Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Two nights in a row middle of the pack cars destroyed be the Stars of USAC.
Bad enough equipment get wrecked someone is goining to get hurt. Lost a little respect for those two. JMO

Maybe the current midget culture is overlapping to the sprint cars!

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Back in the day there would of been some split lips.

Originally Posted by cornerthree:
Two nights in a row middle of the pack cars destroyed be the Stars of USAC.
Bad enough equipment get wrecked someone is goining to get hurt. Lost a little respect for those two. JMO

Which 2 are you talking about?

Originally Posted by wildman92:
Which 2 are you talking about?

I’m assuming he is talking about Bacon lastnight and Grant tonight. We cut a tire on the first lap so I didn’t see the Grant/Rogers deal but I heard it was bad.

40 to 50 drivers going at it for sometimes just making the show. Going to be some hard cut throat racing. It would be boring if they didn’t take chances.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

It's a sad fact that the "slide job" has become vernacular.

When Carl Hungness Publishing wrote "The Illustrated History of USAC Sprint Car Racing" it mentions several drivers who were considered masters of the "slide job." This was frowned upon as it demonstrated a lack of sportsmanship or respect. One of the experts was basically black listed and is known in the annuls of history for being a perennial "rookie" at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

USAC now markets this style of racing in their own advertising. My how the worm has turned. I totally agree with the tactic from the Midget division spilling over into the Sprint. Midget racing is momentum. Sprint cars, while having insane power to weight, are being driven in the same manner. Grant mentioned in his interview, "maybe I started my slide to early and came up short?" Ya' think! Poor Rodgers was up as high as he could run, he was just a target! I think everyone involved in that one can consider themselves lucky. It looked really ugly.

I love the sport. I don't drive, sponsor or work on the them. There was a time when the Sport itself worked these types of situations out among themselves. Rides were lost, Respect was lost and yes some wheel hammers were used as weapons of retaliation.

I am hoping the powers at be will have a conversation on the matter. A few suspensions would go a long way. In the not to distant past a leading Midget driver was basically denied a Midget Championship for pulling a slide job on a pavement track.... it can be fixed.

you can interpret "fixed" anyway you like.......

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Up until the early nineties there may have been five or six cars capable of winning most races, Now it goes deep into the B main at most races, Especially in sprint week. Now the cars are so even, If theres someone getting two tenths faster times than the the others, Thats driver. Going equal speeds, the only way to pass is a shorter route.|

Personally I see nothing wrong with a slide job, Provided it has a reasonable chance of *CLEARING* Like someone else posted, Midget culture. Hey, If I slide to the point my RR is at their Left NERF and they don['t lift, IT's' THEIR FAULT............Because I made the pass. *NO YOU DIDN'T* However I see the guys who race against each other all the time know thats whats happening and burp the throttle to let them pass, and cut back under em. Often several laps in a row.

It's not a cheap sport, Not by a long shot, I bet a competitive USAC winning car cost about a hundred grand now. Eats a couple grand in tire an motor wear every night and probably cost a grand in crew haul and lodging per night. Some owners say if they wad it up because they were going forward and racing hard. That's racing. MOST OWNERS say. Well its going to be awhile before we can hit the track again. *IF WE HIT THE TRACK AGAIN*

Don't know the answer, But the Knuckle sandwich used to be quite effective.

The thing that really bothers me is I’ve seen PLENTY of good clean racing. Some very very close racing where you hold your breath because it’s so close. So they clearly can race with out being like that.

It’s important to note. There is no penalty for contact in USAC. So I’ve been told

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

This is where an old school visit from the likes of Hewitt and Kinser would knock this garbage off. There is no self policing in the sport today by the drivers because of our societal standards. The cars are being used as weapons hence the move Grant put on Rodgers. That was as blatant and bad as it gets and luckily Rodgers wasn't hurt. I haven't seen a missed slider that bad since Hewitt sent McSpadden into Preble county in 1991 at Eldora. At least Jack had the Ba!!s to say I screwed up as he crashed with the Tornado too.

This isn't Grant's first time finding front ends. This slider is in no way a defensible and the fact he smirked and laughed it off, tells me everything I need to know about him.

Karma will find him one day and I know there are some guys that are waiting to pay that tab back in spades.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

The good, Most of these wrecks see the driver either unhurt or just sore these days.

The bad, ALL OF THEM WON'T,

Weather it was power tools, tractors or driving cars, I was always taught the minute you don't respect it. Is the minute it bites you. Possibly permanently. Yes, Racing has some chance to it. It also has choice.

