Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

I would like to have more input from any of you guys that would like to see this series take off. What do we have to do to get other Racers to participate?

Be specific on what you think we need.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

First off we supported sams mscs, now on his new steel block deal, needs to be wet sump,23 degree heads,and one pc injection so u can build a fairly cheap engine you would also get a few mod guys who want to move up but back to the travling deal if all u can afford is a steel block u probaly cant afford to travel alot anyway,and i know u probaly wont like this but they do need a spec tire. also a small wing on top only,just to get indiana promotors interested,something other than what they run weekly,just my input:thumb

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Thank you for your input.
I like the 23 degree head idea, not sure about the wet sump but would like to know why you think thats a good idea? I like the one piece injection but would like to see it minimized to 1 5/8 no matter what, but IF we had a 1 3/4 header it wouldn't matter what size injection you had on it, it would cut the horse power down, but I think I see your point, the 1 piece injections might be cheaper to buy, right?
I have always thought we could run a limited wing class if we made the wings 4x4 or 4x5? Problem there is not sure who makes wings that size or if guys want to run them.
Please keep the ideas coming......

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

I would keep it open to wet or dry sumps, carb or injection to be able to allow many mod and stock car guys to go purchase a 3-5 thousand dollar roller and go compete. Possibly require weight rule for the dry/inj. guys over the other. Also, the 16 square wing is produced by the hundreds in PA for the 358 class by many different manufacturers, and any builder out here would be able to produce them easily if there is a potential market. Just keep it simple.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

I have researched the 1 piece injection and found out that its easy to have a 3 piece inj welded together so that idea isn't gonna work. But if its limited to size it can be checked with a ball on a string dropped into the inj tube quite easily. Also header diameter can also be measered quite easily.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

As a mod racer myself if they were to allow steel block carb motors we would be very interested in joing the series

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

I thought the idea of a steel block series is to make it cheaper for the racer? Why would you add a $400-$500 wing to the series. Plus if you are serious you have to have two of them and the mounting hardware as well. Also you then have to have a bigger trailer to haul 1 or 2 wings around. Wing racing has proven to be unsuccesful in Indiana time and time again. Just my two cents.

Bob Shutt

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

SCORA Steel Block Series invites carb motors, especially the modified guys that are interested in the switch.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

I believe if something were to take off well enough to succeed next year it would have to be primarily motors people have now they can bolt into a car and race. Obviously the steel blocks at paragon aren't going to swap out motor components to go run these races, and for that matter, drive farther for the same payout. Don't think wings would be a great idea at least for now. If you make it easy for someone to do they will be more likely to do it!!!!

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

I ran with ESS and some URC in the east during the 80's with small wings, I would allow for a small top wing but NO:thumb front wing.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Steel blocks, restricted injection, spec 23deg heads or gaskets????
Sounds lilke ASCS/USCS non-wing.
A great idea!!!!!!! There are lots of those engines and parts available.
Then throw in a few wing shows. Market it to tracks that don't run sprints on a regular basis. Wonder how many tracks can't afford a USAC,WOO, ALLSTAR,MASS show?????????????

NO SWAY BARS AND NO WING SLIDERS.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

This may not be a popular post, but I think you are going about this the wrong way. I think that you should have a strong vision of what kind of racing you want to create. Once you have this vision, you then need to hold strong to your beliefs and sell the idea to the racers.

Too many series are ruined by the drivers trying to set the rules. The inmates should not run the prison. It reduces the ******** and the claims of favortism when the promoter has a strong vision of the rules, and is not easily influinced by the drivers about rule changes.

