So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up sprints?
 

I started viewing the sport when many cages were bolt on, the motors barely had the compression to run Methanol and both Motors and Tires lasted many races. The power went up but until the late 70's early 80's it was still mostly grooved drag tires MT's and Double Diamond. Is something like this viable now? Probably been ten years since I talked with Troy link but he ran the hardest tire he could find all the time and claimed to get about 15 races replaced pistons rods and mains twice a season running mostly once but sometimes twice a week.. Of course if there wasn;'t a cushion to lean on, he was getting ate up in the corners.

But who cares? You won't be seeing many New track records with a hard tire. But dang, 20-30k tire bills for a season. What if you could cut it to 5k.

Another problem solved would eliminate the need for the thumper motors. In fact, some nights a 305-360 might be the better option.

Or leave it as is? I imagine half of Paragon regulars do something like that anyway. Is the racing any worse?

Inquiring minds. Just want our sport to survive and possibly grow. Might even sound silly to some. That's ok.

Charles, you and I have been in agreement lately. Thanks for bringing up the double diamond, haven’t heard that in a while. It’s my opinion, as now just a fan, that the sport has adjusted to the basic costs and is growing. I believe the biggest threat to the sport is the same as affects all of us, the cost of doing business. As we know tires are a big cost in the sport we love. I recommend everyone to check out a recent Winged Nation podcast with Steve Post. He has a Hoosier guy on and also sprint car owner operator Brent Marks on. Very insightful. Charles, when you realize, like I’m sure you do, costs have skyrocketed, for teams and fans, the biggest threat is, well I’m going to stop short of making a political reference.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

No, lets not go political. Inflation is hitting everyone (They can decide why by themselves)

I will say there is more teams with the good stuff today than ever, But still the majority are not top motor, new tire teams. Probably a motor thats been rebuilt ten times and used tires most of the time.

From what I’ve heard from my Hoosier source they are afraid they may be out of tires by the end of the summer. I don’t know if there is a concrete solution for the tire problem. My opinion is that the WOO, Extreme and USAC should have a one right rear a night rule. That would cut down on a lot of the cost. Some if not all of the Outlaws teams are going through 4-6 tires a night.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

No offense meant but I was trying to get out of the Hoosier domination and apparently non curing of them. There used to be hundred lap sprint car features, Even triple 50s. Think a Hoosier Medium or even Hard could do that today?

Guarantee they couldn’t do it today. I agree with you I’d like like to see some competition in the tire business. When there isn’t any competition there isn’t much R&D going on when you’re the only game in town.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

You just said he magic words, R&D. Johnny Gibson on Twitter complimented Bacon for not stopping, Bringing out a yellow with two to go and probably causing many more cautions of one after another tire failures before the feature ended Saturday in the shortened WoO feature. From some I talk to. The mediums not just now, DO NOT do well in colder weather. Sure it was abrasive but we've seen the balding and chunked tires at Lawrenceburg opener and Bubba a few times.

Charles 100 lap feature is nothing. Eldora ran a 500 lap race for 3 years. Rick Ferkle told me he ran the entire race with the same tire.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

So did Orville Yeadon who won the first one in 1965. He also ran that same tire in the other two 500,s.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

Folks,

To answer the question, yes, there are options to allow more races with the same tire(s). Hoosier still makes Silver Crown tires (as far as I know) up to the F85 and 95 tires used for the miles. It would seem to me that if these tires will last 100+ laps on a 1 mile track they should last 2-4 race nights. The trouble with this, however, is that the fewer tires that are needed, the fewer the manufacturer can make and still be profitable enough to keep investors, etc. satisfied. So then, it becomes a balancing act, attempting to run out of inventory at exactly the same time the last tire is needed (this is called just-in-time, or lean, manufacturing). Most, if not all, manufacturers of goods use this method to maximize profit. They just got caught short with the issues of the last few years and are having problems catching up.

Tim Simmons

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

The answer to the tire probelm/shortage/cost issue is actually simple. Allow only one tire per event that is marked after qualifying or heat races (if no qualifying). That same tire must be run for the heat and feature. If it is changed or replaced due to puncture or for any other reason, the competitor starts at the rear of the event and will not receive more than 1/2 of the event points or prize money. I would allow for a different tire if a C-Main or B-main needed to be run to make the show. Other than that, no tire rule whatsoever. You can run whatever tire you want. Soak it, sipe it, groove it, bake it, or do whatever other voodoo you want to it, but it must be only tire for the event.

They F95’s make too much sense so you know that will not happen. So does allowing other manufacturers. They still make the drag tires and that would be interesting to see. Wait….rear drag tires are close to $500 each. So looks like f95 would be the best option.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

A little competition cures many ills.....

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

So, I first thought this thread was a joke, you know, sarcasm. But I'm starting to believe that you guys really believe the solution is to run rock hard tires that last a season.

We tried that back in the 80s. We were required to run 65 durometer Goodyears. You couldn't modify them in any way. No grooving. No siping. You couldn't "wear one out", but that didn't keep the teams that could afford it, from buying a new tire nearly every week. Even though you couldn't wear one out, it didn't mean you couldn't seal one over. A new tire did perform better than the sealed one, even though the tread wear was negligible. Plenty of pull offs for those of us on a budget. But you couldn't get a hold of the track unless it was during a rainstorm.

You see, whatever scheme you come up with, them that's got are them that gets. And I ain't got nothin yet.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

Im not saying the hardest they go. But something that last. I worked a LM team at the track for two years and I can't remember a night we lost a tire due to wear. we ground em, baby powdered and back on the car. But it was rare we mounted a new one. This was at Florence early 90s and that track was always a one groove black slick on the bottom then. Mostly ran top five sometimes podiumed, but yeah, most nights we couldn't beat Racin Mason, Donny Moran and some other heavy hitters at the time. John Gill. etc

Bob Hoggle. 1960s Ascot Park.
$19.95 JC.Penny Drag Slick.
Bob put it on them several nights. He stopped all the laughing and pointing.

Lynn

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

One tire per night is not an option. We are an extremely low budget team, but will use two and sometimes 3 right rear wheels with different offsets to tune the car to track conditions. We also take a tire that has some laps left in it and run hot laps / qualifying, and the heat race. Then mount up a new tire for the feature. The one tire rule would defiantly hurt lower budget teams who can't mount up a new tire every race. We try to get all of the good out of our tires. As someone else stated on here, competition cures a lot of problems. Hoosier has the monopoly in Indiana. They can tell us what ever they want, and can charge what they want, and if you are going to race a sprint car in Indiana right now, you are going to run Hoosier tires. That is the rule. IT sucks, but that's how it is now. Hopefully it will change, but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

Problem Statement: Non Wing Sprint Car Tires become unusable too fast and cost too much.

Reasoning:
1) Right Rear tires are blistering more than ever. As soon as a tire block overheats and blisters, the tire becomes unusable. This happens most often at tracks bigger than 1/4 mile. (Hint: Look at Robert Ballou's tire from Missouri xtreme race).
2) While we're still on spec tires, it seems as though they do not last near as long as they used to. Today, a brand new tire ran in a 25-30 lap main event will be deemed too used to flip. Rendering it useless.
3) Tire costs have gone up approximately $50 (22%) per tire in two years. Sprint car teams likely wear out 1-3 tires (LR and RR Included) per race. Bigger tracks will likely wear out more. Therefore just to cover a tire cost on a bad tire night, the team has to bring in $750. To bring home $750 on a local night means you run 2-3rd. In USAC that's roughly 11th place.

Potential Solutions: Limit Tire use, Reduce Tire Prices, Provide better quality tires, induce competition, or reduce horsepower.

If nothing happens: Less teams will afford to race. With what is provided today, my $.02 says all big tracks will struggle with car count this year, just because they can't afford to lose tires like this.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

I don't think a lot of people realize 1 tire a night hurts and almost kills the lower budget teams. A lot of them teams already are using tires that bigger teams say are unusable.

Although i'm just a D2/mini sprint, I have no fight in the sprint car world of rules. The 1 tire a night rule would kill us though. I have specific tires for the heats and specific tires for the A. Once it's wore out it becomes a hot lap/time trial tire. It keeps them more useful and alive longer that way. I do know some sprint car people that do that also.

Compound rules also hurt us, but I kind of know why them rules are a thing. Even though I have about 20-25 wrong compound tires that are not usuable. Some are D10's, some of them are almost new and would probably outlast most of my D15's/Sp2's that i have. That's not including all the American racers I have (which I think is a much better tire.) I've been checking place to get rid of them, due to their taking space and the cheapest I found is 7 dollars a tire. So around 200 to get rid of tires that I can't use, even though there's quite a few that's almost new.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

I'll keep my eyes peeled at the swap meets and salvage yards for JC Penney drag slicks and Atlas Bucrons...

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

So if we're going to take this topic completely off the rails, I think I still have some old Marsh recapped Goodyears in the shed that came with my '86 Nance buyout. They were too hard and heavy to run in '88, but if someone really needs them now, I could be persuaded to part with them.

We could also check Towel City. I think they still recap racing tires. Sounds like we've got plenty of casings available...

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

It appears a standoff is in play, but it doesn't appear good for the majority, and terrible for the bleacher people, no give on the tire end, wonder what Hoosier will do now, and the promoters, just roll over, and schedule tin tops and Hornets! Looks like anyone that has a Hoosier rule, might be doing without Midgets, TQ's, and Sprints, either W,, or NW, and with the weather what it is, getting an early start has provided nothing but bills to pay for tracks and those who promote them, Looks like Paragon might still have a program that will attract fans and Sprints, and TwinCity if they choose! Just Sayin!:11;

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

I said from the begining of the post that some may seem the topic silly.

But say you have two or three companies allowed. All three make a *Medium* Or 10-20-30 hardness Doesn't it make it more likely that more effort would be made into building a better tire? I mean brand H last one night. When the rule was made some ten years ago It was listed to last three or more nights and I know a team owner who said it did *THEN* So brands AR and GY make a medium that last five nights?

If it's competitive. Which is better for the teams? $750 a night or $750 for four or five nights?

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

Hoosier Tire pays big money to USAC for allowing only Hoosier tires the only tires allowed and you the racer are paying this every time you buy a Hoosier tire. So Hoosier makes tires that don't last so the racer has to buy more. I remember back in the day when I ran American Racer tires, these tires were better bald than Hoosier tire were when new. Some say Hoosier tires are not rubber but a plastic compound, this I don't know but there are better tires than Hoosier.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

I hate the implication that the tracks or series somehow are getting fat off of having a Hoosier 'kickback'. Yes, we all know that series that elect to enter a contract with Hoosier are going to get paid for mandating a tire. But over the years I've been a part of those agreements, I haven't bought as much as a loaf of bread or gallon of milk with Hoosier's money as a track/series.

In our circumstance here's where it goes. For the MOWA series, 100% of the money we receive from Hoosier Tire goes directly into the $100 tow money each of our top 10 teams get each night. It's not quite enough to fund it all but it's close enough. It all ends up in the racer's pocket. In our case the tracks don't pay that tow money. Memberships don't pay that tow money. Our series sponsor money is 100% allocated to our points fund. Personally, I don't care if we have a Hoosier contract/rule at all. But at the end of the day it's going to cost 10 racers $100 per night if we don't. And until/unless I know of a viable alternative that is better, cheaper and in abundant supply for years to come - I'm not dying to kill it.

For the past 10 years that Hoosier has been funding those 10 spots every night the racers haven't seemed to complain. In the short lifespan of our series, Hoosier has put well over 100k into the pockets of our teams - when there really wasn't any other viable tire option out there without having guys own a bunch of tires they can't race anywhere else. I know and realize that it's built into the price of the tire. Yes, I suppose it would be better if they reduced the cost of the tire by the proportional amount that they pay series and tracks and just save the racer money at retail and eliminate us passing it out as points/tow money. But it's all the same money. You pay it when you buy your tires and you get it back (whatever that extra built in cost is) when you get paid by your track or series. But at least you theoretically get it back, unlike the marketing fee built into a pair of Nike's that ends up in Jordan and Tiger's pockets.

Same goes for local tracks. I wanted to add midgets more regularly at Jacksonville but it was cost prohibitive with my sprint car purse already in place. Among the places I reached out to for a little extra each night was Hoosier Tire. Although not much at all, Hoosier was willing to support the midget program a little (obviously more races on midget tires = more tire sales) and so I figured that small amount into the midget purse which along with other support made me decide to go for it.

Now I have guys wanting an open midget tire rule. I fully understand that. But I'm not at the same time going to send Hoosier a bill for my midget payout along with a picture of a winner with an American Racer. The race wouldn't even happen without Hoosier's support. If we want to go that route - which is fine by me... seriously fine by me... I guess my solution will be to have two payout scales. One if you race a Hoosier - which they subsidize.... and another smaller payout if you race with another tire. Again, what I'm not going to do is take their money by agreeing to require their brand of tire - and then let people race whatever brand they want. So I suppose if that's what the racer wants to do the track series simply lets the racer decide... Here are your benefits if we require a Hoosier - and here's what money you lose if we don't. Right now I'm leaning toward an "Open Hoosier" rule for midgets which brings all the RD-12's you have laying around for Tulsa back into your trailer. Probably wouldn't work for a big series - but might work for our little gig.

Open tire rules are fine. There's just a financial consequence to that for the racer - because 9 times out of 10 or more that Hoosier 'kickback' is ending up in the racer's pocket anyway. I'm for sure not a fan of the price increases or the short supply we are expecting this year. But do you burn that bridge forever with a partner that has put 6 figures of money in your racers pockets over the past 10 years? And where does that leave us 3 years down the road if you burn it down? All questions I don't have an answer to - except to know that to make them you need to think of all possible outcomes over the long term without the influence of emotions of the moment.

Man I’ll tell you, it’s great when we
get Kenny to come on and give us some insight to a different perspective. I would love to have a couple beers with this guy to hear his views on any number of topics. I like to consider all information, and I haven’t stewed this one entirely, but I think about the MOWA scenario. So the top ten get tow money thanks to Hoosier. No one is going to see a ten a ten car show, or at least not me. Overall this is a very complex issue that won’t get solved anytime soon. My thoughts without a whole lot of time or math, is competition would probably improve things. A monopoly with pay to play deals is kinda like redistribution of wealth.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

In all of my racing over the years I never received any tow money, but I raced mods. It could be that if I was still running when they waved the checkered flag, I usually had a good finish. If I crashed out or blew up, I never asked for tow money. I raced all over the mid-west and all across the USA all the way California and down to Florida, mostly with IMCA. In 1995 I won the Mod championship at Bloomington and never won a feature. So, I don't know about the tow money that the sprint car racers get. What I do know about sprint car racing is if you win some races, you must have a car owner with lots of money or a good sponsor. I do think if you race a sprint car and don't have the big dollars, maybe with Paragon's steel block rules this track would be the place to race at. Mostly because the big buck racers won't be there.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

I appreciate the view from another perspective. I have no idea how much a series or track gets to have an all Hoosier tire rule. I also have no idea how tracks or series ,other than yours, spend that money, (thank you for sharing) but I cannot imagine we the racers, would not be in a better situation on tires right now if we had some competition among manufactures. A monopoly only benefits the owner of the monopoly. Hoosier could still sponsor tracks or series without the mandate, as well as American Racer , Good Year or any other company that wants to get in the game. NOS doesn't mandate everyone drink their product at a USAC show. I am not against Hoosier, but I don't like the Hoosier only rule!