Originally Posted by flagboy55:
It’s important to note. There is no penalty for contact in USAC. So I’ve been told

So that should mean no penalty for fist to mouth contact then.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Nothing new.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

It seems to be the "professional" racers vs. the "hobby" racers. The serious pros do this for a living and don't care about the local or lower budget teams and don't care if they run them out of parts. Its sad but its been that way for decades. I don't like it and would like to see the top dogs drive a little more cleanly, since they claim to be the best. Disappointed in Bacon and JG but I won't quit wearing their shirts, even Tmez talks his jazz and then runs into people. I really feel for the lower budget teams, I was there once. When I see a crash all I see is dollar signs after the driver gets out and hope that that team has the resources to continue racing.
I hear that KTJ's dad has paid for some of the damage his son has caused?
It might be old school but maybe there should be some black eyes and fat lips passed around to deter some of the on track contact. How come no one pulls BS moves on Shane Cottle?

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Originally Posted by cornerthree:
Back in the day there would of been some split lips.

Back in the day there likely would have been someone seriously injured or killed. The safety of today's cars and driver protective equipment is great, but the elimination of the fear of death or injury has led to this type of racing.

Originally Posted by duel:
40 to 50 drivers going at it for sometimes just making the show. Going to be some hard cut throat racing. It would be boring if they didn’t take chances.

There is a BIG difference in taking chances and doing something that you absolutely know isn’t going to end well.

Just a couple other observations. I can’t defend the move whatsoever but I don’t think Jaden was a “target” or Justin used his car as a “weapon” It was a bad slide job gone wrong. Again I’m not defending JG, and thing’s are happening quickly on the race track but maybe a tap of the brake and Justin goes flying into the cushion and Rogers turns underneath him and drives back bye. One last thing, I’m pretty sure there are penalties for physical contact in USAC

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

I'm a huge JG fan so I'm biased here but I think a few folks on here need to get of their high horses. Brady Bacon does not have any history of dirty driving. He did get into Weir pretty bad but it's not like it happens all the time, I think I'll give him a pass on this one.
Grant does have a history of being aggressive but I don't think he "laughed" off his contact with Rogers, he said he would look at the video and if he short slid him he was sorry but if Rogers had a chance to stab the brakes and cut under him he was not. That's an honest assessment if not properly contrite.
These two get ran into as much as the next guy and they usually shrug it off as hard racing and go on. As I recall Grant got ran over by Bilbee early in the feature that gave him a flat and nothing was said about it.

There will be a lot of contact this week amongst all of the competitors, but there will be infinitely more side by side close racing between fierce competitors and that is what I will be watching.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Originally Posted by kb78:
but I don't think he "laughed" off his contact with Rogers, he said he would look at the video and if he short slid him he was sorry but if Rogers had a chance to stab the brakes and cut under him he was not. That's an honest assessment if not properly contrite.
These two get ran into as much as the next guy and they usually shrug it off as hard racing and go on. As I recall Grant got ran over by Bilbee early in the feature that gave him a flat and nothing was said about it.

.

Grant didn't want to admit he was short and did his best to pass the buck and gave a BS answer. He knew he was short. Why, does the guy whos running that line have an obligation to lift if the other is short, hence this situation? There is a difference between contact and sending someone into the next county. That slider takes a long time to develop going uphill and decelerating where as going to a hole on entry can close quite quickly hence the Bilbee situation. I give Bilbee credit, he could have flat drilled him in the driver compartment if he continued to entry and didn't try to veer right, which just cut a LR.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

that track was very very dry and doesn't hold moisture very well it's very hard to pass on and requires a lot of HP the drivers have to take chances to get around the slower car in front of him Grant just ran out of real estate and he knew it so if the drivers just stayed in line it would be a follow the leader race which would be pretty boring.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Originally Posted by buster***:
that track was very very dry and doesn't hold moisture very well it's very hard to pass on and requires a lot of HP the drivers have to take chances to get around the slower car in front of him Grant just ran out of real estate and he knew it so if the drivers just stayed in line it would be a follow the leader race which would be pretty boring.

A newbie! Welcome!

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

I know. probably a bad choice of words on my part. The national points guys do seem more aggressive. They can afford it.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Jadon should get away from usac.

Originally Posted by kb78:
Brady Bacon does not have any history of dirty driving. He did get into Weir pretty bad but it's not like it happens all the time, I think I'll give him a pass on this one.
.

You lost me at “Bacon does not have any history of dirty driving”. I’ve seen him dump several people down through the years.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Originally Posted by Kart#51:
Grant didn't want to admit he was short and did his best to pass the buck and gave a BS answer. He knew he was short. Why, does the guy whos running that line have an obligation to lift if the other is short, hence this situation? There is a difference between contact and sending someone into the next county. That slider takes a long time to develop going uphill and decelerating where as going to a hole on entry can close quite quickly hence the Bilbee situation. I give Bilbee credit, he could have flat drilled him in the driver compartment if he continued to entry and didn't try to veer right, which just cut a LR.

BS answer? Your right, a better answer would have been " SLIDE OR DIE" or maybe go with the " They have to realize I am going for a championship". He went with an honest answer and I'll take it.

Let's say I stick the bottom in 1 and 2 and you are on the cushion, now as we come down the backstretch I arc up to the wall to go into 3 but I'm only to your front wheel. Are you going to lift or are you going to eat the wall because you shouldn't have to change your line? This happens all the time as well, it's much less aggressive but the same situation. If you don't lift someone is crashing.

Why do I get the feeling that if Kyle Larson would have showed up and pulled these same moves we would have celebrated his hard racing style? Because he does it in the midgets and no one cares.

To quote Jack Hewitt….. if these things were safe and easy to drive everyone in the grandstand would want to drive one……or to update his quote, everyone behind a keyboard

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Grant does have a history of being aggressive but I don't think he "laughed" off his contact with Rogers, he said he would look at the video and if he short slid him he was sorry but if Rogers had a chance to stab the brakes and cut under him was not.



If he determines that his decision to try an unsuccessful move could have been avoided by the other driver hitting the brakes, then I must have forgotten what racing is. He came out on nite 1 of the season to play off driving over his “friend” Jake Swanson in Florida by saying I’m not here to make friends I’m here to win races. For me that means any move he tries good or bad is ok because he is here to win races. I sure do hope if it’s down to the wire for the championship out west and he gets stuffed in the fence by a bad slider by someone who thought JG could have tapped the brakes, he doesn’t ***** about.

When was the last time someone was set down for "rough driving"? Hit them in the pocketbook, points, etc.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Originally Posted by captrat:
when was the last time someone was set down for "rough driving"? Hit them in the pocketbook, points, etc.

#12?

Weir had a perfect opportunity to give payback last night and chose not to. He is a good definition of true Indiana sprint car racing.

If you really pay attention over the years, and cut through some of the theatrics, I would challenge you to find a cleaner racer than T-Mez. He will push guys to there limits, but if he puts anyone in a bad spot, it is more himself than his competitors.

Ballou, Cottle, Cockrum, Darland, T-Mez, Weir, Westfall, Cummins, Bilbee, Mattox, Shuman, Short….need more of them to keep the true grit of traditional sprint car racing….less of the holding soda cans, same old interviews, and BS personalities. I suppose times change.

I hope young men with the talent of Bibent and Rogers lean toward acting more like the above men, then some of the “stars of usac”, for the future of the product to the general public.

Racers will sort it out, but always fun to throw out an opinion.

Everyone that straps in to these things are a badass in my book, but alot less of them are the same badasses outside the cockpit.

Now I have never been in a race car or even had a full racing helmet on. Between the noise, the speed, and lack of vision how aware are you of the cars are you? Is that even a viable excuse to say “ I didn’t realize he was there.”?

Originally Posted by sw1911:
#12?

Yes, he was sat down, but not for on track conduct.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Originally Posted by jonboat15:
It seems to be the "professional" racers vs. the "hobby" racers. The serious pros do this for a living and don't care about the local or lower budget teams and don't care if they run them out of parts. Its sad but its been that way for decades. I don't like it and would like to see the top dogs drive a little more cleanly, since they claim to be the best. Disappointed in Bacon and JG but I won't quit wearing their shirts, even Tmez talks his jazz and then runs into people. I really feel for the lower budget teams, I was there once. When I see a crash all I see is dollar signs after the driver gets out and hope that that team has the resources to continue racing.
I hear that KTJ's dad has paid for some of the damage his son has caused?
It might be old school but maybe there should be some black eyes and fat lips passed around to deter some of the on track contact. How come no one pulls BS moves on Shane Cottle?

That last sentence.
It as rare as anything in dirt racing that someone would pull a B.S move on Shane Cottle. There are a few instances of him being very pissed off. I think most drivers know that and wouldn't pull a dirty slider on Shane any time soon. In the early 2000's Shane drive a red 78# Modified for my close friend Mike Hollifield at Buzzard Race Cars and raced as hard as any driver but race as clean as he could with respect for the other drivers on the track and got a bunch of feature wins out of it.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

All it would take is for USAC to start Disqualifing there favorites instead of looking the other way, which is telling them this kind of ******** driving is ok. When the locals quit supporting the USAC shows and than the crowds quit coming they will figure it out.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Originally Posted by jonboat15:
How come no one pulls BS moves on Shane Cottle?

Brad Kuhn tried at the B Main of the Chili Bowl that one year... that didn't end well for him!

Your point is well taken! That is old school, and I'm guessing most on here would like to see more of it when 'incidents' of this nature occur.

I don't think Bacon and Grant are 'dirty' drivers... but are certainly aggressive. There is a fine line there though. As others have said, both of those guys are too talented to not have the patience to wait another lap or two to make a clean pass.

Looking forward to hitting the road to see how this plays out Wed-Fri!

I’m kinda on the fence. I didn’t see Grant/ Rogers so I have no opinion one way or the other. As for Bacon/Weir, there’s no doubt Bacon getting into Weir was a mistake on Bacons part. Scott had zero blame in that.

But here’s my question: What constitutes a “hard racing deal”? Personally, i think it’s possible for a driver to be 100% at fault for the impact, but it be 00% intentional, malicious or lacking respect.

Seems like when there’s contact these days, let alone a move that just didn’t work, we as fans can’t wait to point our finger and condemn their parents for raising an ungrateful little snot. Bad judgement and mistakes have now been replaced with Judge, Jury and Executioner social media death sentences. We’ll happily ignore the hundreds of clean passes or those without contact but as soon as contact is made- CRUCIFY THE RICH UNGRATEFUL LITTLE #%*#!!!

So i guess all those flip sequences i looked at in Open Wheel mag growing up must’ve been drivers just hooking the cushion. Seriously though, since we are in a litigious society these days and throwing fists is not a real option, i would be ok with a two spot penalty being imposed for an obvious failed move causing a yellow and being sent to the tail for causing a red. I wouldn’t call Bacon/ Weir malicious but i would definitely call it a failed move.

As usual, just my initial thought to the convo. Take it with a grain of salt.

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

I used to be a pretty big fan of Grant, especially when he was just locally racing in Indiana and Ohio. Then his driving started getting really dirty and I stopped being a fan. Gave away my shirts etc..

My opinion is sliders are fine, I've thrown them plenty of times, I've had them thrown on me plenty of times. Only time they're not fine is when someone doesn't clear it and destroys a guy because of it.

On the slider, in my opinion the fault of the contact, is the one throwing it if it doesn't clear. What I mean clear is, rear bumper passes cleanly ahead of the other cars front bumper. Without forcing the other car to hit the brakes to clear them. If you can get your rear bumper ahead of the other cars front bumper then, you cleared it and it's the other guys job to hit the brake or crossover. Unless you're doing 50 mph less then them and they have no where to go.

So I don't agree with Grants comments of him only being sorry, if there wasn't a chance Jadon could hit the brakes. No you clear him and until then it's your fault. A guy shouldn't have to hit the brakes for you to clear him. If Grant cleared him, then Jadon just drove through Grant's tail tank and took Grant out or whatever that'd be different.

Rogers wasn't a slower car...they were racing for position

Re: Lack of respect by the Stars of USAC.
 

Originally Posted by kinser:
You lost me at “Bacon does not have any history of dirty driving”. I’ve seen him dump several people down through the years.

Not saying Bacon doesn't get into people. The Weir Kokomo thing was clearly such. But it's rare. Sure several on here will point out a half a dozen other instances over the past ten years and three hundred races that he took someone out.

But he hasn't won three championships making it a common occurrence. The 2016 Championship was run with the same car for every race. I think they pulled the backup once just to be certain that night. The Backup had one race in USAC competition.

Anyway. He's done so, By qualifying well and being top five darn near every night. Grant and others are playing ketchup when they start being the eight ball. Added pressure yeah. But you gotta finish to get anything.

I look at KTJ and I don't see him going around blaming, making excuses. Never seen someone so hard on himself when he doesn't win That's a competitor to me.