Is the system broken?
 

After listening to a recent Dirtnerds podcast, Duane was saying rear tires on sprint cars this year are going to cost around $365 each from our friends at Hoosier. From this fans perspective, Hoosier has created a monopoly, which is rarely good for the consumers. Now we know, for better or for worse, they create a pay to play system by giving sponsorship money to tracks and sanctions. I just wonder how much less they could sell tires for if they didn’t have to mark up their product to pay for their grants to other entities? And wouldn’t that be more beneficial for the average racer? I will admit, I’m critical of Hoosier for more than they’re business model, and I’m not saying I’m right, it’s just how I see it. I wonder what you all think?

Re: Is the system broken?
 

The fact they put out uncured tires last year and sold em knowingly is a issue I'd be more concerned with. Better no tires than ones they know could cause a accident. But grease the right palms and nobody has a problem with it...

I agree, I think that was the reason I quit, I don't mind most of the other rules, but when I lose my right to spend my money, on the things we have to have, my incentives diminish.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Its not just tires. Everything has gotten more expensive. It doesn't seem that long ago that I heard some dollar figures it takes just to roll a sprint car off the trailer and race for a night without problems. Those figures were 2-3 thousand per night. Now I hear figures of 7 thousand plus to compete per night. I don't dig the hoosier monopoly but I don't own a car either so its up to the people that have skin in the game to decide what is right for them. Personally I don't see how a blue collar Joe can do it anymore.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Everything is cheaper with competition. There is no reason USAC can't put its foot down and issue a tire spec that can be bought anywhere.

Sure there is, USAC and every other sanctioning body that's on the Hoosier program signed a contract and gave up their power to change tire vendors.

Biggest issue I see with allowing other tire manufacturers is ability to test or have standards for all companies and that’s easily over come, or leave it open for people to dope/cut etc.

Anyone know how much American Racers costs?

Also, could their production meet increased demand ?

To the original question , I for one believe it is, I see nowhere that it benefits the MAJORITY of the participants, now,am I wrong??

My understanding was materials/supply chain issues have plagued both manufacturers.

I feel it is a universal issue, I did look at AR midget prices a few days ago, and they have gone up, but no where near what H has, and I didn't check general, they may be competitive, worth a look.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

I think you just like stirring up crap.

Ah Fish, good to hear from you again. I hope all is well in your world. I hope you are healthy and well. I’m not trying to start crap. Just trying to get a feel that affects all racers. As some on here have posted, there’s supply issues that affect all manufacturers. I understand that. But doesn’t anyone wonder how much money Hoosier has to recoup to pay their contingencies? Wouldn’t a cheaper tire benefit more racers? Fish, are you on Hoosier’s payroll?

Re: Is the system broken?
 

While I don’t like monopolies, it is going to be extremely difficult to change the current business model. IF a track or sanctioning body chooses to have open competition for tires, then they have to convince a manufacturer or distributor to bring enough tires for the field, for every race of the season, with no guarantee that the manufacturer or distributor will make expenses any, let alone every, night. In the current economy, that is a BIG risk. Unless a major tire manufacturer decides to get back in to short track racing, I just don’t see another player having the financial nest egg to risk it trying to dethrone Hoosier.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

I don't think this is a stir, fish. It is the dead of Winter and there is nothing else to do but banter about until we can break free from our cabin fever and hit the tracks. Heck, I am passing the time by watching the Rolex 24 Hours at Daytona. I recorded it. It is one of my favorite races. This year, a new GTP class/hybrids. 61 cars. No threat of rain. It is so exciting. Last night while watching it I woke up around the five hour mark and realized that I passed out around the three hour mark. Luckily I can rewind the tape.

With respect to this Hoosier Tire deal, other than American Racer, who is LEFT to supply dirt tires? Goodyear is out of the business - right?


Interesting tidbits while we talk....

As for Hoosier in its current state: The business was purchased by Continental AG on October 4 of 2016.[3] The tire company was purchased for a total nearing 140 million dollars. Following the purchase, 27-year veteran John DeSalle was named president.

