Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Any thoughts on the midget count for Xtreme in Kansas this weekend. I was shocked that POWRi could only pull 7 for Lucas Oil Speedway last weekend. I remember when the Spring POWRi dates in Missouri was a 30+ field.

I guess the following weekend will give us the true health of midgets in the Heartland as it will be USAC's time for midgets in KS and Mo.

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

at least 9 kkm

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Seems like Xtreme averages around 14 cars right?

...but I think we are starting to finally see a time when people are out of $. Maybe the country is tired of living off their credit cards...

I know sprint cars are still pulling #s in, but its gona spread pretty thin once every track opens and its not raining in half the country...

If the three groups would work together Usac PowrI and Xtreme. I think the fields would be very good I realize there’s different thoughts from different groups, but coming all together would benefit everyone especially the fans It wouldn’t have to be your full schedule for several races through the years with all three groups I think would definitely be a benefit for midget racing. Can’t we all get along?😎

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by California Mike:
Can’t we all get along?😎

The obvious answer is NO. Tracks and Sanctions will continue to work against each other till the fans quit coming due to lack of counts.

Hate to say that, But there it is.

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

For a relative success story in Midgets look to the Badgers.
Why?: A stabilized engine specification of reasonable cost.

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner:
For a relative success story in Midgets look to the Badgers.
Why?: A stabilized engine specification of reasonable cost.

The real answer/story to the original post will be to compare the numbers that show up to Kankakee and Sycamore this weekend with what show up to the Extreme, PowerI, and USAC shows. Arguably, there may be more USAC legal cars sitting in garages than there are BMARA legal cars, yet car counts at the tracks don't align. That tells you a lot about what drives car owners and drivers to show up at the track. Reasonable engine costs to be competitive are the only real difference.

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner:
For a relative success story in Midgets look to the Badgers.
Why?: A stabilized engine specification of reasonable cost.

I agree, the only thing growing is stock block based and most of them aren't moving up. Big huge difference in 70k motor you have to rebuild every 7-15 races and 25-35k motors you could run all year, including half miles.

There's still too much money flyin around to ban the TRD's XR-11s etc and make the Stock Block the national. There's still the added expense of travel etc to do it.

The other poster is right. Easily 300-400 midgets out there and two third of em sit for 95% of the races. They have their reasons, I don't question that. It's not my $$$

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by jdull99:
Seems like Xtreme averages around 14 cars right?

NO!

March 15 DuQuoin - 39 cars
March 16 DuQuoin - 40 cars
April 5 US 36 - 23 cars
April 6 Sweet Springs - 28 cars
April 12 Farmer City - 25 cars
April 13 Farmer City - 26 cars

https://xtremeoutlawseries.com/

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by California Mike:
If the three groups would work together Usac PowrI and Xtreme. I think the fields would be very good I realize there’s different thoughts from different groups, but coming all together would benefit everyone especially the fans It wouldn’t have to be your full schedule for several races through the years with all three groups I think would definitely be a benefit for midget racing. Can’t we all get along?��

USAC and Extreme are working together on the schedules.

https://xtremeoutlawseries.com/midge...r-2024-season/

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner:
For a relative success story in Midgets look to the Badgers.
Why?: A stabilized engine specification of reasonable cost.

I know that I was the guy that asked the question about car counts, but I hate this solution. I strongly agree that we need to have a stabilized spec engine class for midgets. I would also argue that it needs to be a common rule set across the nation so we dont become like the modifieds and every track has 4 classes of modifieds each with a unique rule class that limits them to three tracks. I could even see a track hosting a D2 event for everyone in the nation like the IMCA nationals in Boone.

However, I do not believe that all midgets in the country have to be the same. I do not have issues with a national midget costing more than a D2/Badger midget. I do not have issues that the local yocal can not compete against the KKM's of the world.

At some point, USAC/Xtreme/POWRi may come to a cross roads like Badger did a decade ago and have to make a dramatic shift to save the sport, but at this point, I don't think we are there.

