Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

I WAS A FIRESTONE RACING TIRE DEALER AND I INTRODUCED THE 13" FIRESTONE TIRES TO MIDGET RACING THEY WHERE A SMALL SPORTS CAR TIRES LF 450-650-13 RF 500-730-13 LR 525-975-13 RR 625-1250-13 TED HAILBRAND HAD SOME 8"- 13" MAG. WHEELS FOR SPORTS CARS AND HE DRILLED SOME FOR A MIDGET HUBS! THE FRONTS SOLD FOR $40 TO $45 REARS $50-$55! YOU COULD GET 6 TO 8 RACES OUT OF THESE TIRES! ONE COMPOUND AND YOU GROOVED THEM FOR DIRT! WHILE SPRINT CARS PAVEMENT TIRES SOLD FOR FRONTS $45 -$55 REARS $65-$70 THEY WHERE INDY CAR TIRES WHICH I INTRODUCED AND SOLD! I REMEMBER LARRY DICKSON WINNING GRAND RAPIDS ON FRIDAY TOLEDO SAT NIGHT AND NEW BREMAN ON SUN. WITH THE SAME TIRE!!!! RR COMPOUND 199 HARD RR FOR THE MICHIGAN 500! DIRT TIRES FRONTS RIBS $35-$38 AND WOULD LAST ALL YEAR! RAIN TIRES FRONTS $ 55 REARS $65 AND YOU COULD GET 4-5 RACES OUT OF! DO YOU REALLY THINK THINGS ARE BETTER NOW? :kookoo:doh:

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Well, isn't that interesting information. It's been downhill with the HoosierDaddy Tire Company since. I'm still waiting on one of the executives of the various midget orgs to come out of the woodwork and get us back to something reasonable. STILL WAITING, gentlemen!!! It's awfully qiuet.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Originally Posted by DonMoore10:
Well, isn't that interesting information. It's been downhill with the HoosierDaddy Tire Company since. I'm still waiting on one of the executives of the various midget orgs to come out of the woodwork and get us back to something reasonable. STILL WAITING, gentlemen!!! It's awfully qiuet.

Don you give any thought that these executives really don't get a rat's:moon: to what you think? Geesh stick to the music business!

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Originally Posted by Racecar:
Don you give any thought that these executives really don't get a rat's:moon: to what you think? Geesh stick to the music business!

I think it's fairly obvious Don Moore is just here to bait Kevin Miller into a pointless battle of words online. If he expects a major racing organization to jump up and dance just because he says so, he must really live in a fantasy world.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Originally Posted by Racecar:
Don you give any thought that these executives really don't get a rat's:moon: to what you think? Geesh stick to the music business!

At least Don attempts to do something about the insane costs, everyone else just seems to sit back and do nothing but bash him for his efforts while the costs keep rising. Perhaps those executives should start to listen to owners before there are none left.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

6157 is another USAC employee. They've been doing this on this site for some time now.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

We have? Not that I was aware of?

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Don,

Were you around racing in the 70's? Racers ran tires until they had no tread left or got a hole in them (we even ran tubes in the tires that did get holes). We (racers as a general category) had no idea that heat cycles or sealing over might be the reason the car was not as competitive on the 5th night on the same right rear. We thought maybe the edges had gone off the tire or we had missed the set-up.

The other thing to take into account is the way the tracks were prepped back then. LOTS of calcium chloride and little packing by heavy equipment (sheeps foot) made for tracks that held the moisture much longer and developed cushions. (Calcium chloride is not used now due to environmental reasons). Even a sealed over, heat cycled tire grips on a heavy track because you are relying on the cleating action of the tread rather than the microscopic adhesion of the contact patch.

Duke's $55.00 midget tire in 1975 is equivalent to spending $209 today due to inflation. I think you stated you are buying tires for $160 now. If so how is that a bad deal?

Your constant railing against the sanctions and tire companies without perspective reveals your ignorance in these matters. If a rival tire company could build a tire that lasted 5 races AND was competitive don't you think they would? Everyone would want the tire that lasted and that tire company could corner the market and eliminate the competition.

This is akin to the conspiracy theorists out there that say that the “Oil Companies” have suppressed a device that allows cars to run on water/tiny amounts of gasoline. If an oil company had such a device they could patent it and make far more income from licensing than from oil production.