140 mil was a lot of dough for the Newtons to sell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoosier_Racing_Tire


Continental AG: Continental AG, commonly known as Continental or colloquially as Conti,[4] is a German multinational automotive parts manufacturing company specializing in tires, brake systems, interior electronics, automotive safety, powertrain and chassis components, tachographs, and other parts for the automotive and transportation industries. Continental is structured into six divisions: Chassis and Safety, Powertrain, Interior, Tires, ContiTech, ADAS (Advanced Driver Assistance Systems). It is headquartered in Hanover, Lower Saxony. Continental is the world's fourth-largest tire manufacturer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_AG

I just checked General, and it looks like ARCA is about all they do, that's about it for racing tires unless Foyt wants to spring for the molds again!

Re: Is the system broken?
 

55 how is it going? What’s up with Abe Vigoda accusing you of trouble making??? You asked a legitimate question here. Everyone knows monopolies can be trouble. After the garbage uncured crap Hoosier produced and sold at full price last year, this is beyond a legitimate concern. Supposedly the new tire rules in sprint car racing are supposed to make things better. At the price they are charging per tire they had better be impeccable and beyond consistent. Of course a little help in track prep by the speedways would be good too. Maybe Fish can talk it over with Barney, and Wojo to see if you have legitimate concerns instead of just making an accusation.

The reason for the Foyt mention, now don't quote me on this, as it has not been confirmed, but early in kart racing, there was a lack of dirt tires for kart racing, so AJ went to Firestone and paid for the molds, the tires were, you guessed it, Firestone 500's, till karts beat his time at the short lived dirt track at IRP. I once had a few of them, but like everything else, I needed something worse so they went. He went and got the molds. Now, only he knows the validity of this post, I'm just putting it out there for review.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

I think the topic has been hashed to death honestly. Unless the racers or tracks stand up to it, We can't change it. I don't like Monopolies and I don't like the fact that they sacrificed safety for volume. (Part of that was because there was no other option for tires) But I got no skin in it other than Im seeing less and less teams race every year and when tire bill tops motor bill, there's a problem.

Ahh, gotta luv IOW in late January every year……

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Oh no, Chuck. It's time for a thread hijack!

Getting back to watching the Rolex 24 Hours at Daytona, as USA/NBC went to their "night crew", they had a reporter in the pits interviewing various drivers.

Georgia Henneberry!

Good to see a Flo Racing dirt track reporter getting the call up for an event of the sort! Best hopes for her, her future, and the continuing coverage of the enduro!

....and now, back to the Hoosier tire debate. Or as they say in the English lands, Hoosier tyre debate, ol' chap.

76 I’m good, as always great to hear from you. Anyway when I started this thread it was to have a discussion about a concern voiced by one of the hosts of the Dirt Nerds podcast. I don’t want to speak for Duane, but my interpretation of his comments was the price of tires was concerning, as with everything. He is very much in tune with the sport as he runs the AFCS series. Always great to have Stevensville chime in and bring some good information. We missed you at the Chill Bowl party this year. Myself, I was just wondering if there might be a better way to price tires. It’s why I asked a question. As far as some people go, they must just be miserable to let a topic like this irritate them so much

Re: Is the system broken?
 

This is nothing more than capitalism at work. Hoosier, like all other companies, are not in business to make tires. They are in business to make money. They do it by making tires. They find the top price that people will pay, and charge that. That maximizes profit. It happens every day, with every product. It always has and always will.
Yes the price seems high to me, but I thought gas was too expensive when it went to a dollar a gallon back in the day.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Brent,
You hit the nail right on the head!
I recall a gruff old VP of Manufacturing at a company I was working at quiz a trainee on what we made at that plant. The naive kid ran through a list of all the products like like a happy little puppy. The old VP told him NO! WE MAKE MONEY! He too hit the nail on the head.

God Bless Capitalism!