The promoter can do other things to listen to the voice of the racer to make them feel welcomed, but the rule book should be sacred.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

All you have to do to make it fair for everybody ,is to run 12 psi in the RR tire like usac did in the early 80s' 16" RR wheel sit back and watch what happens when the racetrack goes away. the lil motor will shine brightly: checkered:(take away ALLLLL!!! cockpit adjustables) and thats my .02 cents worth!
thanks, Donnie

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Keep the info coming. I would like to see this series grow so that I can run it in a year or two. I am liking everything that I here so far, except for the wing, dont want one. I would like to hear how they will handle the shocks and tires.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Thanks Donnie, I forgot about the cockpit adjustabel shocks and weight jackers. I was thinking that the RR should be limited to how far it could be spaced out. I was thinking 20"???
On the 23 degree head I'm not sure how that could be easily checked??? Anyone with info on that??? With 1 3/4 header (or smaller) and a injection restrictor it won't matter what kind of head you run it won't flow.
I also think this idea of an added $200 prize money for those in top 10 in points to the purse will attract Racers to compete. Something nobody else does!!! Excelent idea!!!

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

I got to agree at least a 100% with the part about the inmates not running the prison, that is what's happened to far too many organizations. If I were you, I'd consider patenting that "phrase". Bob:applaud:

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

no wings.... other than that sounds good

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Real nice comparing owner/drivers to inmates!!!!!!!!!

I think Sam getting input and making his own mind up is a great way of looking at the big picture and getting cars to support the series.

On the 23deg heads-no shaft mounted rockers is one way to check.

Make them run gaskets/injector sleeves(restrict the flow) and run what they want or have.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

What is the SCORA and where can I find info on them Thanks in advance

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

like fox posted i am one of those who don't wanna drive rite past paragon to race for thw same money even of it is against more equal cars I am 20 minutes from paragon and a good two hrs from danville. I dont think the two dollar a gallon fuel will stay around long that is what the speculaters are saying and they where the reason for four dollar fuel. Also 20" rr from the frame would be a joke i would just offset my car so i could still use a long spline axle and get it 19" from the rr arm. on the tire rule i say let'm all run so we can get good used tires from the outlaw teams located all around indy. I have worked on usac teams and i dont see where the dt3 saved much because of all the extra tire prep and as soon as that thing looses and edge we'd junk it. there are still gonna be some guys with money try to run this series because they cant cut it in usac or whatever. Cherry Pickers! That will be hard to control. My experience with rules is the more rules you have the more people spend trying to brake them. make it outlaw racing where you have to engineer a P.O.S. and the real thinkers will prevail not the spenders:applaud:

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

DGNJR71, To answer your questions. SCORA is the new Sprint Car group that will run steel block engines. It stands for Sprint Car Owners Racing Association and was put together by Sam Stockon Sr. out of Terre Haute. Alot of information can be found on IOW in the posting of Steel Block Sprint Car Group. You can read all the comments of everyones ideas of how it should be run. Guys don't waste your time for it is almost completed, if you have any questions get ahold of Sam Stockon Sr. (Organizer) SCORA Sprint Series, 4501 Gaslight Estates PL124, Terre Haute, Indiana 47892 phone 812-249-0044, Email sstockonsr@games.com

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

it will be hard to make any racing cheap i know guys with $20,000 in a bomber to race for $200 to win it is possible to put that kind of money in a cutlass. So a sprintcar where the expensive stuff is avlailable with no research. That will be hard to where a $15,000 car wins most of the races. hopefully Sam can make it happen. What about north vernon or putnamville maybe brownstown? I know danville is dedicated to it but some of these other tracks surely would run us if we garunteed 20 cars. I dont think 20 is an unreasonable number

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Not sure on the tire rule but the dt3 does seem like the best choice. After we see what kind of steel block engine we have to compete with and the cost of fuel to tow to danville we might see the big picture. We will never know if we dont try. SUPPORT THIS SERIES.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

There was a 360 sprint car club that ran around here about 16-17 years ago.I cant remember right off the top of my head what it was called but my dad and myself was helping Billy Throckmorton then and he ran in this group.I think they had steel blocks and a limit on injection but dont know what it was.I believe they ran a spec rr tire to.I would half to ask my dad exactly what the rules was I was kind of young.We started helping John Althouse after that and he had been running it off and on to.Ill try to get more info.Of course that series isnt around anymore so maybe my info wouldnt be to good.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

