Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

Wisconsin WingLess Sprints.

Thoughts

Whatever they do to keep the competition close with the rules. I might be more of a so-called tin top fan, but I absolutely love it.

Last night I went to Wilmot Raceway for the World Of Outlaws Sprint Car Series show and it was fantastic. The show also included the Wisconsin WingLess Sprints & the IRA Lightning Sprints.


32 World Of Outlaws Sprint Cars
24 Wisconsin Wingless Sprints
23 IRA Lightning Sprints

The feature in all 3 races were great.

The competitiveness with the Wisconsin WingLess Series is really good. I am somewhat surprised another track hasn't tried to start a division like this with the exact same rules.

Not sure if a division like this would work in Indiana at a track like Montpelier, Shadyhill, or any other track across the U.S., but it's awesome to see them get a full field every night. I'd love to know what the standard payout is for them each week.

It looks like they average about 35 or cars on a regular race night which is really good considering the economic times we live in.
I am kind of surprised no other track has pickup up this division in their region. Understandably it may not work in some areas because fans love a certain type of races cars rather it be fender cars or open wheel cars. Why not try and give it a shot.

The wingless feature last night was really good with passing all though out the race and finished with a past lap pass down the back stretch going into turn 3.


ALSO props to the track prep crew at Wilmot. They absolutely f'ing nailed it to a T.




Panoramic View just before the features started.
https://i.imgur.com/hobZhGI.jpg


IRA Lighting Sprint Feature
https://i.imgur.com/fPL6y7r.jpg


Wisconsin WingLess Sprint Feature
https://i.imgur.com/qVXeUlF.jpg


World of Outlaws Sprint Car Series Feature
https://i.imgur.com/2Kd5nC5.jpg

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

They ran against USAC a couple weeks ago and had about fourty Also seen em at Gas City and they had a huge count. This is what Im talking about as a entry class. However I think they're about a hundred hp down from what they should have. I say this because to go forward it looked like drivers had to drive beyond the cars capabilty. Such as hold it on the floor and rip the lip. thus causing several flips.

I believe they're a 604 motor class which is about 500hp. I'd preffer about 6-650hp that way you'd get some wheelies and response in the pedal

Most of the pavement sprints aren't running 900hp+ monsters and I don't think other than qualifying it's ever used in heat and feature racing. But the motors are expected to last 60-80 races between rebuilds.

That being said, They had a following, WHen I went to Gas City, There were several groups of fans that came down from Wi. to watch.

I generally just don't like the cratemodels or these, Just not enough power to break the wheels loose and rip. Gaining is like half a car per lap on the car in front. I could be wrong and often am. Just my view as of now.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

Keep the HP where its at...I continue to say its kinda like a Silver Crown style of sprint car racing...it needs to be different, or u might as well just have 410s...

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

Thanks for the compliment.
I am the tech inspector for the Wisconsin wingless sprint series.
it just so happens that I will be retiring and moving back down to central Indiana in the near future.
Will be looking for something to do when I get down there so if there is any interest in doing this in Indiana let me know.
604 crate engines with a strong tech program.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

Thanks for the response, If you could give some more info on the class. Like motor suppliers, cost and general life expectancy of motors. Tire compounds etc. That would be great.

I believe Plymouth when it was dirt tried to get A 604 sprint class going but didn't get the support they were looking for.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

They did. The class at Plymouth was a 604 wing sprint. Had it been a non-wing sprint with the same rules Wilmot had I think the division might have had a chance to take off and succeed.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

The class at Plymouth was a 602 crate engine with wings and it was just not a good combination.
This wingless series is a 604 crate that is allowed to be freshened within the specs of the 604 crate engine manual.
We run the same tires as the IRA but I suppose in Indiana they could run the same as USAC.
Spec is a 650 CFM carb from ATM innovations and a 6700 RPM rev limitWeight rule of 1500 pounds tech is rugged. We pump, Whistle, Check valve springs, lifters, fuel etc.
we only had 24 cars this week because the outlaws only wanted our top 24 in points.

If I were going to start a new non-wing Crate class I'd look hard at using CT525s.

Cost vs. HP vs. Reliability there's not much on par with an LS-based engine.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

I agree the horsepower is more but so is the costs.
The 604 crate can run more races that the CT motor before needing freshening and there is a very detailed manual for the 604 complete from torque specs to part numbers for everything along with baseline procedures for rebuilding and inspecting.
I still think something like this would take off down there.

As long as there is a good tech person in place and tech is properly and efficiently handled. With all those rules comes a lot of grey area seekers. Aren’t the crate engines sealed? Serial numbered?

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

I live in Wisconsin and have seen them race at 4 different tracks. And watched them at Gas City twice. I have yet to see what I call a good race. I agree under powered and the other problem is they run with the IRA, And they kill the track for this class. JMO

I’ll agree with that statement, for sure!