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Yeah, I had the same thing happen with me but, unfortunately, I couldn't let it go. When the VP of the company I worked for replied that the company made money rather than product, I replied that we were therefore in the wrong business - We should be selling illicit drugs and our revenue/profit would then skyrocket.

It wasn't popular with the brass but my peers loved it. Sometimes the humor is worth the punishment.

Tim Simmons

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Correct
I remember when gas hit 55 cents during the 1973 oil embargo, & lots of people saying if it ever hit $1, they would stop driving
Joke's on us....:7:

I have to disagree, I'd call a"forced monopoly ", which may be the way our country is headed! I may be too old to understand how this is better for everyone, but being old, having been now thru both systems, who ever is steering, is headed for a bad finish, JMHO.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

I know that I am in the minority, but I think the tire rule actually helps the racers. I remember when some of the late model series had open tires and spent more on tires that when they had a tire rule. Racers are their own worst enemy. In the end, they are going to buy the tires that help them go the fastest. If brand X is the fastest on a heavy track, and brand Y is the fastest on a dry slick track, and brand z is the fastest on a rubber down track. The racers are going to buy three sets of tires. By the way, since none of the brands are the official brand of the series, there will be no loyalty program or bonus program.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Thank you Jonr! You beat me to the punch. The only thing that's broken around here is this record that keeps being flopped onto the turntable. Racing is expensive. High level racing is not for everyone. If you want to race cheap, then buy a Hornet, or Roadrunner, or whatever your local track calls a 4 cylinder stock car, and have a blast. Competing and winning is fun no matter what the level is.

Open tire rules cause everyone that wants to run up front to have to buy ALL of the tires available because just as Jonr points out, Goodyear may be best for dry tracks and McCreary may be best for tacky tracks and Hoosier works best on short, tight tracks... We went to a single tire supplier with a spec tire to keep those that didn't have unlimited means from having to buy every type of tire size, hardness, and brand out there to remain competitive. "Leveling the playing field", we're all running the "same" tire. One size, one compound, one brand... Problem is, those with unlimited funds will still find ways to spend them. If everyone is required to use the spec tire, then the big dogs buy 20 of them, mount them, measure them, grade them for size variation so they have a tuning advantage on stagger and hardness (because all tires, even properly cured ones, will vary on the finished diameter and range of hardness).

In the old days (that everyone is so fond of misremembering), a tire war was a BAD thing because it meant more tire failures and accidents. One brand would decide they were going to jump into a series that was running a single brand of tires and introduce a softer compound or change their sidewall stiffness, anything that would bring them short term success. Everyone would flock to those tires, so the original tire manufacturer would change their design and eventually, somebody would go too far and the drivers and teams would pay the price in crashes. One spec tire meant the manufacturer who was AWARDED the contract would know they could invest the engineering necessary to build purpose built tire for the series. They could afford to provide technical support, analyze failures and make adjustments that would keep the tires technology from being the differentiator. NASCAR did it (does it). Indy Car did it (does it). It makes sense for them.

Then dirt organizations got into the act and for a time, it was a good deal for them as well. But then we all started complaining that if I wanted to run with multiple series, because we're all about freedom and not being tied down to one club or organization, we had to buy McCrearys to run with one club and Hoosiers to run with a different sanction! It was a barrier to entry because I wasn't planning to run that many races with them, so why do I have to buy their tires! So in steps Hoosier, and they do a tremendous job of selling everyone on the idea that if you'll choose from their catalog of tires, and make that tire your spec tire, they'll kick you back some sponsorship money and everyone wins! The tire is legal at multiple tracks, with multiple sanctions, and everyone is using it, so nobody has an "advantage". Hoosier gains the manufacturing efficiency of being able to reduce the variety of tires they offer which lowers inventories on slow moving tires. They can increase their batch sizes (because unfortunately, tire manufacturing is a batch process instead of a one-piece flow), so it DOES actually reduce their manufacturing costs, which justifies paying out sponsorship money for exclusively using their tires.