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by Vookie:
NO!

March 15 DuQuoin - 39 cars
March 16 DuQuoin - 40 cars
April 5 US 36 - 23 cars
April 6 Sweet Springs - 28 cars
April 12 Farmer City - 25 cars
April 13 Farmer City - 26 cars

https://xtremeoutlawseries.com/

Good info. I was thinking of last season though; and not "off-season" events (like indoor shows that can attract more cars). I will research later on that. I am certain the Xtreme car count topic has come up on this forum before...maybe it was Hoseheads tho...

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

This subject comes close to home; in northern California the BCRA operated a Midget schedule successfully since 1939. The rules were essentially those of USAC. Eight years ago the pavement show ended; promoters were somewhat less than thrilled with 5 cars. The dirt operation, such as it is, continues only in conjunction with USAC Western States Midgets. For many participants, be they Owners or Owner/Drivers, the lack of willingness to entertain some method of equalizing performance over the range of engines now in use put 80% of the cars in the trailer and locked the door. A year ago an attempt to revive some interest brought only shrugs. It is indeed true "You don't know what you've got until it's gone."

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner:
This subject comes close to home; in northern California the BCRA operated a Midget schedule successfully since 1939. The rules were essentially those of USAC. Eight years ago the pavement show ended; promoters were somewhat less than thrilled with 5 cars. The dirt operation, such as it is, continues only in conjunction with USAC Western States Midgets. For many participants, be they Owners or Owner/Drivers, the lack of willingness to entertain some method of equalizing performance over the range of engines now in use put 80% of the cars in the trailer and locked the door. A year ago an attempt to revive some interest brought only shrugs. It is indeed true "You don't know what you've got until it's gone."

Think ARDC was around longer. Also not running this year.

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by jdull99:
Good info. I was thinking of last season though; and not "off-season" events (like indoor shows that can attract more cars). I will research later on that. I am certain the Xtreme car count topic has come up on this forum before...maybe it was Hoseheads tho...

I was wrong...I did a quick look, and found a few with 14/15 cars, but looks like all the rest had more full fields. That is good. & I shouldn't have trusted what I read on one of these forums last year! (someone said they were lower counts...my fault for not checking into it more though...)

https://xtremeoutlawseries.com/resul...series=midgets

https://xtremeoutlawseries.com/resul...series=midgets

https://xtremeoutlawseries.com/resul...series=midgets

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner:
This subject comes close to home; in northern California the BCRA operated a Midget schedule successfully since 1939. The rules were essentially those of USAC. Eight years ago the pavement show ended; promoters were somewhat less than thrilled with 5 cars. The dirt operation, such as it is, continues only in conjunction with USAC Western States Midgets. For many participants, be they Owners or Owner/Drivers, the lack of willingness to entertain some method of equalizing performance over the range of engines now in use put 80% of the cars in the trailer and locked the door. A year ago an attempt to revive some interest brought only shrugs. It is indeed true "You don't know what you've got until it's gone."

I spent the summer of 2008 in Southern Wisconsin and fell in love with Angell Park and Badger midgets. That was around the time that Badger started talking seriously about something having to change. When the USAC guys were in town, the car counts were great. When it was only a Badger show the car counts really started to suffer. I only stayed in Wisconsin for one year, but have followed them since.

If I remember correctly, there was a year or two when there were two midget groups in Wisconsin. Badger decided to go to with the new "restricted" engine and the other group still wanted to run the national motor. (need someone to fact check me here)

This is also around the time that Angell Park went from a midget only track to hosting other events.

Sometimes change has to happen and there is no choice, and at some point National midgets may have to go to a different engine package. I just don't think that day is now.

P.S. pretty excited to drive down to Humboldt after work to see Xtreme in action tonight.

