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Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
We ran into a situation where our driver was accused of hitting the restart cone Saturday night. The officials were unable to provide any evidence of this and we lost the transfer spot and points. This cost us dearly since we were in the points lead. Whether Dickie hit the cone or not , in this day and age wouldn’t you think a track would be able to provide video for situations like this? When I addressed the issue with the track on social media I was blocked from Commenting or messaging on the track’s page. I did not swear or use vulgure language just asked a question. I find it very unprofessional to handle the situation this way. Any thoughts or video footage of the race would be helpful thanks.
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Unfortunately, my thoughts are that Dickie for sure hit the cone. It’s too bad they blocked you from their page though. Maybe they’d rather not deal with it on social media? I’m not sure.
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And that’s fine Shawn, if he did hit the cone but believed he didn’t wouldn’t you as a track promoter have all ends covered by getting videos of restarts and other situations just to put controversy like this to bed. Also to just avoid the whole thing especially after getting feedback from other racers and pit members saying otherwise is pretty unprofessional.
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Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
I don't know that many tracks actually have video for specific purposes of evidence, some have video makers and sellers.
Speedshifttv.com has the event on their replay plan. That being said, the camera usually follows the first two cars. Don't know if it would be worth your while to purchase that. Maybe someone who has it can watch and see if it shows anything I can't imagine calling the penalty just to punish him, Yet all rules have to be enforced equally. Good Luck JSR. |
I understand, Chuckwells, for sure. It’s frustrating and you want answers. I was just giving my thoughts. It’s hard for a local track to have video of everything. It’d be nice, but It’s just not possible. I hope y’all have some good fortune going forward.
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All races and any other professional sporting events should be recorded bottom line. No excuse to not be this day and age. When you are dealing with people’s money and some people’s livelihood would be in the track’s best interest in my opinion.
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Thanks Shawn appreciate the kind words
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Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
This is one of those posts I know as I'm typing it biting the tongue would have been the better option. But this is raw nerve territory for me as a race track promoter.
[BEGIN RANT] I don't feel like even in this day and age a track owes you video proof. What a track owes you as a competitor is a staff that is experienced, thoughtful and capable of making the best decision they can without prejudice or bias under the circumstances. I don't have the luxury of a TV truck and 5 different camera angles and staff to stop a race and review video footage like you would in professional sports and get a call right at the time it happens. Nor do the fans who pay your purse want to sit through that. And yes.. that video proof would have to happen right after the incident. Not at the end of the race. It's just as unfair to the guy you are going to penalize to wait until all chance for him to pass and overcome the penalty is gone as it is to not penalize in the first place. The NFL doesn't wait till a game ends 4th and goal at the three yard line, then the next day come back and say video shows they missed a 10 yard penalty in the 1st quarter so they are going to award a touchdown. What you are talking about is a race stoppage to review video. Where is the car that later was determined to have not hit the cone going to be scored? Where he was running at the time of the bad call? It might have been lap 3 and the whole field was going to pass him anyway. We don't need race stoppages to review video. The only time in our form of racing a video could be properly implemented is pretty much on the last lap of a race at or near the finish line. Otherwise any call you correct after the race or the next day does not take into account the racing that was yet to be completed. A track hires the best crew it can hire and every one of them at tracks across America make the best calls they can at the time under the circumstances. They aren't always dead-on perfect -but they are right a whole lot more often than given credit for. I don't expect my officials to be perfect. I expect their best effort and reasoned decisions. When they screw one up and we know it - we admit it and try to remedy it the best we can given what transpired afterwards. Some calls go for you and some against you. We get some right and I know we will occasionally get one wrong. But don't ask me to review video and change 10 laps of racing that went on in the interim. It's darn hard to fix a problem after the racing is completed. Officials are expected to be perfect every lap of every race for an entire season. A race team... a couple perfect nights a year makes for a really good season. [/END RANT] |
Nobody is talking about five different angles with a production crew and I’m not saying the track owes us anything. I am saying if I am a track owner I would have one of my officials on the infield with his smart phone recording the race to go back to for any explanation of a situation. You don’t have to stop a race to check either. You can go to the video in between races. It’s very simple don’t make it sound like we are asking for a lot when I see people post longer videos about what they are gonna eat that day online. Anytime someone is getting paid to play you should be recording so you can show that person why. I deal with professional athletes from many different sports and can’t think of one besides dirt track racing that isn’t required to video each event. Even a small time MMA event in the backwoods of Kentucky with maybe 100 people in attendance is required by Law to record their event . Even if it’s Billy Bob standing on a ladder with his 1999 flip phone atleast it’s something. Like I said , it’s not asking for much and we aren’t the only team to feel this way either. We were approached by several other drivers and crew members that expressed the same feelings.
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Easy solution, put a go pro on The official responsible for the cone. He watches the restarts and watches the race. Problem solved, cost = 200$ for the GoPro very easy. Of course there will be situations when the field is so far spread out that he will not be able to catch everything on video but at least an effort was made. Instead of making excuses about not having the money to do something at least make an effort. It’s simple don’t make it a lot more complicated than it really is to try and justify not doing anything.