As far as spec tires, yes I am certain that some amount of money you spend for the spec tire goes into the points fund for the sanctioning body. And yes, it is only paid out to the top 10 or 15 or 20 in points. But these guys getting the points money generally supported the sanctioning body by hauling all over God's green earth to run the races they sanction.

We ran EVERY USAC sanctioned national sprint car event this year. The other teams that ran all or substantially all of the events have demonstrated a serious commitment to this sport and the sanctioning body and should have a voice in the direction of the sanctioned events and the rules under which we race. That being said, you seem to think that your questions/comments deserve to be answered by the executives of the sanctioning body’s.

How many sanctioned Poweri (sp) or USAC (since those are the ones you constantly call out) events did you run this year? Last year? It would be comparable to the fact that I golfed twice this past year but was really unhappy with the cost of the golf balls I lost so I am going to continually bash and demand the PGA do something to require the golf ball manufacturers make balls that cannot be lost. I won’t hold my breath waiting for them to get back to me! :kookoo

While I agree in principle with your basic position (racing costs are soaring, the purses are stagnant, something needs to be done), your “in your face attitude” is a real turn off and your statements of “fact” reveal how little knowledge you have of this sport. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but please back it up with experience, facts and or logic. I could offer opinions on how to run a music publishing business but they would reveal that while I know business in general (I am a commercial loan officer for a bank), I have no specific knowledge or experience with the music business and my opinions may not have a lot of value to those that earn their living from that line of work.

Rob Hoffman

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

I appreciate your comments, Rob. But you come from a completely different level $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ of racing than I do. If I had the Hoffman's money and sponsors I wouldn't be posting on here about racing costs. I'm going to leave it at that.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

I think people would be shocked to learn what our sponsors put forth. Don, I have raced indy cars on a shoestring budget so don't try to tell me I don't know what it is like to be hopelessly outspent. The last time I checked USAC competition was at a national level. I am sure you can run your tires multiple nights at a local level and run up front. But if you want to compete against the best and have a shot at winning youi better load your gun for bear!

Rob HoffmanPosted via Mobile Device

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

I represent the thousands of race car teams (all types) across the country that scrape together enough money to keep a race team going. You represent a small elite minority. Congratulations. Anything else you want to talk down to me and the others that aren't multi-millionaires with multiple sponsors?

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

why does every other post on the site anymore turn into a bickering match? its nice to have differing opinions but it seems that some folks on here really want to start a fight with almost every post they put on here.........im a perfect example of someone who has been run out of the sport because of cost.....maybe some day i will be back....but im not bitter about it.....i just have to be happy that i am still in some way involved in the sport. i will always be a fan at heart so no matter what they can never take that away!

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Originally Posted by DonMoore10:
I represent the thousands of race car teams (all types) across the country that scrape together enough money to keep a race team going. You represent a small elite minority. Congratulations. Anything else you want to talk down to me and the others that aren't multi-millionaires with multiple sponsors?

this post should come with a disclaimer......the views represented by some on this board do not represent my views or concerns.......


and by the way......i would like to express my opinion that nobody represents me on matters concerning money. im sure if you look into it the hoffmans are on the low side of teams spending mega money in usac.......

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Originally Posted by Kevin Miller:
We have? Not that I was aware of?

Don't mind Don. He thinks everyone, that thinks he's a raving lunatic with way too much time on his hands, is a USAC employee.

Most of us just don't want to be attacked pointlessly by him, while the mods do nothing about it.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

" If a rival tire company could build a tire that lasted 5 races AND was competitive don't you think they would? Everyone would want the tire that lasted and that tire company could corner the market and eliminate the competition."

How does that competition work where many of the sanctions have in effect given a given company an effective monopoly? And I certainly don't see many competitors "on the local level" (and I mainly see Badger and Powri racing) remain competitive over multiple nights on the same tires.

I'm only a fan and not an owner or team member but sometimes I wonder if its not the super competitive nature of you folks that isn't you worst enemy in regards costs and even discussing them in an effective fashion. But that nature is also what makes the racing so good for us fans I guess.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Originally Posted by badgerfan:
" If a rival tire company could build a tire that lasted 5 races AND was competitive don't you think they would? Everyone would want the tire that lasted and that tire company could corner the market and eliminate the competition."

How does that competition work where many of the sanctions have in effect given a given company an effective monopoly? And I certainly don't see many competitors "on the local level" (and I mainly see Badger and Powri racing) remain competitive over multiple nights on the same tires.

I'm only a fan and not an owner or team member but sometimes I wonder if its not the super competitive nature of you folks that isn't you worst enemy in regards costs and even discussing them in an effective fashion. But that nature is also what makes the racing so good for us fans I guess.

Don doesn't understand a big part of it is Hoosiers unwillingness to build a tire that lasts 5 or 6 races because it's not financially feasible for them. And before he comes on here and says it'll just cut into their massive profits, unless he's seen their books, he has no right to make that comment. AR's tire at best lasts two races. Sure you can run it longer, if you want but you're risking the competitive advantage.

Hoosier and AR are in the business to sell tires. AR gave in a little to grab some market share from Hoosier but it's obvious the majority of the people in this country are going with Hoosiers because they make a competitive tire. For a guy who runs his own publishing company, I don't understand how he cannot under a basic tenet of business like this for a tire company.

Originally Posted by throb:
this post should come with a disclaimer......the views represented by some on this board do not represent my views or concerns.......

I missed this the first time around but this is an excellent point. Don Moore makes these posts under the protective concept that he's speaking for thousands of lowbuck race teams out there and that is absolutely not the case.

I know plenty of lowbuck teams, who don't like the price of tires but they understand the business their in, they understand it's expensive, so they buy their tires and run their races like respectable gentlemen do.

Someone needs to step up to Don Moore and stop his slanderous and libelous postings about USAC, POWRi, Hoosier, and certain race teams

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Double post.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

dont misunderstand me....i dont know don moore and have nothing against him. i just want it to be known that not everyone that he claims to be speaking for wants him speaking for them..

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

:confused:

Originally Posted by Racerrob:
Don,

Were you around racing in the 70's? Racers ran tires until they had no tread left or got a hole in them (we even ran tubes in the tires that did get holes). We (racers as a general category) had no idea that heat cycles or sealing over might be the reason the car was not as competitive on the 5th night on the same right rear. We thought maybe the edges had gone off the tire or we had missed the set-up.

The other thing to take into account is the way the tracks were prepped back then. LOTS of calcium chloride and little packing by heavy equipment (sheeps foot) made for tracks that held the moisture much longer and developed cushions. (Calcium chloride is not used now due to environmental reasons). Even a sealed over, heat cycled tire grips on a heavy track because you are relying on the cleating action of the tread rather than the microscopic adhesion of the contact patch.

Duke's $55.00 midget tire in 1975 is equivalent to spending $209 today due to inflation. I think you stated you are buying tires for $160 now. If so how is that a bad deal?

Your constant railing against the sanctions and tire companies without perspective reveals your ignorance in these matters. If a rival tire company could build a tire that lasted 5 races AND was competitive don't you think they would? Everyone would want the tire that lasted and that tire company could corner the market and eliminate the competition.

This is akin to the conspiracy theorists out there that say that the “Oil Companies” have suppressed a device that allows cars to run on water/tiny amounts of gasoline. If an oil company had such a device they could patent it and make far more income from licensing than from oil production.

As far as spec tires, yes I am certain that some amount of money you spend for the spec tire goes into the points fund for the sanctioning body. And yes, it is only paid out to the top 10 or 15 or 20 in points. But these guys getting the points money generally supported the sanctioning body by hauling all over God's green earth to run the races they sanction.

We ran EVERY USAC sanctioned national sprint car event this year. The other teams that ran all or substantially all of the events have demonstrated a serious commitment to this sport and the sanctioning body and should have a voice in the direction of the sanctioned events and the rules under which we race. That being said, you seem to think that your questions/comments deserve to be answered by the executives of the sanctioning body’s.

How many sanctioned Poweri (sp) or USAC (since those are the ones you constantly call out) events did you run this year? Last year? It would be comparable to the fact that I golfed twice this past year but was really unhappy with the cost of the golf balls I lost so I am going to continually bash and demand the PGA do something to require the golf ball manufacturers make balls that cannot be lost. I won’t hold my breath waiting for them to get back to me! :kookoo

While I agree in principle with your basic position (racing costs are soaring, the purses are stagnant, something needs to be done), your “in your face attitude” is a real turn off and your statements of “fact” reveal how little knowledge you have of this sport. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but please back it up with experience, facts and or logic. I could offer opinions on how to run a music publishing business but they would reveal that while I know business in general (I am a commercial loan officer for a bank), I have no specific knowledge or experience with the music business and my opinions may not have a lot of value to those that earn their living from that line of work.

Rob Hoffman

WOW HERE WE GO AGAIN! THERE IS TOO MANY COMPOUNDS TODAY! BY THE WAY ROB WITH INFLATION WHAT WOULD THE PURSES BE NOW? ITS HELL TOO GET OLD AND STILL LIKE RACING!

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Originally Posted by 6157:
Someone needs to step up to Don Moore and stop his slanderous and libelous postings about USAC, POWRi, Hoosier, and certain race teams :crying:

Maybe you could call 911 for an emergency meeting with the message board police and get to the bottom of this :censor: immediately before someone else's feelings are hurt ! :crying:

:moon:

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself. The views I express here are not necessarily the views of my teammates, family or sponsors. And just to clarify, I am not a multi-millionaire by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I parked my son’s quarter midget because I could not spare the money to go racing with him in that venue. I was able to take him to Columbus last weekend and we had a very good outing after a 19 month layoff.

The "small elite minority" smacks of the class warfare that was practiced in the last ********. Perhaps the President elect can look into redistributing the tire wealth so that every race team can have the same quantity and quality of tires. :headbang

To answer Duke’s question, I believe it was $7,500 guaranteed against a percentage of the back gate, correct? If so, then that would be $28,600 in today’s dollars. The typical purse is now about two-thirds of that amount. As I said in the earlier post, I agree with the premise that we need to race for larger purses, cut costs and attract more fans. I just don't think that continually bashing the sanctioning body's and tire companies will make that happen.

Rob Hoffman

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

For ur information, I've signed with the William Morris Agency and I'm pretty sure Speed Channel called today. I may be able to afford those HoosierDaddy tires after all. Now if I could just get all those Cincinnati Procter and Gamble sponsors on my side. Maybe free Tide so I won't have to clip those Sunday paper coupons.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

I've been reading this post which is a spin off of a prior post about tires. The way I see it and yes I'm a nobody that runs a sprint car when I can at Paragon. I think Rob and Don both make valid point.

Here is what I have been telling people for the last couple years to many people are forgetting to have fun racing. Racing has never been a cheap thing to do I don't car if it go karts or Indy cars. As a racer or car owner you have to decide on what level you want to run and make a plan and do it. If you want to run on a local level know what you can afford and set some goal but if you decide to go play with the big boys with the so called unlimited budget know what you are getting into. We all want to win or we wouldn't be doing it but remember to have fun and if it not fun to run with the big budget teams then don't do it.

On the other hand I do believe that a any sanctioning body has an obligation to there car owners to create a fair and reasonable set of rules to run by. To have a sanctioning body making there rules based on how much money a manufacture (be it Tires, Engines chassis or whatever) is putting in there pocket is no different than special interest group lining the pockets of the politicians that run a country. If you don't have a problem with that fine but I think the car owners should have a say in it.

If you are going to have to run a specific tire manufacturer because they are helping with your point fund let the car owners vote on what tire they want to run. If you have paid you sanctioning fees as a car owner you get to vote majority rules if you don't vote don't complain. This is the way things where done the year I ran some SCRA races in 2004 if there was a big enough stink about an issue it was addressed before the season and voted on. If something needs to be addressed in the middle of the season have a meeting and vote on it. You can make some of the people happy all the time but not all of the people all the time. Just remember to have fun racing on whatever level you decide to race.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

[QUOTE=hairracer44;74998] This is the way things where done the year I ran some SCRA races in 2004 if there was a big enough stink about an issue it was addressed before the season and voted on. If something needs to be addressed in the middle of the season have a meeting and vote on it. [/QUOTE

That worked out really well for SCRA didn't it?

How are they doing these days?

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

I don't wnt to start more bashing here but SCRA would be doing fine if USAC wouldn't have come in an stab them in the back by undercutting sansioning fees and stealing the track awy from Ron Shuman. Ask the guys on the west cost how they feel about what going on out there now. Granted I have not been out there for a while but I understand there not any happier with the situation they have now. Shuman paid tow money and for the most part took car of his owners and drivers I don't think theirs any tow money any more Just for an example.

I'm just saying owners are alway going to complain and if your not having fun racing don't do it. If you don't like the way a certain group runs there deal don't run with them. Nobody is putting a gun to the owners head telling them to run there car where and when and if they are your not haveing fun are you.

All I here is complaining and no one finding an answer If you have a better idea speak up instead of putting down everyone elses ideas.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Originally Posted by hairracer44:
I don't wnt to start more bashing here but SCRA would be doing fine if USAC wouldn't have come in an stab them in the back by undercutting sansioning fees and stealing the track awy from Ron Shuman. Ask the guys on the west cost how they feel about what going on out there now. Granted I have not been out there for a while but I understand there not any happier with the situation they have now. Shuman paid tow money and for the most part took car of his owners and drivers I don't think theirs any tow money any more Just for an example.

FWIW, you can point that sword at Temecula Valley Pipe and Supply for bringing in USAC. TVPS told PAS to get USAC or kiss their money goodbye.

The owners are the reason SCRA is out of business, not USAC. Nothing was stopping them from supporting SCRA over CRA.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Originally Posted by DonMoore10:
Well, isn't that interesting information. It's been downhill with the HoosierDaddy Tire Company since. I'm still waiting on one of the executives of the various midget orgs to come out of the woodwork and get us back to something reasonable. STILL WAITING, gentlemen!!! It's awfully qiuet.

I don't really have a dog in this fight but, the above post caused all of this rancor? You've got to be kidding me??? :confused: I guess I need to re-read it to find the evil that you all found in this post :angry-smiley-007: All I see is a guy asking manufacturers and organizations to make an attempt to do something about the cost of racing. You guys may not be USAC employees but you're sure drinking their Kool-Aid.

BTW, I wouldn't know Don Moore if he was standing right next to me.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Yeah... and more economic bad news came out this morning. But apparently the midget racing industry is immune to all of this! Does anybody remember the 22 cars (actually only 17 owners, folks) that showed up at the Hut Hundred. HELLO???? Oh... and you might want to check the car count at Sun Prairie last season.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Hey Don, have you ever thought about fielding a sprint car team instead? The costs are a little more favorable and you're running for more money nearly 100% of the time.

Not being a smart ass, just asking a question.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Sprint car would not fit into my tiny trailer. :thumbsdown:And besides.. I'm a one man show... unlike the elite teams, many funded by almost bankrupt auto companies, I still clip coupons. And I'd have to hire someone just to help move those humongous tires around. Also I can't afford a 2 million dollar building in Brownsburg or a staff of 5-8 people (or more). :crying: And I could never park one of those deluxe super 18 wheelers in my driveway.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

There are so many forces at work here. If we are saying the economy is bad so we have to reduce costs, does that mean when it is good we then have to raise costs again?

The car counts are not great at some shows, but then they are outstanding at some of the most expensive shows to run. How can you tell USAC and Hoosier there is a problem?

As far as making the the racing cheaper to get people back to racing again, I'm not sure that really works. If you change the car,tires, and engine rules, then people who have cars just sitting will not be able to bring them back out because of the costs to convert and/or buy a new car. Especially since they cannot sell their old ones to get the money. Racers have cited costs as the reason to quit racing since the first racer quit racing.

Although costs are usually cited as the reasons people quit racing, usually it's a culmination of things like loss of dispossible income,loss of desire or the natual progression of some peoples lives that when combined with the costs make for a recipe that leads people out of the sport.

In racing, at least the USAC level of racing and up, there really is no passive involvement in terms of car owners and drivers. You have to be commited to do it well. People who have been in the sport as long as the Hoffmans and Wilke's have done it because of their intense desire to compete in the sport of auto-racing and open wheel racing in particular. Unfortunately, there are fewer and fewer long term competitors like these racing anymore. Many reasons besides costs contribute to that, but we also have a different breed of racer today.

My dad worked for Carl Gehlhausen. People would tell Carl:"Look at all of the money you would have if he didn't have race cars" and he would tell them he wouldn't have the desire to get the money if he weren't racing. He loved to race and would do whatever it took to go racing.

All of this said; I do believe that some limitations need to be put in place to help keep the sport going in a positive, forward direction. As I stated before; I believe that tires need to be addressed first because of the amount of on going cost associated with them to stay truely competitive. I don't care if Hoosier is the tire of choice or not and I honestly don't care what compound they run, but knowing the costs to run the cars and the limited purse money available; USAC should make sure that the tires are used as economically feesable as possible to make sure that their true product, the racers and races themselves are healthy.

Me personally, I would think a more prudent choice would be a tire company that had a National/International advertising campaign would be a better choice. A company such as Goodyear,Firestone/Bridgestone,Michilin, or Yokahoma that could not only put up the purse money but weave the sport into their ad campaigns. Provide a place where USAC could go in and do some pre-race marketing with drivers and show cars before an event. A company that doesn't really need racing to make it's money, but a company that can build a decent race tire.

Maybe with today's economy maybe that isn't likely, but then I would bet that it will never be looked at. When your organization relies so heavily on it's manufactures to supply them with money or what have you, then it gets hard to get off the teet.

As racers we get caught up in a faster tire or what have you, but truthfully we just need a solid tire and some sort of over sight. I also feel that since we already have the wheel sizes we do, then lets not screw with the tire widths.

Rob, I understand some of where you come from and I know that the reason you guys are able to race like you do is because you understand racing and are willing to do what it takes to compete. Not just spending money. The little things.

As a banker though, I'm sure you fully grasp more than any of us what the lack of over-sight and fouled up regulations will do if not kept in check. The pavement tire situation is out of control in my opinion and it needs to monitored.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Face it the reacers are their own worst enemy. The Wolverine group was founded to get the low budget guys out of the barn. Lower cost tires to be raced multiple times. Engines restricted for equal competition and longer life. Good racing, fun racing, but only 10 to 12 cars!

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

You have to look at the reasons there where only 10-12 cars. I have no idea what it was without studying it, but there may be numerous reasons that cannot be overcome in only a two-four year period.

Sometimes guys won't come out because they aren't buying into the program for some reason. That is basically what happened to X2RA. No one could get a grasp on what they where doing. Good guys, but confusing deal and people had already been burnt by NAMARS. To many promises without a track record.

Unfortunately,Sometimes there are just better programs out there that meet peoples needs better at the time.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Here are the twelve midget owners that support the entire USAC midget trail:

Tony Stewart Chevrolet
Kasey Kahne Mopar
Wilke-PAK Speedway (did not enter all the races)
Steve Lewis Toyota
Keith Kunz
Robert Fike
Windom
Billy Boat
Joe Loyet
East/Klatt Ford
Mentgen Fontana
Armstrong

1. I would have to say that 100% of these teams are not pressuring USAC to reduce the costs of midget racing. Just my opinion. There is one exception. Based on my conversations with Tony Stewart, I truely believe that he would be 100% in favor of a cost reduction program for USAC midgets.

2. Only 2 owners from POWRi "crossed the line" and participated in the 47 car count at the USAC Gas City Midget Week event. No owners from BMARA participated. The rest of the field, after considering the USAC regulars, was made up of "sometimes" owners. So the majority of the participants do not support the entire USAC midget trail.

3. ARDC (East Coast) is the only midget organization in the country that has taken a major diversion from USAC rules. They do not allow the new generation Fontana or Esslinger, as far as I know.

4. SMRS (Missouri/Oklahoma) allows unlimited engines and no tire rule. At least two of their participants raced at the USAC/POWRi Gold Crown Nationals.

5. 22 cars participated in the USAC Hut Hundred. 28 cars participated in the POWRi Belle-Clair, IL event the same evening.

6. In 1998 (ten years ago) BMARA had an average car count of 41.2 cars. In 2008 they averaged (not including the co sanctioned events with USAC) 21.2 (cars that took the green flag).

7. BMARA membership votes on their tire rules.

8. There are a large group of midget owners, especially from California and Indiana, who race once a year at the Chili Bowl.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Don: No matter how cheap they made it; many guys, including yourself, would not run all of the races. There are many tracks you won't run at because you don't like their size. Many people for example don't like the miles, but I personally loved racing at the miles. Plus, the miles are very much part of the history of midget racing. If they made it where the car cost $10,000 total and the tires where $50 ea. many guys still wouldn't come back because they have moved on.

No matter what, you cannot please everyone to the point that everyone always participates.

Buckwalter and Redinger came from ARDC and Joe Boyles came from SMRS.

Why would the Powri guys come to Gas City instead of staying and running Belleville,Il? Gas Prices where high, it was a work night and Belleville is a great midget track. I am impressed that around 70 midgets where running in the Midwest on a Wed. night.

I can tell you right now there are more than a couple of people on that list that would like to see costs reduced. Especially the recurring costs of the pavement tires.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Personally, I've never been interested in running a lot of races. I have too many other obligations to take care of. And as a spectator, I love the midgets on the dirt mile and the half mile type horse tracks. Seeing Arnie Knepper win many years ago at Springfield in the Martinez Higman built midget was a real treat. The races at the Ohio State Farigrounds on the half mile in the 1960's were great times in front of over 20,000 people.

