Pretty sure one the owners (Penske) that Is driving this "guaranteed locked in" deal, is the same one that wanted an "even playing field" when Tony Geroge tried to do the same thing in 1996. Penske and the Cart car owners took their cars to Michigan because they didn't like the IRL drivers getting a guaranteed locked in spot. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that's how it went down. I am a big Roger Penske fan but I see the irony in him wanting his drivers locked in, when he was totally against it after they missed the field in 1995.
Oh!! And don't worry about losing drivers and sponsor's. I saw 2 Arrow cars at the open test on Wednesday and pretty sure Pipa will be back this year.....:) Lets bump!!!!

Genesis and Andretti have taken the same postion. Rahal is also in this camp. Just talk at this point.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

1 provisional,1promoters option

Just use pill draw.

"If you are a full-time team,you have the advantage.If you are a well resourced full time team, there are no excuses. Indy is the one remaining place that DEMANDS you bring your A game,we are all competitors,let's not shy away from that"
JR Hildebrand

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Easy! Be one of the fastest 33 and you're locked in. Just the way it was meant to be.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Oh the hypocrisy. Isn't this what caused the US 500 at mis? Half the field crashed before the green after we were told they had the best drivers in the world. 70 plus entries at Indy that year, good crowd and race. I live 15 miles from mis and was offered as many tickets free as I wanted up to 50. I was friends with the director of competition of cart. He lost his job when they had to cancel the Texas cart show that one year. Short lived job but paid him well. I have come to terms with myself that cart won in the end. They got to the family and Tony was ousted. Same group of cart people now running the show. Mostly road and street courses with no whining of Indy just the other 2 high speed ovals.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Originally Posted by THS:
Pretty sure one the owners (Penske) that Is driving this "guaranteed locked in" deal, is the same one that wanted an "even playing field" when Tony Geroge tried to do the same thing in 1996. Penske and the Cart car owners took their cars to Michigan because they didn't like the IRL drivers getting a guaranteed locked in spot. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that's how it went down. I am a big Roger Penske fan but I see the irony in him wanting his drivers locked in, when he was totally against it after they missed the field in 1995.
Oh!! And don't worry about losing drivers and sponsor's. I saw 2 Arrow cars at the open test on Wednesday and pretty sure Pipa will be back this year.....:) Lets bump!!!!

Come on IndyCar... get your courage up and tell them "no" - despise the 25/8 idea

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Not much tradition left at the big oval,road course ,golf course. Concerts ,Motorcycles all we need is a midway with rides on the front stretch.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Originally Posted by Vookie:
"If you are a full-time team,you have the advantage.If you are a well resourced full time team, there are no excuses. Indy is the one remaining place that DEMANDS you bring your A game,we are all competitors,let's not shy away from that"
JR Hildebrand

In addition to this quote that ties into this topic, to me, JR has an all around solid Indy 500 record (in addition to a couple other podiums & top 5s on the circuit); with 5 "top 11s" in 8 starts. Really only one BAD result! - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._Hildebrand

...he only has had a couple FULL season chances, but seems to put in a solid 500 effort. & with the Ed Carpenter Racing connections, I have to wonder if he has took in some SC@M/SC races at any of the local dirt tracks...

.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Originally Posted by duel:
Oh the hypocrisy. Isn't this what caused the US 500 at mis? Half the field crashed before the green after we were told they had the best drivers in the world. 70 plus entries at Indy that year, good crowd and race. I live 15 miles from mis and was offered as many tickets free as I wanted up to 50. I was friends with the director of competition of cart. He lost his job when they had to cancel the Texas cart show that one year. Short lived job but paid him well. I have come to terms with myself that cart won in the end. They got to the family and Tony was ousted. Same group of cart people now running the show. Mostly road and street courses with no whining of Indy just the other 2 high speed ovals.

the 96 500 was the 2nd one I got to go too...it was awesome...the whole years of the "original" IRL was to me actly. But ya, there was an earlier caution at Indy, and word spread thru the 500 stands that those "best of the best" had wrecked up there! Created a nice buzz! This was b4 EVERYONE had cell phones...I think one guy was getting updates or even had a radio. It was just a cool day (became a big Buddy Lazier fan! Honestly! lol. He drove the Hemelgarn car, so why not!) - crowd really roared late for Robert Guerrero, I recall. - It's all too bad Tony, Hamilton, Boat, Beechler, etc never won the 500, but they really only had limited years, and had other success along the way. I'm NOT at terms (lol) but do enjoy Indy racing, so follow what it as I can. Still miss the original (stated) intent, but I'm glad I got to see those guys (and more) run Indycars...b4 1995, I doubted too many SC@M guys ever would...