Then a freak supply chain disruption that affects the entire world happens, and they rush to produce tires to backfill a void cause by this freak event, and now they don't know how to make tires any longer and the only thing that will solve the problem is anarchy and an open tire rule...

I don't know what the solution is, because the goal keeps changing. One week it's affordable tires, next week it's competitive tires, the next week it's freedom to use whatever tires. What I can suggest is for clubs and sanctioning bodies to do a better job of negotiating their tire deals. Don't keep renewing your tire deal out of convenience. Secondly, if American Racer is going to be a player in what is now a multinational corporate battle (because as has been pointed out on this thread, Hoosier is owned by Continental, not the Newtons), they need to pick a niche and work to be the best at it. Winged sprints, wingless, midgets, micros, whatever. I don't think they can be all things to all people. If they have success in taking down the elephant that now occupies the room, others may follow. And also we need to be prepared for some Chinese brands to start infiltrating the market. That will undoubtedly ruffle the "buy American" crowd, just like Triple X chassis did. I don't remember the brand, but I was surprised a few PRI shows back to see a Chinese tire manufacturer with a booth promoting the idea that they could supply dirt tires.

But until then... :deadhorse:

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Everything is more expensive these days. Hoosier has the right and obligation to its owners and backers to make money, no doubt about it....At the end of the day, yes, they should be in business to make money.....as long as they can provide a good and safe product, no issues as I see it. If they do not make money, they go out of business....just like race tracks...no money, no business...

Flagboy, settle down....:)

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Kind of like the same people who said " if cigarettes go to a dollar a pack. I am quitting". Those same people continue to smoke.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

As much as I wanna quit. I still pay about a dollar a pack because there are options other than buying them by the pack or a brand.


As far as tires in this model they'd have to buy the ingredients and have their own molds. But that's not legal.

I quit smoking, not so much about price, but because of what it possibly would be
doing to me, I did quit burning gas in my hauler, and went to diesel because it was cheaper, and it got better mileage, and it didn't give a dang what I hooked behind it, it just said when ever you're ready, I guess I didn't make any promises I couldn't keep.

is the system broken? of course it is.

i will take credit for my brothers photography, but not the blame.

I don’t need anyone to tell me it’s a business. I understand how capitalism works. My opinion is this I a monopoly. There are several factors that can contribute to this. My point being is that how much less could you sell a tire for if you didn’t have to recoup the kickbacks to people that agree to only use your product. I also know that some of this does trickle down to some of the competitors, but lower price would benefit them all. One thing that did strike me during some of the thread was Pitdad’s comment about a competitive tire. Not sure what that means. I actually would be all for a hard a$$ spec tire. One that wouldn’t rubber down and some teams could run a couple nights. Of course that would probably sell less tires and not be competitive

“Super hard” tires that won’t wear only work for one race. They tend to seal over and become useless. In my experience, you need a tire that’s soft enough to wear. Tracks taking rubber is the fault of track prep, not tire compounds (which I know will spark a whole other dead horse that will need more whipping).

Re: Is the system broken?
 

This tire deal has been going on for what 25 years now? It is nothing new. I remember a pretty successful car owner telling me that he didn't like it, because he got free tires from another company. How much more do you think a company has to charge the little guys to give free tires to a couple of teams. Not exactly a real fair set up either. I can honestly say, that talking tire ******** is one of the things that I hate about the sport.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Back about the time the monopoly and spec tire started AJ Anderson clearly stated he saved more on tires by running the right tire for the track. Said it was easy to get 5-7 nights out of a tire if you choose the right compound and setup.

Now you see em burn off a RR in a heat or consi because they have no choice.

I pitted for Rick Corbin (Late Model) back in the early to mid nineties some. I almost never remember running new tires. But Rick ran up front, Sometimes won. Still runs a mod and was very smart about getting the most out of the racing $$

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Maybe some "Divine Intervention" could help. Heh?:5::5::9: