.
And speaking of Bill Rose, yes, he did go to the All Stars due to the money available. I also asked him then if the winged cars were so much easier to drive as all the non-wing fans say they are. He rolled his eyes and laughed. Then he said that if you think driving it in 30 mph faster makes it easier, you are very mistaken. He says that they are two different things. Each requires a totally different way of driving them.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

I seen you do your best driving with a wing Kevin.

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It's an insult for owners and drivers buying pit passes and paying entry fees to entertain the fans. Does the water truck guy or the race officials in the pits buy a pit pass?

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Money hasn't been there in USAC for decades...

Clayton used to run with a wing...

And I think Cottle is just being creative in looking for a ride and using any path (the internet) to let potential car owners know he's available. Smart move....

And let's face it - how many USAC guys do you know run USAC and make a living... and I'm not talking about the big teams, where drivers are offered salaries... I'm talking about independent operations with maybe a mild boost of sponsorship? Exactly....

I'm not bashing the series, I certainly have a love for it - but facts are facts....

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It just has to be said that in the racing sporting world we inhabit today, as fans, as sponsors, as competitors, as owners--any of us--it can't be denied that what floats the average person's boat, if all else is equal, is SPEED. Not only do the winged cars go faster than the traditional sprinters, the sensation of that increased speed is dramatic on the smaller tracks that are the lifeblood of the sport.
Now, we who watch both traditional and winged sprints may know with absolute certainty that all things are NOT equal from a competitive and aesthetic standpoint between the two disciplines. But in any geographic area where the predominant version of sprints to watch are winged, the first impression many fairweather observers have is that the traditional sprints are demonstrably Slower.
So these folks, if they are inclined to watch maybe a race a month or so, are inclined to feel that "bang for their buck" means seeing the fastest go at it. Thus, an entity like the WoO is absolutely ideal for them: they come into town sparingly (optimizing buzz), put up a track record to verify their alpha status, and move on down the road. Crowds may be down these days, but there was nowhere to go BUT down when capacity was the norm only a few years ago.
What this essentially does is put pressure on bodies like USAC to have their product 's house in order to such an extent that the undeniable superiority they possess from an on-track-action standpoint somehow wins the day when the "swing voters"--those who aren't addicted the way most on this here board are--decide to spend their money.
Well, USAC's house is...not..entirely Ordered that way. The Silver Crown Series is an anchor as an expense to the teams, and an albatross around the necks of management, who haven't figured out the way to maximize that division's value since....I give up. Someone tell me. Quasi-fenders; No fenders; Starters; No starters; Mostly dirt miles; Mostly paved supertracks; Stand alone division; Craftsman Trucks's stepchildren; Day Races; Dusk Races (after Nascar's flavor of the day has finally finished). Oy.
We can only hope that we aren't going to live to see the demise of traditional short track racing, but who would want to wager that possibility? For sure, the Heyday is long gone. As in, loooong gone. We can all strive to keep this sport relevant with our moral and financial support, but even from last year to this year there has been a depreciation: As of now, Hockett, Clayton, Ballou, Bacon and Schuerenberg are outside looking in. Or maybe not. Maybe looking forward. If every race last season would have been a top five tussle between just those names, would that not have been a time capsule event? Now, they're subtracted from the show (at least for now--hopefully to return).
Someone asked last week about the "If you won the lottery"-scenario. I'd hope almost any of us would invest in the payout improvements to the teams that compete, just to make it so that they didn't have to grovel for sponsorship just to exist. Hope one of us is holding the winning ticket.

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It is my opinion that more sprint car drivers -- traditional and winged -- make their living today by just racing than at just about any other point in history. You have 10 or 12 guys that do so with USAC. The same number with the Outlaws.

Thirty years ago, very few did. Guys who ran outlaw like Rick Ferkel, Chuck Amati and before that Jan Opperman did. In USAC, no one earned their living just racing midgets, sprints and Silver Crown. Pancho Carter was one of the most successful drivers of the period, but much of his income came from Indy Cars. Same with Tom Bigelow and Gary Bettenhausen. The Kenyons supplemented theirs with their shop in Lebanon. Sheldon Kinser worked construction. Larry Rice taught school. Bob Kinser was a bricklayer.

It was only in the advent of the Outlaws that more than just a handful of sprint car drivers started earning their living racing cars. Whether you like wings or not, they were the catalyst to help make this happen.

