ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

I bought this car in Muncie Indiana and was told it was a mid 60's car and possibly a Lloyd Shores car. I have my doubts that either one is correct. I already know the tank is not correct for the car and the rear end has been changed and the cage has been cut off but that's about all I know.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...t/My%20car.jpg

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

What cage would be on a mid sixties car unless one was later added?

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

I showed pictures to a long time chassis builder/repairer and he said in the early 70's many tracks required a full cage while some only ran a hoop so many cars were built or modified to fit the rules where they ran and some even had bolt cages so they could run anywhere. He is going to do some work on the chassis later this year and will be able to tell me more then. He said the car looks like it could be from the 60's or early 70's because that is the body style they ran at the time. He said that body work was built for that chassis because it wouldn't fit on a later chassis without modifications.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

I've looked at 100's of pictures from that era and there were quite a few full cage cars with that body style in the late 60's and early 70's but most ran a hoop. http://www.colesracingphotos.com/Ken...0293&k=sRXZvG2

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

this car was built in 1989, I put this body on it 2 years ago, your car is not a 60's car I amguessing late 80's early 90's without looking closer

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

looking at the way they cut the cage brace I'm guessing yours is newer than mine it was definitely built with a cage

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by racer5c:
this car was built in 1989, I put this body on it 2 years ago, your car is not a 60's car I amguessing late 80's early 90's without looking closer

Older than that for sure, It sat in the last shop for over twenty years and was told it sat for a very long time before he got it. The person he got it from started to make it a street car and never finished. He was told it was last on the track in the late 70's.
I guess it really doesn't matter what year it is, It's going to be a street car very soon and will possibly be getting a bolt on cage and roll bar so I can drive it on the street and track.
I really need another hood like the one that's on it so I can make some changes with cutting up the original.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by racer5c:
looking at the way they cut the cage brace I'm guessing yours is newer than mine it was definitely built with a cage

What cage braces are you talking about? There aren't any in the pictures other than the seat mount.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

behind the seat, cars weren't built like that in the time frame you refer to, shock towers didn't use sliders until late 70's early 80's looks like aluminum torsion arms, again they weren't used till late 70's early 80's looks like aluminum radius rods, etc etc etc

post more detailed pictures

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

funny how people ask about things then don't want to hear the truth

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by racer5c:
funny how people ask about things then don't want to hear the truth

Funny how people like you assume they know what they are talking about.I already figured the car wasn't early 60's but figured if I posted it on several forums someone would recognize the car. I really don't care unless the car has important history behind. If it does then it will be saved and not cut up and turned into a street car.

I will also add nobody has shown me anything the proves what year the car is. There are pictures of cars very similar to this being run in the late 60's.... Yes with a full cage and lots of cars this style were ran in the 70's and early 80's. This car has been discussed by people in other forums and a couple chassis builders that have been in the business for many decades and they can't even be certain because it's easy to update chassis over time. I do know the car sat in a shop in Muncie for over 20 years and have no reason to believe I was lied to about everything else that I was told by the gentleman. I already know it's had extensive modifications done on the chassis to make room for the powerglide trans and modded for the wide five quick change it has now. When I get it stripped down and on the table to get a cage added and lengthened then I'll know more.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

your right I just saw my first race car last week have fun with your car

1) I'm fairly certain racer5c would be Roy Caruthers.
2) And I'm 100% certain that he is certain that he knows what he's talking about.
3) I'm most certain 99% of people that have ever known Roy would agree 100%

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by lllosingit2:
I showed pictures to a long time chassis builder/repairer and he said in the early 70's many tracks required a full cage while some only ran a hoop so many cars were built or modified to fit the rules where they ran and some even had bolt cages so they could run anywhere........

True for sprint cars but not Champ cars. In the 1960s it was true that some tracks allowed just roll bars while others didn't. But by 1970 just about every track in the country required cages after IMCA was sued in 1969 after having a driver killed when he was forced to remove his cage at one of their races. USAC made them mandatory for 1971 for sprints and midgets but most cars were already running them in 1970. As for Championship Dirt cars like yours cages weren't mandatory until 1972 although there were quite a few of them on the cars by 1971.