That was the Hoosier Sprint Car Club. I ran with them and it was nice group. Dan Metzinger was the manager of the organization. We ran quite a bit at Montpelier and I remember races at Danville, Terre Haute, and they even tried an ashpalt show at Plymouth. Sam Stockon Sr.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Yeah I knew Metzinger was part of it because that is when Jason his boy was driving.It was a pretty fun group to run with that I remember.I remember going to Michigan a few times with Billy to.I remember the Slade brothers running up there and I think it was Eric Slade that put his car in about the 50th row of corn outside turns 1 and 2.Billy was getting his motors from Joe Roush's dad then.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

i think that as long as you have a steel block everything else can go ! for one if you start saying specific injection or headers or heads alot less people will be interrested in the series because of the money they will have to spend to be legal. and as far as a spec tire i think a right rear DT3 would be good because they are cheaper and as far as i know everyone besides paragon has the DT3 rule so these same guys could in fact participate at other tracks without having to buy new tires. And besides its only the first season lets see what happens? Good luck Mr. Stockton

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

I ran with the Hoosier Sprint Car Assoc. too, and it was a lot of fun. If I recall correctly, their tire rule was "any used tire":O: I say keep it simple. If you have a steel block, you're in. There will always be over funded teams that kind of spoil the fun for the shade tree mechanic, and I'm sure you will have that with this group as well. That's okay. Keeping the payout window under $1000 to win will keep most of the guys who have lots of money going to places where they pay lots of money. On the other hand, if you can, pay well DEEEEEP into the field. Give the guy who runs last or doesn't make the show enough money to have paid for his evening. He'll come back. Let the the modified guys see that they can make $200 a night to run last in a sprint car vs. $20 to run last in a modified. I would not make this a winged series. Wings are expensive. It is difficult to carry a spare wing on an open trailer. Wings make big motors more necessary. Wings eat up tires. $.02

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

a 4x4 top wing "only" will make it "look" like a cheap class. leave the wings off.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Steel block, no wing, small right rear, all else goes. Let the fancy injector guys see if they can hook up.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

This will probably hit a soft spot for some people but I don't care. In my opinion, if the purse is not raised and your not running for at least 1200 to win, then basically your starting a Paragon traveling series. I have been reading every single post and there have been some very good ideas. But if you don't raise that winning purse, your going to be promoting a group of racers that are going to be tough to promote. Give the people in the stands someone to root for. Now I'm not saying lets get USAC racers to spot in this series, (thats what ruined sprintcar racing) but I do believe to help this series grow you (from a promotor standpoint) are going to want to see a majority of your promotable local teams come over. I completely agree with keeping the competiton fair and close. Put the simple steel block motor in the car, limit the horsepower, put a weight rule on the cars minus driver to keep the titanium parts away and throw the green. :greenflag:

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Hey Os,
IF I understand Sam correctly, there is $200 extra money to the winner if he is in the top 10 in points. Aslo Sam already stated that this is JUST A STARTING POINT to get this series rolling. But don't forget the reason Sam is trying to start this series, its for the blue collar racer ON A LOW BUDGET.
I know this is a for the most part this is a "non wingy" web site but I as a driver would still rather drive a winged sprint over a non wingy any day. Im tired of all the "trick" parts you have to buy to keep up in the "non wingy" thingy.
I hope this series takes off with firm roots in the ground and stays focussed on its intentions.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Needs to be atleast 1000 to win. you can race a mini sprint for a lot cheaper racing for 1000 to win.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Osborn

you make a good point,, and i can see the vision you have. your wanting a good tough competitive series thats under a blanket. nothing wrong with that and your right, restricted rules like this series would have anybody could win, it would make it a very exciting series to keep up on. i dont know why everyone is looking the other direction on payout. i dont think they understand that under the hood they would have the same as every competitor. it would come down to driver and setup. do they lack confidence? to be able to whipe the rust off the wheels, there needs to be a decent payout, no questions asked. yes this is designed for a low budget blue colar whatever kind of racer, news flash, everyone is low budget. the only difference is some teams have kids daddy's that pay them, some teams have sponsors, and some teams have neither. a lot of the top teams are closing the doors every single year. a series like this could revive that if you made the right moves. i can tell you right now 600 to win isn't going to cut it.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

