concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

I would like a non-wing break down from a top non wing team like this.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1689505345187151

I’ve heard double his figures for the very top teams.
I’d say most would be shocked if they knew what even the local teams spend to race wing or non wing.

I saw that. It’s interesting. Dom includes a lot of expenses that a lot of us never consider. But hey, there’s more money in wings, right?

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

For Drivers that are any good yes. However you cut it. 40% of 10k is more than 40% of 5k

Outlaw/HL teams are $8-10K to drop the door on any given race night. The $6K he quotes is probably in line with a regional team. In 1986, it was $200 per day to run the Outlaws per an owner on that tour back then.

Scelzi makes a great point, on how the car needs to pay for some of the gap that the sponsors don't cover. This is where I see the divide between the wing and non wing teams. The wing teams race for bigger purses, which can cover those gaps. They have national branded sponsors as well, so their gaps are much smaller than most Some of the best wing teams will make money or breakeven regardless of the performance on the track.

I've heard some people say those wing guys are stupid and just waste their money to letter trailers and mules...etc.... Maybe its not and there is value in it? If there wasn't value they wouldn't do it, right? They seem to have it figured out. Get more Corporate money, race for more money...etc

I would assume the top tier non wing teams are $3-5K to drop the door on any given race night. Probably closer to $5k on the top 5 teams. This is why the purses in USAC have needed to increase from front to back to cover those gaps for these teams. By year end, some of these teams are on tired motors, running used tires.etc, trying to finish the year.

Non wing only has one national branded sponsor, NOS. So the gaps these teams have are much wider unless they cut down the outflow of expense, which means they are less competitive. If the owner is independently wealthy and wants to spend and needs a tax write off then they can hold status quo.

It comes in all shapes in sizes. It's truly the "circle of life" in the racing world.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Some of those Outlaw/HL guys are on salary too, plus % winnings. Not a bad gig if you can be good enough to get it.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Let Kenny Wallace De-BS it for ya. Contains S words, F Bombs etc. Facebook Coffee with Kenny on RTJ Split in Late models. THE COST IS TOO DAMN HIGH!

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1043939283732130

To give you a little insight on a small budget Sprint Car team spends. Right now for us to drop the gate we are around $2000. That does not include any paid help but does include three pit passes. Does not include wear n tear on parts, no crashes. That is assuming 2 tires get used each night. That’s also coming home each night. Don’t forget with travel now you have hotels and team meals.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Correct me if Im wrong. But I feel a ton of the cost could be contained by limiting compression. I know it would put half these motors out that run today. But man could you extend motor life exponentially. What's the PSI these things hit per compression stroke today? Also think overhead cams getting rid of the rocker system would increase motor life as It seems there is a ton of Valve spring issues.


Now these things are running out of fuel at 25 laps winged on bigger tracks and lasting maybe ten to 15 races. Maybe 25 non wing

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

I was contacted by a non-wing team. Not a USAC regular or a team that runs a National schedule. This is the info they gave me:

These costs below assume no broken parts or pieces.

Description Price Sum
Total Generator Fuel Price $(10.00)
Total Truck Fuel Price $(47.99)
Total Tire Price $(680.00)
Total Pit Entry Price $(140.00)
Total Race Car Fuel $(70.00)
W Motor Cost Price per Race $(240.00)
Crew Food Price $(40.00)
Sum to Run one Race and hurt two rear tires $(1,327.99)
Sum to Run one Race and hurt one rear tire $(987.99)
Sum to Run one' Race with No Tire Wear $(647.99)

One thing that has always irritated me is when talking about this people only talk about the win money. I feel they reason we see a smaller field has much more to do with what 8 -20 pays than the win money.

I would love to hear from a full time USAC team and hear what their figures are.