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Originally Posted by GYATK94:
Yeah and the darn dirt track in turn three that drew one of the largest USAC midget car counts ever. The track showed no respect at all to that patch of grass traditionally occupying that space.

Eleven rows of three equalling thirty three cars, 200 laps totaling 500 miles and the goose bump inspiring pre race ceremonies are all the tradition I require. Last I checked, we’ve still got all three.

The Midget track is awesome,I didn't list it as things that hurt the tradition of 16th st. I remember a time when those same Midget drivers would be filling the field of 33. keeping the thread on topic , qualifying and bump day should be like the old day's and only the fastest 33 should take the green. When all you have is big teams left than every rule can be bought and changed.

The golf course was built decades ago,they raced motorcycles at IMS in 1909.
https://www.firstsuperspeedway.com/a...s-preparations

It was great to see Racin Gardner start the 500 in 1996.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Indianapolis_500

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

More hillbillification. All series do provisionals now. Probably won't make much difference. I just hope this doesn't lead to a chase, double file restarts, and stage racing.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Originally Posted by Vookie:
It was great to see Racin Gardner start the 500 in 1996.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Indianapolis_500

Yeah, how about Vicnenzo Sopherso who never raced on an oval or made a pit stop starting on the pole! That is when I realized the IRL dream of returning the Indy 500 to American open wheel drivers was just that. A dream.:):):)

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Racing should be about racing:31:, & racing all season long:6:, that NAPCAR Chase junk has ruined that series along w/ Provisionals, Lucky Dog & whatever else they've cooked up to make money:14:. Racing is go fast or go home for me, why I stick w/ short tracks:22:

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

No one here will be surprised if this nonsense becomes reality. Penske will look out for his interests (as we all would do) and will no doubt influence most other owners, except maybe Foyt. No one amasses a billion and a half, like Penske has, without covering their ass whenever possible. It's now up to Indycar and IMS to resist pressure. They've stayed true to tradition for the most part except for the funky qualifying procedure. I hope they don't knuckle under.

Originally Posted by The Old Coyote:
Yeah, how about Vicnenzo Sopherso who never raced on an oval or made a pit stop starting on the pole! That is when I realized the IRL dream of returning the Indy 500 to American open wheel drivers was just that. A dream.:):):)

Arie Luyendyk won the pole and the 500 that year.
The front row was Luyendyk,Tony Stewart and Sospiri.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Right Vookie it was outside front row. I have a good memory, it is short but good!

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

This is an interesting topic to ponder, debate, and watch. Many are pointing out that this suggestion for guaranteed starting spots in the 500 is the same as the 25/8 debacle of the mid-90s. It is, to a point, and there is a quite a bit of irony to it, I agree. I am going to take it to yet another level of irony:

When Tony George came up with the 25/8 rule for the 500, it changed American Open Wheel Racing forever since. His "motive" for doing so, in my opinion, was to get the upper hand in building his series which would subsequently replace the existing series, CART. The IRL was in its infancy at this time. He was using the Indianapolis Motor Speedway as leverage. This quickly got the ire of the CART side and whatever side of the table you were sitting at during that time period, we all know what happened after that.

This new suggestion by Penske, Ganassi, and Andretti (and whoever else might join in).... they are not on the outside looking IN like CART was when the IRL formed. These guys ARE the IndyCar series right now (along with others). They are INSIDE looking AROUND. There is no "rivalry" here.

George was trying to get the upper hand on his RIVALS (i.e. CART), not his own guys in his series. He NEEDED his guys, like all sanctioning bodies do.

What this NEW guaranteed starting spot thing reminds me more of is when the car owners in the top series staged their rebellion in the late 70s and formed CART. This basically was an overthrow of USAC sanctioning the series. Now, I know there was a plane crash involved and the table was tipped quite a bit, but that is how CART started - the owners trying to gain more say in running things. Well, they got their say - They got the whole sha-bang.

Then what happened THERE? CART went on to a decade and a half of true success and the Indianapolis 500 ALSO remained a true success, but not under CART rules. CART recognized it as one of their races, but entered under USAC rules. But sooner or later, the whole thing went full circle and.... well..... You know. So, yeah..... there is a LOT of irony and history here. One could suggest this is the first volley fired in that direction?

As George Santanyana once penned, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

An interesting topic to watch here it will be.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Originally Posted by Vookie:
Arie Luyendyk won the pole and the 500 that year.
The front row was Luyendyk,Tony Stewart and Sospiri.