I'll jump in again, because I was one of those guys who raced my iron block against all the aluminum blocks in the 90's and got my helmet handed to me weekly, and there were a hand full of us there every week. $600 to win won't draw your big names. No doubt. I think that is the point. On any given night at a race that pays $1200 to win, there are 19 or so guys who aren't going to take that check home, and there are 10 or more who are going to get the "to start" money. Now if we are looking at a steel block series, I think it is safe to assume that the guys who would even consider such a deal are not the high rollers of the sport, and if they aren't, chances are, they were NEVER the guy taking home the $1200 to win. They got the $75-$150 to show up or whatever the amount. They also are not the guys who can afford to tow all over the state(s) for the $150. They just cannot afford it. So, my suggestion is to pay well to the guy who shows up. You might be surprised to see how many do when they know they have most if not all of their fuel and pit pass money covered. I know modern day sprint car racing is not about who is the most talented. It has moved away from who is the best driver, mechanic, manager, and salesman (to a degree), to for the most part, who has the most money. I don't believe that is what the spirit of this group is intended to be. This series sounds like it's for the guys who want to be a part of it without going broke, or commiting to something where they know before the green flag ever drops, that they don't have a chance of even cracking the top ten. This series has a lot of potential. I just hope it doesn't all end up about the money. If I can tow to wherever USA and race against big money for big money and most likely come away will next to nothing, or tow to wherever and know I'm going to get at least $XXX for showing up,.....I don't have to think long about it. Maybe I'm way off base here. However they decide to run this deal, I wish them the very best, and much success.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

And I'll stick my nose in again. We didn't put more money on the win, but we picked up the purse on all positions on back. This seemed to breed some respect into the racers and it cleaned up the show considerably. The big thing was, we weren't wrecking cars and the guys from 10 to 20th had enough money to come back next week. At the end of the year, our car count was up! Including a lot of wingy guys that were tired of busting their but for nothing.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Any room for another "nose"? That's, the payoff, is something I've been arguing about for several years, but it seems to be locked in on "winning". I feel like anytime, anyone spends the money to put on a "show", he/she should be rewarded. My argument has always been, "how many seats, in the stands, are full, just because of one car/driver"? And, how hollow a win is, when you are competing against maybe 10-15 other drivers. The guys that are there every event, and sometimes never make a feature, are the guys who are paying the purse, and bringing fans into the pits and stands, without THEM, there would be no reason to have a race, it could be done with a coin toss. I'd like to see the purse, be it Sprints, Tin Tops, minis, Tq's, whatever, spread all over the piece of toast, not just on one end, that's what, in my humble opinion, keeps the average racer, coming back, and supporting the track, or club, or whatever. If you feel like $600.00 to win, and break it down slowly, til you cover the field, that took the time and money to appear, is sufficient, then do it, I'd say you'll have a good following, the winner, still is the winner, and 2nd thru the guy that goes home early, still get a share of the "show", and don't even think about quitting, as they travel back home. Thanks! Bob:respect:

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

To add to what TQ29m said, Consider going back to paying for the heats. $75/50/25 first three spots each heat. Goes a long way toword spreading a little money out to everyone.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

TQ29 that is the way the SCORA Sprint Series payoff is set up. 600 instead of 1000 to win, but the money is through the field with 150 to start the feature not just 100. Been around along time and my later years of compeating I was a field filler and always complained about the same thing. The number of cars that show up at every race, but stand little chance of running up front still need money to continue paying expenses. Sam Stockon Sr.

Re: Need More Input on Steel Block Series
 

Sam, as far as I'm concerned, that's where the problem exists, you ever hear a "winner", squeal, after being a "filler"? Here's the thing, whether you think it or not, some drivers "know", their chances of being a "winner", are slim to none, but to have that "rubbed in", by not getting a part of the share of the purse, eventually leaves a bad taste in your mouth, on the way home, and it becomes harder to get that car ready, to go back, and take that financial beating again. Bob :)