They must be really close to track and run a small truck to get by on 48 on truck fuel. I can’t run my f250 to circle city or the burg for that much worth out a trailer, closest two tracks to me. Depending on what you do spend on a motor and averaged out over laps I could the price being better or way worse. Figure valve springs alone every handful of races cost close to 1k for some decent but nothing special units. Overhead cam setups are easier on valve guides but nearly as hard on springs. The springs have to be much smaller diameter for ohc systems but not much less stiff. There aren’t really any ohc options out there either. LS or gen 3 hemi would really be the only alternatives, both pushrods. Coyote ford would be the other which is overhead cam but small displacement.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

But that's what Im saying. Get rid of the 410 limit (The running joke is a million to develop every ten HP) internal cam and stack injection rules. with a compression limit it would open up the motor world ten fold and cost half as much, both for motor and rebuilds because some of it would probably be OEM stuff like rods. Pistons. Heads.

I know several are using LS in pavement sprints. Not sure which.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

:44:

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

The fishing must be very, very good; you're going to be out on that lake a long, long time considering how large a can of worms you are opening by talking about changes to engine rules!
What reduces engine costs? Very restricted specifications, and hence, power.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Easily provable the racing can be just as good.

TAKE THE WINGS OFF THEM RACE SAVERS GET 20 drivers willing to do it.
RACE!

I’ve posted on the costs before for our small local non wing team. It takes every bit of $1500 a night to unload the car. Everyone’s travel and engine costs are different I suppose but mine is more than what was posted in this thread. I estimate $80 of diesel, as most tracks we run are an hour and a half away roughly. I budget engine costs at $500 per night. There is no paid help and the car is in my garage so I don’t count any of that.

The easiest way to save costs and not make everyone incur costs with engine rule changes, is to make the rear tires hard as bricks and not have performance fall off. These new tires are better than what they were and budget racers like ourselves can flip them as well. We can get 2-3 nights out of a RR if the track was decent but the performance is definitely better their first night.

Just a random comment that I bet the average fan doesn’t know. At local shows most tracks pay the same to finish 10th as they do 20th and the incremental increases up to the top 3 are pretty small. For instance, at one place 8th pays $20 more than 20th, and 5th pays $80 more than 20th. So it’s really hard for the car to help pay the bills, unless you’re running top 3 every night with a couple wins sprinkled in. Below are the stats from someone who most would say is a top 5 local driver and has 3 non local starts (usac/boss/mwts) where payout might be a bit more. Barring disaster he finishes top 10 every night locally, and 2/3 of the time he’s in the top 5. They’re averaging $550 a night that’s covering their fuel, 1 tire, and their pit passes.

Races: 21
Wins: 1
Top 5: 13
Top 10: 17
Payout: $11,550

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Great summary, TQ97, thank you.

Speaking as a fan with no dog in the fight, so to say, it is my opinion that racing is, always has been and always will be expensive. No matter what level, from Formula One to Hornets, when the sanctioning body makes a rules change to "reduce costs", the overall costs rise as the teams with the most resources spends money to maintain their advantage. That is just how it is and, as a fan, I appreciate all those who give it their all. It is a David and Goliath sport and that is why I love to see a little guy like Trey Osborne or the 4p team, (Peterson?), come rolling in with a pick up pulling an open trailer to do battle with Goliath! Not to signal out those two teams, but all the others who lay it on the line doing something they love. Their passion is what I love to watch and I am forever thankful for the that passion.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

My dog is No cars, No dog.

Gotta find someway to breakup the sprint clubs Three 305s, Two 360s. three LS's and for the elite few who are shrinking in number. combining resources to keep one team not two or three they used to running. INTO A BIGGER FIELD OF ALL SPRINT CARS. The best setup and notebook is almost always going to run up front. They kinda proved that by taking the shock adjusters out of the cockpit for a year.

All I want is this sport to continue and if it can. thrive. Im not seeing this and all I can do is OPINE. Right or wrong I may be.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

50 USAC sprints last Friday and Saturday is bad counts? Exactly how many cars you want for a good show?

High 40's a few weeks back for Maverick for 4 continuous nights?

TSS 40 Late Models with 30 sumthin Mods this past Sunday night on CST also.........You saying these are bad numbers?...........

Not seeing your vision......