& it was 1997. No way Tony woulda won an Indy car champ if it wasn't for Tony George. I know he had the Foyt test (b4 the Menards deal), but that was after the IRL was announced anyway

Love this thread. It brings me back to the time my knee-jerk reaction to a post from Mike about IndyCar caused me to apologize for not considering another point of view. Glad it happened though because I certainly do enjoy talking to him at the races when we get a chance. I certainly get the sentiment from full timers, but I don’t agree with it. No team or person is bigger than this event. Reminds me also of the second best racing quote I’ve ever heard, brought to mind by listening to Bob Jenkins on the Rip the Fence podcast. Al Unser Jr. in victory lane, looking to the heavens saying “you just don’t know what Indy means”. Bumping helped found “what Indy means”. Removing it, in my opinion, would take away some of that meaning.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

What's the point of Bump day if certain teams can't be bumped?

I was very upset with last years. Time stopped 15 minutes early so they could run a dozen more commercials and get a interview.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Originally Posted by flagboy55:
Love this thread. It brings me back to the time my knee-jerk reaction to a post from Mike about IndyCar caused me to apologize for not considering another point of view. Glad it happened though because I certainly do enjoy talking to him at the races when we get a chance. I certainly get the sentiment from full timers, but I don’t agree with it. No team or person is bigger than this event. Reminds me also of the second best racing quote I’ve ever heard, brought to mind by listening to Bob Jenkins on the Rip the Fence podcast. Al Unser Jr. in victory lane, looking to the heavens saying “you just don’t know what Indy means”. Bumping helped found “what Indy means”. Removing it, in my opinion, would take away some of that meaning.

And as I was discussing this thread with flagboy55 off line via PMs, the irony of an ex-CART owner proposing this idea never hit me until someone here pointed it out. Then I started thinking about the formation of CART.

One thing is for sure - the show will go on. HOW it will go on, we'll see. Kokomo sure isn't going on tonight, though. :13:

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
Time stopped 15 minutes early so they could run a dozen more commercials and get a interview.

It ends a lot earlier this year. All qualifying is done at 2:15 PM on Sunday. Open Practice starts again at 3:15 PM.

And if you didn't make the top 30 on Saturday you get just one chance for an hour on Sunday to get one of the last row positions.

On Sunday morning, there will be a 30-minute practice session for the nine cars competing for pole, followed by a 30-minute practice for the expected six or seven cars vying for one of the three slots on the back row of the grid.

At 12.15pm, Last Row Qualifying will begin, order set by the original Friday night draw, with just one attempt allowed per car.

At 1.15pm, the Fast Nine shootout for pole commences, with cars running in the order of the Saturday times, slowest to fastest, and again just one run is permitted per entrant.

An hour after that, at 3.15pm, the track will re-open for a 2hr45min practice session for all 33 qualified cars. There will be a further practice for these 33 on Monday May 20, from 12 until 2pm.

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

This isn't the same as 25/8.

One thing that would stop this push by the owners would be to go back to a qualifying format that would allow multiple runs to bump. Positions 1-30 are locked in on Saturday with 1-9 going for pole on Sunday and 31-33 up for bump with one run per car. From a business standpoint there are legit concerns from the full time side in regards to sponsors. SPM got lucky that they had a sponsor that stuck with them and expanded after being bumped. While four days are no longer needed due to numbers they do need to set it qualifying better than it currently is. They need to allow Sunday to be a full day of bumping minus the short session for the first three rows. The current format is pretty much made for TV in how it's set up.

Graham Rahal checks in.
"I think it's only fair to earn your way into this race.
I'm not a fan of it...you don't get race in this race because it's owed to you. It's not owned to you.it's an honor to be part of it and therefore I'm not a fan."

Re: Indy 500 " lock-ins" !?!?!
 

What would be better than Johnny Parsons coming out of the garage area with about a half hour left in qualifying. Take one practice run, then bump someone and put it in the show. That is what Indy is supposed to be. Remember when you could go to a practice day and sit anywhere you want. Spend the day, pure fun, go to Union Jacks for Pizza, then head for IRP or one of the many Sprint Car tracks for a night of racing.

Originally Posted by HDINDY:
Not much tradition left at the big oval,road course ,golf course. Concerts ,Motorcycles all we need is a midway with rides on the front stretch.

How many folks might be at least mildly interested in the 500 because they went to a concert there? It's a way to put the race in the consciousness of folks who might not otherwise give auto racing a second of thought.

1910 aviation show at IMS.

https://www.firstsuperspeedway.com/articles/category/59

I have the same feeling about this lock in situation as I did about the 25/8 situation. To me the fastest 33 belong in the first 11 rows. If you want to guarantee spots just add them to the field. It's a really big track and theres plenty of room for your guaranteed spots to add on to the tail of the field. My first preference would be the traditional bump day that actually meant something, but apparently I'm living in the past with this thinking.

Looking back a few decades.
Cars bumped:
1969-2
1979-2 but those two started the race.
1989-2
1999-5
2009-2

Dr Indy had a terrific site to the history of the 500 but most of the statistics are no longer on his new
site.
If three cars get bumped this year,that's about average.