Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Looking around the good old net and I see there is going to be a East Coast Non Wing series with 360's, Like the SW tour, and looking on Facebook it looks to be a non wing series in the Oklahoma area. The series in Oklahoma will consist of 2 to 4 barrel steel block steel head motors, 305's and Oklahoma Championship sprint car motor rules (Oil Capital Racing Series). The Texas area has a wingless series that is now part of Power I that is open motor rules like War in Mo.

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Lets hope non-wing keeps growing and spreading. Would love to see it come to Georgia.

I think lernerville is taking on a non-wing crate motor division...

My fear is too many classes/ different rules will ultimately negatively affect car count

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Originally Posted by chastaj:
My fear is too many classes/ different rules will ultimately negatively affect car count

I understand that, its why I oppose a crate division. Crate obliterated DLM(Super & Limited) here in the south, if you wanna run limited or Super you have to travel. Now even the 604's have splintered again into 602 ONLY and rebuilding or blue printing is, "ILLEGAL", you have to throw the engine away...

I guess in OW its kind of the same way how they keep getting smaller and smaller with the cars. To me 3 types of open wheel is plenty, Silver Crown, Sprint & Midget. You should be able to satisfy everyone within those 3 platforms, IMHO. I myself started in kart and see that as a good feeder into OW, but now I see a trend for racers to just get wilder with the karts instead of moving up to Midget.

These 602 Sprints they're bringing about aren't as cost effective as they'd pretend they are, you could build a better motor yourself for a 1/3 the cost of what they are offering. Having said all that if it would get people in my area to consider sprints I might consider capitulating on a crate as a place to start.

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

It seems to me that a crate engine class can do just the opposite of what has been suggested. A beginners class with the goal being to have drivers move up to the 410"s. Then when they do move up hopefully there would be some good used crate cars for sale for the new guys.
Here where I am I'd take any nonwing sprintcar class offered. They race crap cars around these parts.

p.s. good used crate 602"s are cheap around here. You could buy a good used engine every season for years and not spend near what you would to build your own engine. A lot of guys replace their engines yearly and a well maintained 602 can last a few seasons.

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Originally Posted by chastaj:
My fear is too many classes/ different rules will ultimately negatively affect car count

That might be a concern in places where wingless sprint cars already exist, but it sounds like some of this stuff will be in places where there are none

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Originally Posted by Backitin:
p.s. good used crate 602"s are cheap around here. You could buy a good used engine every season for years and not spend near what you would to build your own engine. A lot of guys replace their engines yearly and a well maintained 602 can last a few seasons.

You see that's the catch, you can't just grab up any 602 and use it, it has to be sealed by Pace. The std 602 oil pan has to be swapped too. The ready to go 602 is $7878.00. Now if you already have a carb and pulley setup you can get it cheaper. They have special headers, special shocks, special tires and a special ignition box. To me it makes more economic sense to go about the problem a different way, but then you cut out the "Crate" cottage industry and all there specified parts they want to sell you.

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
You see that's the catch, you can't just grab up any 602 and use it, it has to be sealed by Pace. The std 602 oil pan has to be swapped too. The ready to go 602 is $7878.00...

Actually, a sealed 602 Sprint Car engine from Pace is $4353.86, which has the proper oil pan.

https://paceperformance.com/i-207584...te-engine.html

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Originally Posted by ChetC:
Actually, a sealed 602 Sprint Car engine from Pace is $4353.86, which has the proper oil pan.

https://paceperformance.com/i-207584...te-engine.html

That's NOT the fully ready to go 602, but if you already have some of the "specific" parts you can use the engine you listed.

The total package. $7878.32

http://paceperformance.com/i-2316772...te-engine.html
https://paceperformance.com/images/M142754442.jpg

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
That's NOT the fully ready to go 602, but if you already have some of the "specific" parts you can use the engine you listed.

Ahh, ok. I was wondering because we see a lot of 602 and 604 crates in the IMCA racing we cover and I knew the 604 was around $5500. I was confused as to why the 602 would be more expensive which led to my quick Google. I see where you're coming from now. Sorry about that!

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Originally Posted by ChetC:
Ahh, ok. I was wondering because we see a lot of 602 and 604 crates in the IMCA racing we cover and I knew the 604 was around $5500. I was confused as to why the 602 would be more expensive which led to my quick Google. I see where you're coming from now. Sorry about that!

No worries. I'm glad to see non-wing sprints growing, but I just don't agree with crates as being the sole engine of a class. Crates lead to lazy tech and often boring racing. UMSS I think offers a better plan for entry level/sportsman non-wing sprints. Good racing and cheaper initial cost.

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
No worries. I'm glad to see non-wing sprints growing, but I just don't agree with crates as being the sole engine of a class. Crates lead to lazy tech and often boring racing. UMSS I think offers a better plan for entry level/sportsman non-wing sprints. Good racing and cheaper initial cost.