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by Jonr:
I spent the summer of 2008 in Southern Wisconsin and fell in love with Angell Park and Badger midgets. That was around the time that Badger started talking seriously about something having to change. When the USAC guys were in town, the car counts were great. When it was only a Badger show the car counts really started to suffer. I only stayed in Wisconsin for one year, but have followed them since.

If I remember correctly, there was a year or two when there were two midget groups in Wisconsin. Badger decided to go to with the new "restricted" engine and the other group still wanted to run the national motor. (need someone to fact check me here)

This is also around the time that Angell Park went from a midget only track to hosting other events.

Sometimes change has to happen and there is no choice, and at some point National midgets may have to go to a different engine package. I just don't think that day is now.

P.S. pretty excited to drive down to Humboldt after work to see Xtreme in action tonight.

The two groups of "National" midgets - in WI area - was in 2010 (the one called "APSARA" only lasted 3 races - we were at all of them. Won a trophy dash and took 2nd, to Davey Ray, in the last feature...the car count that day was comparable to the last POWRi race...lol). The rules were the same, for both versions of "national midgets" (as far as I recall). Bmara didn't start making any efforts to entertain any new major rules until 2015 (Christopher Bell was the 2014 champ, if that tells you anything...lol). 2015 was a mix (restricted national engines, and the new 2.4s). 2016, and on, was all 2.4L only, and no more "National" engines were allowed (restricted or not). I'd like to think most people would agree it has gone well for them. I enjoyed watching both the Badger show and the USAC race at APS last Labor Day (that was the only event I made it to last season). Both groups of cars are plenty fast.

Now there was/is a 2nd club midget club out of Joliet/Grundy area; that Laverne Spencer started; the restricted OEM engine type / cost effective tire deal back in late 80s/early 90s. It was called the Sportsmen midgets then IRS, now Midwest Mayhem Midgets. Most of the time it was pavement based, but around those years (mid-2000s thru I'll just say mid to late 2010s, they ran dirt, including APS - the same nights Badger did. Many "National midget" people didn't have much to do with them - we ran both, as often as we could. We won the IRS feature in 07 at APS. Kurt Mayhew won many of those races around that time, at APS and the such).

Disclaimer; to dispel the keyboard warriors/clarification: The only time Badger had anything to do with restricted engines was that 2015 year. And everyone should know their 2.4L rules are different than other clubs (If I don't say it, someone else will...lol). But I think everyone (yes, including me) can agree it has worked for them.

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

I want to point out a couple things here.

The Badger Midgets are nowhere close to D2. If anything they are more like USAC & Xtreme. The only difference between a Honda running in USAC and Badger is that Badger is a max cubic inch limit of 148.82 (vs USAC at 154cid) and no head porting (USAC wide open head porting.) That's it. Otherwise they are the same.

The only thing similar between D2 and Badger is they both require a production based platform. I am not a fan of D2 because they write rules to "restrict" virtually every aspect of the engine, but then can't enforce the majority of the rules they write. There is a camshaft supplier who openly admits to selling cheater cams to a large number of D2 racers. Writing rules that cannot be enforced only hurts the honest racer.

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

I have to agree with the rules that can't or won't be enforced, makes for even more cheating I once bought a pavement midget out of Ca, just to get the basics to build an inexpensive D2 for Dirt, than was told I couldn't run the engine that I had bought, but no explanation as to why, could have been the wrong color, but no reasons were given, I sold what I didn't need, but still have the engine, and parts to build what I wanted to begin, but with no more interest than was provided, I now have grown too old to want to do that, any more

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by jdull99:
The two groups of "National" midgets - in WI area - was in 2010 (the one called "APSARA" only lasted 3 races - we were at all of them. Won a trophy dash and took 2nd, to Davey Ray, in the last feature...the car count that day was comparable to the last POWRi race...lol). The rules were the same, for both versions of "national midgets" (as far as I recall). Bmara didn't start making any efforts to entertain any new major rules until 2015 (Christopher Bell was the 2014 champ, if that tells you anything...lol). 2015 was a mix (restricted national engines, and the new 2.4s). 2016, and on, was all 2.4L only, and no more "National" engines were allowed (restricted or not). I'd like to think most people would agree it has gone well for them. I enjoyed watching both the Badger show and the USAC race at APS last Labor Day (that was the only event I made it to last season). Both groups of cars are plenty fast.