:44:

Im betting that an increase in revenues at the track would help increase revenue for the car owners. What are the odds of that happening? Don’t need slower cars. Any track rent garage space at the track? Local driver wouldn't have to tow every week or even own a hauler. Alcohol advertising was a big deal at the tracks, don’t seem to see much of that anymore. With the bizillion craft breweries popping up everywhere surprised to not see cars with these sponsors. And last but not least with the pending legalization of marijuana in all 50 states the race track would be a good place to advertise, ive never smelled weed at the track before. Maybe the racing alcohol could be made from hemp. Im sure i have no idea what the solution would be to make racing more affordable but slower cars are not, ill watch cars drive down the interstate faster.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

I agree with Rpracing1 here. I live in Ohio, which is mainly wing country. We have around 100 410's running weekly in the state. That seems like a pretty good number, and the 305's have helped the car counts. Countless teams have moved up from the 305's thanks to the strong Attica - Fremont division. With 3 to 4 tracks running weekly and series like FAST & OVSCA you would think tracks would struggle. That's not the case. You might see a track at the end of the year pull 16 cars, but that's rare, the fields are usually full.

I understand the costs of racing are high but it seems like car counts have gone up, not down. This topic seems to never end and has been talked about for as long as I can remember.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

2012 MR. G had 117 cars earning points in Indiana alone.

Most I've seen any one night is maybe 70 and thats including races in OH or KY

This is Non wing 410.

Who ran against LPS last weekend. Burg ran a mod show. Paragon off
Boss had a couple at Hilltop and another track.

LPS has a decent base. But you know darn well that except for bigger events USAC average isn't justifying a consi even though they might have one to eliminate a couple cars.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Midwest Thunder Sprints (Non Wing) lists 81 cars have points currently.

I want to be clear that I only responded as a reference point for costs since it was asked and not deemed as me whining. I knew what I was signing up for all those years ago when I brought the first quarter midget home. When I can’t afford it or the interest fades, it’ll be for sale.

As for last weekend’s car count, I believe it was 48 Friday and 45 Saturday. There were no other non wing races except for War at Lake of the Ozarks and they only had 8 or 9. Boss rained out early on Friday and didn’t have a race Saturday. There were plenty of cars who took the weekend off. Car count has remained relatively healthy imo, but I’ve seen a lot more “selling out” posts on Facebook classifieds than I can ever remember, though it’s been primarily Ohio and PA wing guys. There will always be parents coming out of micros with money to try the next level. We moved out of micros to sprints because one night I came to my senses and realized I could have a competitive local sprint car for what I had in the micro. What I underestimated was the running cost, engine refresh, repairs etc. when we moved up. But damn it can be a blast!!!

Yes sir, when you mash the gas on that sprinter, you suddenly realize that if God left anything else more thrilling, he must have kept it for himself, nothing else matters

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

We can pic and choose all we want. go look through Myracepass and you will find many results showing multiple classes with not enough cars to even run 2 heats of 5 or 6 cars

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

I have always said that top heavy purses are killing the sport especially weekly racing.

There was a push a few years ago to have purses pay no more than 3 times the start money but it pretty much died. I feel weekly tracks would be much better if they took the top-heavy money and spread it back through the field.

There are teams who will spend what ever it takes to dominate no matter what, but they are not the teams that are parking their race cars. It's the ones back through the field that can no longer take the big losses we have now.

Heck in the Mo./Kan. area there are many tracks who will not even pay you the start money unless you complete all the laps.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Which tracks are those? Most of the non wing stuff around here is run through the two clubs MWRA/WAR. Does it happen at their shows?

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Exactly this comment. No matter what you do, the big teams will still spend as much money as they can to be dominant. A lot of them teams usually have huge sponsors and other big businesses helping pay for the team.
I could almost guarantee you, if the rules all the sudden became open and they could do whatever they want to, there's going to be multiple teams paying for exactly that, to do whatever they can to beat the other guy.

Look how bad it's gotten with all carbon and Ti now. Teams are spending thousands of dollars for brand new carbon bodies and around $1000 for 1 Ti bolt kit, to save a little weight. Look at the midgets, new rules came out mandating tube thicknesses and made lots of cars illegal. Running thinner, lighter chassis. Just to possibly have a slight edge over someone, even if it meant potentially running a higher chance of injury in an wreck.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

I was talking weekly shows.

I grew up in Central Mo sprint car country. When I moved to the central western Mo border i was surprised to hear this was common at the local tracks. (I stand corrected, you have to take the checkered flag).

I have heard many stories about racers who overheated or such would pull into the infield then pull out to take the checkered flag to get paid some using the starter to get across. I have read track purses that read if you don't finish you get tow money.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Let me clear that up for you a bit. The Midget Rule change was for Chili Bowl cars bringing them into compliance with current USAC and WRG rules.

The Irony is buying TI bolts and hen adding weight..... SMH.

I also noticed a bunch of three spoke front wheels breaking off at last years CB.

A full time crew chief is gonna cost ya, But there the ones finishing about every race and if they're not on the podium,, they're close. They got the parts orders, Wheel magnafluxed, Do a complete tear down every break in racing they get, everything gets the once over or replaced, etc However in many cases they save you $$ in less failures.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

We raced a mini sprint and 360 and 410 winged sprint all over MO and never had to take the checkered flag to get paid. I've never heard of that happening. It's kind of crappy for a track to do that. Most places did force you to start the A or B to get any pay. Some would take care of you even if you had issues in a heat and couldn't continue.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

It wasn't just chili bowl cars. It made pretty much all Stealths illegal and the earlier Elites, which were basically wide body Stealths. Their B pillars are slightly smaller. I can't remember the manufacture, but I thought there were a couple more same also.

They did let a narrow body stealth, an Ellis and wide body stealth race this passed weekend, so i'm guessing they're not teching it.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Occasional top heavy purses really screws a tracks loyal racers. A few top guys come to cherry pick and the local guy that was getting 8th and $400 is now getting 11th and $250. :7::21:

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

https://cdn.dirtcar.com/wp-content/u...-1024x765.jpeg

Referring to the frame drawings in the above link, which is (I think) from the 2023 rules, it would be appreciated if the tubing sizes in the mentioned chassis (Stealth, Elite, etc.) that do not comply can be pointed out, with the non-complying sizes.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

This is the "pillar" in red, I'm referencing. On the stealth's they were 1 1/4 .095. A friend of mine has an Elite and he said they were the same as my Stealth's were. His was an out door car (Don't think Elite made an indoor car.) If I remember correctly they were "lightweight bottom rails also." Don't exactly remember what the bottom rails were though. I was told the newest bigger cage Elites are all legal. At 1 point I had 3 stealth's 1 twister and 1 Boss. Twister and Boss would've both passed with B pillars, neither of the stealth's would've.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Thank you Mr. Corky!
Ironically, the cross sectional area of the 1.25-.095 tubing is greater than that of the now required 1.375-.083.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

True, the cross sectional area of the 1.25 tube is greater by 2%.

But, the section modulus (measure of strength) of the 1.375 tube is 12% greater and the moment of inertia (measure of stiffness) of the 1.375 tube is 13% greater.

Therefore, the 1.375 tube is stronger and stiffer.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

Good to see discussion of this subject. What, if anything, is known of the failure mode(s) that are addressed by this change? Column failure in a roll-over? Transverse failure in a side impact? These two combined?

A slender column of 20-some inches is quite vulnerable to both eccentric column loading and transverse loading. That loading can be reduced by ~1/2 by adding a horizontal hoop that ties together the B-pillars and the A-frame tubes.

Re: concerning a recent thread about costs of racing
 

This thread is a total waste of time. Racers and owners are their own worst enemy. Every single dime you cut on cost in one area will be spent somewhere else. You will never save these guys money. I have a buddy that runs a "Crate" Late Model. He switched into that class to save money. You know motors are "supposed" to cost a fraction. Well guess what to be competitive his motor cost is almost double what it should be. He is saving some money, but nothing like he should be. O ya he is running for far less each night. So anything he is saving by running the lower class he is losing in pay difference.