A complete race ready engine for less then $8000.00 brand new, heck that sounds quite inexpensive in todays market.
I'm not saying that crate engine are the only way to go but they have a place in economical racing.
I'm sure that theres folks out there that can build a great engine for less, I'm also sure that most racers will end up spending more in the long run by building they're own engines. After the second or third engine failure the cars end up parked. I've known very few guys that could build they're own engines and have them last. Sure you could have a pro build your "inexpensive" engine, after labor it will be very expensive.
They run 602's in the mods around here and they tend to be bullet proof. You can pickup a completely race ready used engine for under $3000.00 use it for two seasons and get 1500.00 for it. You mention changing pans and such but once a series gets going down the road there will be complete used engines available.
Take the same guys two races, one using 400 h.p cars the other using 800 h.p cars. The racing would most likely be just as good with the 400 hp cars on a good sprintcar track. I'm not saying you guys shouldn't want and get 410 racing, but I'd love to have the crate cars if they were here to get thing bump started.
As for boring crate racing it would still be far better then any winged racing and quite a bit less expensive.

Originally Posted by Backitin:
A complete race ready engine for less then $8000.00 brand new, heck that sounds quite inexpensive in todays market.
I'm not saying that crate engine are the only way to go but they have a place in economical racing.
I'm sure that theres folks out there that can build a great engine for less, I'm also sure that most racers will end up spending more in the long run by building they're own engines. After the second or third engine failure the cars end up parked. I've known very few guys that could build they're own engines and have them last. Sure you could have a pro build your "inexpensive" engine, after labor it will be very expensive.
They run 602's in the mods around here and they tend to be bullet proof. You can pickup a completely race ready used engine for under $3000.00 use it for two seasons and get 1500.00 for it. You mention changing pans and such but once a series gets going down the road there will be complete used engines available.
Take the same guys two races, one using 400 h.p cars the other using 800 h.p cars. The racing would most likely be just as good with the 400 hp cars on a good sprintcar track. I'm not saying you guys shouldn't want and get 410 racing, but I'd love to have the crate cars if they were here to get thing bump started.
As for boring crate racing it would still be far better then any winged racing and quite a bit less expensive.

Crates have a place, for those who are unable to build there own, but why should I be penalized because I bothered to learn how to build an engine. Lastly, it’s against the rules to run just any used 602, you have to use the one they fixed up with their seals, no bargain shopping allowed.

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
Crates have a place, for those who are unable to build there own, but why should I be penalized because I bothered to learn how to build an engine. Lastly, it’s against the rules to run just any used 602, you have to use the one they fixed up with their seals, no bargain shopping allowed.

Why would you feel penalized if you couldn't run your home built engine in a crate class ? It is called a crate class for a reason. You assume that because someone would chose to run a crate class that they cant build a engine, how can you be sure that half the guys running a crate class couldn't build a better engine then you ? Maybe they have lives out side of racing and would rather buy a inexpensive engine and have some fun racing instead of being a full time mechanic after they come home from a full time job.
If like you stated you have to use a engine sealed by the same body that runs the races, well that makes no sense. Why couldn't a sealed factory engine be used ? If they unseal your engine, inspect then reseal it makes no sense unless the seals can be tampered with. If you cant just go out buy a used sealed engine and race then it seems like they are shooting themselves in the foot right off the bat.
Just wondering where you run your homebuilt engines ?

Re: Seems as if USAC is adding some Non-Wing divisions
 

Originally Posted by Backitin:
Why would you feel penalized if you couldn't run your home built engine in a crate class ? It is called a crate class for a reason. You assume that because someone would chose to run a crate class that they cant build a engine, how can you be sure that half the guys running a crate class couldn't build a better engine then you ? Maybe they have lives out side of racing and would rather buy a inexpensive engine and have some fun racing instead of being a full time mechanic after they come home from a full time job.
If like you stated you have to use a engine sealed by the same body that runs the races, well that makes no sense. Why couldn't a sealed factory engine be used ? If they unseal your engine, inspect then reseal it makes no sense unless the seals can be tampered with. If you cant just go out buy a used sealed engine and race then it seems like they are shooting themselves in the foot right off the bat.
Just wondering where you run your homebuilt engines ?

You've jumped in the middle of a conversation I was having with someone else. We were discussing different approaches to a feeder non-wing class. I prefer a more "Free Market" approach as to a "Collectivist" approach like, "Crate Only". An inclusive class, rather than an exclusive class, ALL makes are welcome. Allow those who don't know or don't wish to know how to build an engine, to run a crate. For those of us who can take a bother, to build their own. UMSS is a good example of the "Free Market" approach.