Now there was/is a 2nd club midget club out of Joliet/Grundy area; that Laverne Spencer started; the restricted OEM engine type / cost effective tire deal back in late 80s/early 90s. It was called the Sportsmen midgets then IRS, now Midwest Mayhem Midgets. Most of the time it was pavement based, but around those years (mid-2000s thru I'll just say mid to late 2010s, they ran dirt, including APS - the same nights Badger did. Many "National midget" people didn't have much to do with them - we ran both, as often as we could. We won the IRS feature in 07 at APS. Kurt Mayhew won many of those races around that time, at APS and the such).

Disclaimer; to dispel the keyboard warriors/clarification: The only time Badger had anything to do with restricted engines was that 2015 year. And everyone should know their 2.4L rules are different than other clubs (If I don't say it, someone else will...lol). But I think everyone (yes, including me) can agree it has worked for them.

Thanks for the fact check.

When C Bell won the Badger championship, wasn't that the year that Kenny Brown was the promoter at Angell Park and had a lot of co Sanctioned races with POWRi?

Originally Posted by Jonr:
Thanks for the fact check.

When C Bell won the Badger championship, wasn't that the year that Kenny Brown was the promoter at Angell Park and had a lot of co Sanctioned races with POWRi?

Yes

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

http://www.bmara.com/standings/2014/4028/1037

https://thethirdturn.com/wiki/Christ...sociation/2014

I didn't go to the banquet that year ("only" ran p/t in the bmara micro division - winning our final heat race ever at Angell Park - as we took a top 10 in points in the modified 4 cylinder stock car NASCAR tier4 or whatever it was, class at the now defunct Rockford Speedway); but I have wondered ever since; did Christopher show up for his championship hardware? (I really do think it is cool to say he was a BMARA champ. Not too many people most likely realized that).

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

Originally Posted by Jonr:
Thanks for the fact check.

When C Bell won the Badger championship, wasn't that the year that Kenny Brown was the promoter at Angell Park and had a lot of co Sanctioned races with POWRi?

It was a nice trip down memory lane...lol. I think I got most of it correct...

(...since you kinda mentioned it, lol - and it was this time of year, the 2nd/3rd/4th weeks of May); Those APSARA races do not exist online (that I can find). There was some legit competition (in addition to Davey); I think Jerry Coons won the 1st one, but the race I mentioned (the last one) also featured future bmara champs David Budres & Robbie Ray and bmara feature winners Daniel Robinson & Kurt Mayhew; & my buddy (IRS Wilmot feature Winner) Eddie Sauer. I'll be forever thankful for the crew help and brand-new right rear tire (rare for our team to have) purchased by former bmara driver Jake Slotten. I'll never get in the bmara HoF (which I do think is very cool that they are doing); but if there was an APSARA HoF, I'd like to think I'd have a shot...;).

So enough about that. Good to see some cool young winners of last weekend's Badger races & full speed ahead for those involved as they get into the heart of the season.

ARDC was also established in 1939.

Re: Midget counts this weekend for Xtreme
 

The scary thing about the midget car counts is that in a night of 20 cars, how many of those cars are owned by just a handful of people? When one team brings 6-8 cars that's 30-40% of the field. What happens when that guy decides to fold up shop and go wing sprint car racing? Or what if Toyota pulls out of midget racing and stops subsidizing the engines? Or what if he doesn't like a rule and boycotts?

The only series thinking long term success right now is Badger. There are no big multi car teams. They have 30+ cars fairly regularly and no engine subsidies. Their races are all close to their home base so travel costs are reasonable. There are some things that can still be improved, but the series is strategically and purposefully set-up for the long haul.