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Chuck I think the best solution for you would be for you to have somebody videotape your driver and just your driver that way if there's an issue you will have video proof and won't have to rely on somebody not getting your driver in their shot
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Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
sometimes in racing you win by the rules and sometimes you lose by the rules. In Dickie's long career there is probably an instance that he became the racer that got a break and now someone else did. I am sure that he is popular at that track and they probably felt bad about having to implement the rule. However, put your self in DiMattia's shoes if they did not implement the rule.
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Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
While I understood the cone thing, I really had no real thoughts on it, same for me, as anyone else, however, it became very frustrating at times, when you ended up behind a "cripple", and had to wait your turn to go past the cone, it seemed to work best, when they placed it in a turn, it was easier to see, and also easier to watch, plus most folks were riding high, to get a good start at the straights, but like they say, sometimes you're the bug, and sometimes you're the windshield, just an uncontrolled part of racing. JMHO! Bob
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Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
I totally understand the frustration. You were in the point lead and a non transfer kills you.
I don't know any racing below Nascar and Indycar that has multi cams or for that matter ever had a officials decision overturned by video. Even Eldora. It's kinda like jumping the start, It's always unfair if your the one who got called for it, but it was the right call to everyone who didn't. I've also seen dozens of times where they've helped teams, Allowing up to 23 to start the feature and even once 27 when technically somebody should get ticked that they're allowed to gain position and points when they typically wouldn't have made the feature. I know lots of tracks that always run a consi when there are 21 cars or more. Times where they paid start money to someone who blew up in a heat and couldn't take the green for the feature. Times stayed late helping a team get a car loaded due to a malfunctoning hauler. Oh well, Like I said, Im a fan of JSR and have been when Jason was with us. I do know one thing, If I had a employee doing a job, Id back that employee until it was proven they were incompetent. I see no reason why someone would make that call if it wasn't true. |
At least you didn't act like Tyler Walker when he hit the cone.
LOL |
You guys are missing the point here. I am totally ok with the cone and the ruling. I was saying as a track promoter or owner I would want all my guys covered. If an official makes a call and somebody disagrees. Here you go here is the video no questions asked. You are making it much more complicated than it is. It’s really very simple lol.
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Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
And then what do you do if the video shows he didn't hit the cone? Tracks can apologize with or without video... but you still aren't going to get the win or points if there was racing left to complete after it happened.
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Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
Originally Posted by Chuckwells: |
Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
Track is under no obligation to record the start, but from this discussion, it seems it would be better if they did....
Good things can always be improved.... |
It’s easy, you give the guy back his transfer spot. It’s obvious you aren’t getting what happened in this particular situation. The video could be checked while the other race was being staged. If he hit it ruling stands if he didn’t you give him his transfer spot . Way over thinking this really. This isn’t like the NFL when we are gonna take 15 minutes to go over 20 different angles Jesus . Also there would only be certain times and situations that a ruling could be challenged. Restarts and other critical situations when a ruling was made by an official. I also I believe there should be a state sanctioning body created and present at each race.
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Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
I seem to remember the announcer saying there were two infractions. Not being nose to tail and hitting the cone. Both are in the rule book but he was only charged with hitting the cone.
Hate this both for you guys and the track. I do have faith you can make it up. Good luck! |
Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
Originally Posted by Chuckwells: |
Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
As per Lawrenceburg Speedway track rules:
The driver and owner assumes responsibility for all actions of the pit crew, sponsors, and themselves at all times and shall be the sole spokesperson for the car and crew in any and all matters pertaining to the race and with officials in charge. If the driver is also the owners, only he/she will be the sole spokesperson.I am not sure who Chuck Wells is but he is neither the owner nor the driver of the car that was penalized. Although he has no recourse in what transpired Saturday night I am still going to try to address his concerns. ---------- The Lawrenceburg Speedway Facebook page is a marketing tool to promote the racetrack. It is not a place to debate calls, rule changes, or air your grievances. There are other avenues for the appropriate people to take if they have those issues. To tell people to "go to their page and blow up their page and make them respond" is childish. ---------- Saturday was the annual USAC Midget Week show at Lawrenceburg which is a little different than our normal race nights. Since USAC was in-house there was some time throughout the night where track officials weren't busy trying to run a smooth and speedy program for the fans and competitors. On the final restart of the Sprint B Main Dickie Gaines hit the cone. At least five race officials (some with decades of experience) saw him hit the cone. Before the penalty was assessed they discussed the incident and they all agreed as to what had happened and that a penalty was required. It was announced over the PA that Gaines hit the cone, it went flying across the track, and he was penalized two positions and therefore did not transfer to the feature. The Race Director left the tower and went to the pits to inform the team. Subsequently, Gaines came to the tower asking about the penalty and