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

Folks,

A local racer here just received two American Racer MC2 right rears. Assuming what he told me is true, which I have no reason not to believe him, he paid $600 for the two, including $60 for shipping. If my second grade arithmetic is correct that equates to $540 for the pair, or $270 each.

Just FYI

Tim Simmons

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

I want to thank anyone who put serious input into this thread.

I still don't see the answer but poping two RR's in a feature and damaging a third to finish isn't feasible for anyone.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

Continental Tire took over in 2016. Where there quality or quanity issues back then?

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

Because AR gave up. No one in Indiana will sell you an AR tire. There are only two tracks you can run an AR tire on all four corners (Paragon and Vernon). Last year when spiker had Paragon, it was Hoosier only. And vernon wasn't racing sprints with any regularity.

Still, Hoosier pushed out AR in the midwest and AR finally gave up.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

I often wonder if the tire companies are lining the pockets of those in charge of any racing series. This is going on in our political world and we see it every day.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

I am not an economics professor, but in my opinion, the fact that Continental now owns the Hoosier brand, along several other brands, Hoosier is now more beholding to the stockholders of Continental than to the racers who buy their product. The stock market fluctuates wildly on a regular basis, but the few shares I have owned for a long time in various companies have grown in value. From what I learned in Economics 101 over 50 years ago, to increase stock value you need to increase demand for your product or service. You can do that by making the best product on the market, cut the cost to manufacture your product or reduce your product's competition by merger or buyouts. If you want to race you need to buy tires. If a track or organization says to race with us you MUST have this tire, you are reducing that product's competition thus increasing the value of the stock. Again, I am not an economics professor but a retired science teacher who stressed to the kids observation was the key to problem solving. Observe the problem, gather as much information about the problem, form a hypothesis to solve the problem, test the hypothesis (experiment), collect data, evaluate if your hypothesis was valid, (did the data support or reject your hypothesis.) There has to be a solution out there to our problem, we just have to work at finding it.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

Not in my wildest dreams would I imagine anything like this, but looks can be convincing!:11:

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

To explain this a bit further, I was re-educated about how the economics work in a publicly traded organization. I was always under the impression that the customers of the CEO of an organization were the folks that bought their particular product. My re-education came when I was informed that the customer of the CEO/Board of an organization are actually the investors of that organization, and the powers-that-be will do whatever it takes to insure those investors get their dividend/income in order to keep the stock price at satisfactory levels. I realized this when I put a notice in my office reading "When our focus shifts from our customers to our investors we deserve the failure that will result". I was told to remove this notice immediately. You see, if an organization begins to believe the product they make will not meet the investors expectations they are tasked with either increasing sales (such as removing competition , etc.), increasing sale price (and thereby margins/profit), or eliminating that product from their offering.

What this boils down to is publicly traded organizations have gotten to the point that they cannot continue to operate without investors so they keep them satisfied even to the point of upsetting their customers. The focus has shifted for many organizations.

Kind of backwards to my way of thinking but that's the way I see it.

Tim Simmons

I finally figured it out myself, took a long time, but that's how the rich get, well, you know how the story goes , like I can remember when the stock market was only 4 digits long, I think, then overnight it was 5 digits, and our world was running on the stock market, if you were wise, lucky, or rich, you could buy your way in, that's why the sudden abundance of millionaires, or billionaires, and as the trend continues, the lower class remains, but are no longer included in the count, a lot of us are no longer middle class, we drive pickup trucks, and not motor homes, I think I was middle class for a while, but no longer feel like it. My 2018 van has Conti's on it, and at about 6k, they got hard, and the road noise is getting worse, run over a new strip of pavement and it's like new again.

Re: So is there a real, lasting tire option for full up spri
 

Any way you could post the to a facebook [page? Or send it to me to post on my page Help grow the sport of Racing. Everyone thinks sanctions and tracks are getting rich of thing they mandate.