Car owners, on the other hand, are a different story. They always amaze me.

And owner-drivers have the toughest row to hoe. The spiraling costs that some teams are willing to pay to win make it very difficult for these folks to survive in the sport they love, a sport that needs these owner-driver teams to survive itself.

Jim Morrison

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

As times get tougher, I don't necessarily think the sport has to disappear. I think the national/traveling (USAC/WOO etc.) stuff might be in trouble sometime down the road but, these racers may just have to live within their budgets and race locally, as many of us do anyway. Clayton, Bacon, Ballou and Schuerenberg all probably had family owned cars before they caught on with the Jeff Walkers, Kasey Kahnes and "Truckers 24Hrs" of the racing world. They may just have to go back to their sprint car roots and run closer to home as the majority of us do. 99.9% of the racers in the sport today have no illusion of making a living driving a sprint car or midget, nor should they. It's just not that kind of sport. Anyone who is making a living at it is doing so at the expense of someone else who can afford to throw the money away. Nobody is "making" money running a sprint car/midget.

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

I am totally against paying more than $5,000 to win in any Sprint Car Race.

What I would like to see is more 2 - 3 day shows that paid the same to win each night with a grand prize for most points or best finishes or a event champion. Pay 1 entry fee, race 2 or 3 nights at the same track, leave the haulers in the pits (with security) and just race.

Have the portable showers come in, food vedors come in like at the fair, etc. Put the FUN into the event for everybody.

Paying GREAT BIG 1st place money just doesn't seem like the answer we are looking for at all.

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[QUOTE=itsanonwingthing;84686]

Kings Royal - $50,000 to win (probably $3,000 to start), lucky to get 40 cars. If Steve Kinser is .00002 seconds off the fastest car in Hot laps, he goes and changes motors, because he has one in the hauler that dyno'd 5 HP more. Oh Boy!
On the same night, USAC Sprint Week is running, 55-60 cars, for what, $230.00 to start, $4,000 to win.:confused:

QUOTE]

hey if a usac'er wanted to race for 50k all he would have to do is STRAP a wing on and head to The Big "E".. LOL:rolling

Re: Should I Be Surprised By This? - What Does This Say About Our Racing?
 

Sceckert hit the nail on the head with this comment
"As of now, Hockett, Clayton, Ballou, Bacon and Schuerenberg are outside looking in. Or maybe not. Maybe looking forward. If every race last season would have been a top five tussle between just those names, would that not have been a time capsule event? Now, they're subtracted from the show (at least for now--hopefully to return)."

USAC started seeing a decline in spectators when Nascar and WOO ramped up their exposure. The same could be said for the dirt late model crowd. What these groups have that USAC doesn't have is recoginzable drivers year in and year out. Nascar has had some of the same names racing for twenty plus years. WOO has Steve Kinser, the dirt late model crowd has Scott Bloomquist...and they promote the DRIVERS! Granted, USAC does have Dave Darland, a perenial favorite..but who else that has been there for years?

Racing fans like to cheer for their favorite guy, and while we all like to see drivers better their career, I wish that some of the guys could afford to stay in USAC so they could build a loyal following. When Tony Stewart left for the big leagues, some of his loyal fans went with him, never to see another sprint car show again. Jason Leffler likely brought some fans with him as well. Could you imagine a speedweek show with all of those guys in ther today? And again next year?

Payout is obviously the issue. If they were able to score a major series sponsor, that could be helped. And that would allow some drivers to be content where they are. You can blame the Jeff Gordon syndrome on alot of this.

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I talked to Ballou at Craig's show today. No wings and no races under 5k to win.Alot of guys will be doing that, at least the guys I talked to. Like I said earlier , real outlaws maybe back.

Also remember, if the drivers good, he can make a living on 40 to 50% of the purse money. Not so for the owners. It is going to be a very interesting season this year.

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I guess Ballou won't be racing much this year. Really makes you wonder where his heart is? Or isn't???

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Your a DOPE:rolleyes:

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all these drivers mentioned are great.... as for the modern day cowboy he should try to win a weekly show.. the only reason there isnt enough money in the nonwing shows is because he doesnt win.. DUH!!! he is lucky to be in the top 4 in a b-main. i know ill catch a bunch of crap outa this but theres gotta be some people behind me. i know he won that race at tri state. did he win anymore shows in indiana??