was told multiple officials saw him hit the cone and that was why he was penalized. I want to make this perfectly clear. We are not going to penalize anyone unless we are 100% certain as to what happened. ---------- Speedshift TV was at the track recording for their live pay-per-view broadcast. This is something that doesn't happen on a regular race night. The video is available to watch online, which I did and gathered these screenshots: http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...psw9mkgrkj.jpg In this screenshot from the final restart you can see race leader JJ Hughes approaching the flagstand followed by Clinton Boyles, Michael Fischesser, Tony DiMattia, Dickie Gaines, Shawn Westerfeld and others. The restart cone is visible to the left (inside) of Fischesser. Drivers are told they must remain nose-to-tail until they pass the cone. They must not go under the cone or touch the cone. http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...psl7j9hznh.jpg Continuing in sequence Hughes has reached the flagstand and is followed by Boyles, Fischesser, DiMattia, and Gaines who is moving to the inside of DiMattia. The restart cone is visible just above the roll cage of Fischesser. http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...psxcpk0p4d.jpg Hughes has just now passed the flagstand followed by Boyles and Fischesser. DiMattia has almost reached the cone which you can see slightly ahead of, and to the left of, his left front tire. Gaines has continued to move to the inside of DiMattia and is heading towards the cone. http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...pshehhaha7.jpg Hughes is now almost out of frame followed by Boyle and Fischesser who have not yet reached the flagstand. The front of DiMattia's car has cleared the cone with Gaines still to his inside. The cone is directly in front of Gaines. http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps01d9dvfo.jpg The camera has begun to pan to the right to follow Hughes who has almost exited the frame. Boyles and Fischesser are still racing towards the flagstand, and DiMattia is passing the cone. DiMattia's right front tire is not visible in this screen grab but you can see the nose of Gaines' car approaching the cone. http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...psj4kj0soe.jpg I have zoomed in the best I could to show the area in question. For perspective I have kept the top of Fischesser's roll cage in the shot. This is the last screenshot I could grab showing the cone because the camera pans away from this area. In the split second before Gaines reaches the area of the restart cone he is clearly to DiMattia's inside and not nose-to-tail as our rules require him to be. ---------- The penalty for going under the cone, hitting the cone, or getting out of line (not being nose-to-tail) is the same — two positions for each position gained. The officials determined a two-position penalty was warranted and Gaines was repositioned from fourth to sixth place in the final finishing order. ---------- I would also like to emphasize that these screenshots were taken from the SpeedshiftTV video. People who do this for a living, not Billy Bob standing on a ladder with a 1999 flip phone. Also, I have put a lot of time into this little "presentation" and for anyone to think that this could be done on a race night, during an event, well they don't realize how much work goes into running a race. |
I appreciate your presentation and explanation of the rule ( that I’m well aware of). Definitely shows Dickie with at least one infraction of the rules. I am well aware of what goes down been going to the track for years and been a part of Jason’s team since the mini sprints. Just like you back your crew I back my driver and my driver swore he didn’t hit that cone. But I still believe firmly in what I said in this thread, a promoter should make some type of effort to record each event and not rely on an outside source to come up with the footage. Not only for situations like this but for liability issues.
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Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
Originally Posted by Chuckwells: I came up with a very basic replay system that used a video mixer for a track I worked for and the replay went undefeated every time a driver challenged a call. Point is a call is more likely to go against you if a track is carrying a video system than it is to over turn a decision in your favor. |
We use to have a GoPro on the car but stopped using it. We really don’t care which way the call goes as long as it’s the right one. We will start recording the races again for sure. I appreciate everyone’s feedback and hopefully some changes can be made in the future to make situations like this a lot more simple to figure out and resolve. And Sandy as for who I am, I am Jason’s friend/ brother in law/ pit crew / I work for a law office and in sports management , father of three (soon to be four) , I enjoy long walks on the beach and listening to my favorite Air Supply albums lol. Jokes.
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Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
You work in a law office and you called this a "traversey" ?
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It was a play on words , I was making a funny. If we don’t have humor then we may as well be dead.
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Dammit I spelled it wrong lol. Didn’t say I was 5th grade spelling champ.
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This has to be the dumbest post I have ever seen.
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You may think this was a dumb post but it accomplished exactly what our team wanted. Whether it was the outcome we wanted or not it gives peace of mind. The foul was committed there are screen shots to prove it end of story. apparently you read it so there was also some entertainment value as well. So you call it dumb but I call it productive.
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Originally Posted by JDK222: |
Re: Lawrenceburg Cone-traversey
. I also I believe there should be a state sanctioning body created and present at each race.[/QUOTE]
And you probably want higher purses,only one class of cars per night, bring in your own cooler,put your blanket down 12 days early and a discount on 5$ night but let the state in to run or oversee racing. Then hitting the cone will become a moving violation and we can use their red light cameras to send you a 2 spot penalty in the mail. Problem solved via more rules and the government "helping" |
Dang, I was hoping this thread had sumthin to do with no ice cream cones at the track. That would be a “traversey”.
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