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

Must have not been at Wilmot Saturday night.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

I have watched them at two different tracks and think every show that I saw them at has been great. Word is pay is on the support division level, and they still get all the cars talked about, so it might be back gate show many times; no matter what everyone thinks about watching them.

Jason- Agree!
Best Regards,
John

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

I think this works because Wisconsin has no other non wing class. Look at places that added crate late models. How many now run late models and how many cars do they get? If we started a class like this in Indiana, all it would do is divide the cars even more. Doubt if you would draw many fans to see a couple of 12 car features. Short track racing is a pretty small pie. You can only split it up so many ways. I personally think that it is too split as it is.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

And adding this 95% eliminated the Winged class at Wilmot, but that was fading some before this class started

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

I’m not to sure if this class was at Montpelier or Shadyhill it would take away cars for the 410 division thats way I specifically mentioned those two track.

I personally would like to see the raceceiver 305 s try a few non wing shows. I know that they held a vote at one time and that got voted down. I could see some 600 racers head that way.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

If it was once a year, I would agree. I think you would have people who are not running up front now, Bailing and stepping down. Look at how many names in the 305's came from 410. I first went to Shady Hill when Warsaw closed. Open wheel has never really caught on there. Same with Montpelier, when they tried to run sprints weekly.
I don't see 30 to 40 people saying, if someone started a crate series, I would buy a car and go racing. The teams would for the most part, already be participating somewhere else. Eventually, races draw less fans and pay less money. The promoter then has to load up the back gate to try to break even

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

I agree to a point, However we are not seeing nearly the 410 startup teams or teams stick around as long as we used to .

In the back of my mind the 305winged cars engines put out as much power as the 604s Wisconsin class. Some fo the best Sprint racing I ever seen was when the motors put out about 600-750hp, Now there's crate motors that can do that and last.

A 604 GM crate is a 400 hp engine. 305 Racesavers are 430-500 hp, depending on the quality of the engine and whose dyno was used to generate the numbers.

Personally I don't think we need yet another "budget" sprint class in Indiana. There's already the 305s for those of us who like wings (heresy on here, but we do exist), and the Steel Block series for non-wing cars. The 305s have the benefit of being eligible for IMCA national points and being able to travel if they choose. A 305 or a Wisconsin Wingless 604 car can also be run competitively with the Steel Blocks if they want to. I have a 305 because, for our budget, it gives us the most options to run when we can, which has been FAR too little the last couple years.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

Problem would be in my opinion trying to get car counts. In the more central/northern Indiana region around Gas City/Montpelier you'd be fighting the USAC D2 series. I don't see a lot of 410 guys going to to buy a 604 crate engine and I don't see D2 guys selling out of their D2's to just go to another budget friendly class. Only point in doing that would be to get to say you have a sprint car instead of a midget. You go farther south and you're trying to get car counts, when you have the Steel Block Series and the 305's.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. I just don't see how it'd work out around here.

I’ve seen them at Angell Park and the only thing I like about them is they don’t have wings. Otherwise, they suck. To me they’re a bunch guys that are too chicken **** to run Badger midgets. Indiana would not benefit by having this class. If you can’t afford a 410 you shouldn’t be racing sprint cars. And USAC needs to understand that midgets are supposed to be cheaper than sprint cars.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

LOL throwback...(u know I fully respect you), but I think sprint cars and the GM engines are cheaper than the TOP midgets and bmara engines???...IF all the GM engines REALLY are all the same (people can buy the GM special bolts can't they???)...and before anyone gets on here or PMs me that I'm talking "bad" about bmara, I'm not. Only stating facts. A 604 retails under 10g; right? (thats what google tells me). We aren't allowed to talk about how much a bmara Honda cost (retail cost), but the bmara "Mazdas" were $15,000+ (I'd say more like 17,000) last I knew...& ya, I'm sure "Joe race car driver" (fictional name) ran 3rd that one time or maybe even won once with a stock out of the junkyard honest 2.4 (doubt it anytime recently, with stock injection anyways...), but I'm referring to the average...and I do like both series...but when just an injection system for a bmara engine cost (NEW price, not used; how many used ones are out there?), almost half of what this sprint car GM engine cost (retail, before any bolt-ons); I think that is something to look at (in regards to the part of this conversation you brought up...otherwise, again, as I do you throwback; I have just appreciated them both in recent years...neither are for me to participate in - I'm in the race to pay my house off - but for those that do compete in them; that is great)...

And lets do tires next. I'm not looking all that up, but how do those compare? Midget tires are in the $350 range, from what I was told. Are the ones the Wingless series use the same or less?

Would love to see the purse payoffs too...(I think bmara is better on this? I could be wrong).

Again, I do like both series and I hope they both continue to thrive. I think they can; but I think it is more of what a person likes and wants to spend their money on...

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

Guess that's why most of the former indiana LM drivers and half the mod drivers are running Cratemodels now. Because they're cheaper than both.

Re: Wisconsin WingLess Sprints. Thoughts.
 

Just stop with the whinny b.s. ��������