The reason I put the various statistics in my post was for a very specific purpose. Statistics tell a story and most of the time you can come to a conclusion or some kind of direction. These statistics tell that a very small group of owners are the core of the USAC community. They are USAC's vehicle in marketing their product. So it's fair to say management is going to look after their needs first. Without visiting that saga again, we saw that happen at Liberty. We can also conclude that the overwelming majority of midget owners in the US have absolutely nothing to do with USAC.... except... that traditionally all the clubs in the US have followed the USAC rules with a little bit of give and take. So almost everybody is tied to the umbilical cord one way or another.

I think it's fair to say that almost all the POWRi and BMARA owners are not crossing over these days and particpating in USAC races. I would like to see these clubs finally cut the cord and get on with their own identity within reason. It's almost like these groups have never grown up. They're afraid to get out of their comfort zone. With BMARA, the statistic of a 50% drop in car count is alarming. At that rate, BMARA is going to be non existent in the near future.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

I have to admit that I have been surprised at the BMARA car counts, but with travel costs the last year I can undrtstand. Nine or Ten teams deciding not to make the Sun. night travel is noticiable and when they decide not to travel it is noticable.

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

I've been following this thread, with a lot of interest, because of my distaste for "spec tires", I feel like, for the most part, it will be self leveling, and the smartest racer, will pick the right tire, and it might be one he's had, hauled it all over hell's half acre, but he remembers how that tire worked, under the situation. I prefer to keep things simple, and to me, requiring everyone to wear the same shoes, is not an "economy run", besides having to ck them, and try somehow to determine if they've had any "treatments", another thing that can slow down the show. I remember the first time we ventured away from our home track, to race go-karts, on the WKA Championship level, Tony was just a pup then, but we went to Barnsville , Ga, Tony & Nelson took the "redeye", and got there Friday before noon, we'd been there since Wed nite, and had practiced with the "hot dogs", and were holding our own. When we started to leave, after practice, Friday eve, all the trash barrels were full of tires, most of them better than what we had to start Sat on. Needless to say, when racin started, we were dead meat, they had "outtired us". That was ashfault, I don't think it's that serious on dirt, most of the racing in Indiana, on dirt, is usually a dry, slick anyway, so maybe a half wore out, medium compound, would be the tire of the night, who knows, doesn't make much difference, if you spec a tire, someone will spend whatever it takes to keep fresh ones on, where if you open it up, the smart guy will come home the winner, and probably have a lighter tire bill. Which brings me to a "quote" I remembered, from Emerson "Dis" Dismore. I was sitting there one day, listening to him "berate" a customer, who was arguing over a couple bucks on a new Honda CB750, the guy finally says, "well, M&E will sell me one at that price", old Dis didn't bat an eye, looked right square at him and said, " your screw's in the water", and went back to talking to me. I guess we can all follow that advice. Bob

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

I am all for lowering costs for the racer, but unless you lower the cost of the tire you are not going to accomplish anything. Even if you make everyone run hard tires, the top ten teams will still always have stickers on, and you are opening up pandoras box of tire soaking. New tires will always be what new tires are!(faster than old ones)

Re: Racing tires! Midgets & sprints!
 

Been reading and thinking on this, and while I agree with Don that the basic premise that costs are out of control and purses aren't high enough etc., what I find interesting is the subject is the tire costs. Yes, especially on pavement, tire costs are and have been out of control. But the major cost of most racing, is not the tires, it's the motors. I would imagine more car owners could afford the tire bill if the motor bill wasn't so outrageous?

Take Rob's quarter midget comment (I can back him up on this, it's ridiculous)....the tires are about the ONLY thing cheaper on our quarter midget than on our TQ. People are throwing away $50-$60 tires after 25 laps. It's not the $50-$60 I can't afford, it's the $5000 motors in 2 or more different cars (which are about $5000 if bought completely new), and spare motors costing just as much sitting there just in case for a 7 yr old who when he gets out of the car is more interested in their PSP.

The point is, I believe you have a situation where $30,000-$50,000 engines essentially dominate the midget and sprint car ranks, at least on the national level, but yet we're worrying about saving $3000-$5000 a year on tires? If I'm already that far into it $$ wise to be there with the big dogs, another $5000 on tires, isn't going to stop me.