One more idea although you've probably already thought of it. You haven't mentioned the wheelbase on the Champ Car. If it's 100" this car could very well be one of the NCRA Champ Cars that ran in the Oklahoma area back in the 1980s. I believe Lloyd Shores did build some cars for that circuit. The use of wide-5 rear hubs was pretty common on that circuit which had evolved from big dirt supermodifieds.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

You want to say Roy Caruthers has no idea what he's talking about?

Please embarrass yourself some more. He was only trying to be helpful and you won't accept that?

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

2015-20=1995 so if it sat in a shop for 20 years it would have been made in 1995. To me it looks like a mid 80 car. When did ncra champ cars stop racing? It looks like one of them to me

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm not new to sprint cars myself and never said anyone was wrong. I have been told by many people that the car could be 70's to 80's and have not doubted anyone. The only reason the picture was posted was to see if anyone might recognize the car as it is now. I have a few people tell me without a doubt it's a late 60's and others say early 70's and yes others have said late 70's -early 80's, Many are old timers that have been around sprints longer than I have been alive. I do know that someone already started to modify it for street use/ Bars have been cut and some have been added and the rear was put in with a posi unit instead of a spool. Did anyone run a powerglide back then?
Car is 96"
I'll try to see if Trostle can look at it for me. I'm sure he's seen a few big cars in his day. He should at least be able to tell if and what has been modified.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
You want to say Roy Caruthers has no idea what he's talking about?

Please embarrass yourself some more. He was only trying to be helpful and you won't accept that?

I never said Roy Caruthers has no idea what he was talking about when it was about the car. My comment was directed at this comment by him. "funny how people ask about things then don't want to hear the truth" and my reply was "Funny how people like you assume they know what they are talking about."
He assumed I don't want to hear that the car is newer than I was told. That's not the case at all as I said in the same post it doesn't really make any difference unless the car has some history behind it. I would like to know more about the car because in the condition it's in now it could be saved but if I tear it down and rebuild it as a street car it would be a huge step backwards if the car was worth restoring. Chances are that it's just as old sprint car like thousands of old cars sitting in/behind a shop and not of much value but I would rather preserve something than destroy it if it's worth preserving.

Again no disrespect to anyone on this message board but you also have to understand that I have heard a hundred compelling reasons why it's for sure this year or that year and not just on this forum, It's been done on other forums and while standing next to the car looking at the chassis and people noting it has a fiberglass seat that looks correct for the year they stated. Pointing out the lack of modern nerf bar mounts on the chassis and so on.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

I took some more pictures, Let me know what you think and again I'm not really concerned about the year but I guess it would help in trying to find the history of the car.
I do appreciate the help!
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_184943.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_184953.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185003.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185026.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185111.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185137.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185147.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185232.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185245.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185252.jpg

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Ok if we are talking about old cars and restoring them, I have a question. Lets say I find the sprint car that Steve won the 1st World of Outlaw championship. It is in bad shape, has no motor. I make a new frame, copying the rusted, bent up old frame. I put together a new engine to go in it. Find a same year rear end, wheels, tires, shocks. Copy the bent up wing. Find a fuel cell tank that matches the one that should be on the car. Can I really say that it is the real car anymore? If I sell the car,but keep the old frame, did I really sell the car? With an old race car. What can you replace before it is not really the original car?

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by chop:
Ok if we are talking about old cars and restoring them, I have a question. Lets say I find the sprint car that Steve won the 1st World of Outlaw championship. It is in bad shape, has no motor. I make a new frame, copying the rusted, bent up old frame. I put together a new engine to go in it. Find a same year rear end, wheels, tires, shocks. Copy the bent up wing. Find a fuel cell tank that matches the one that should be on the car. Can I really say that it is the real car anymore? If I sell the car,but keep the old frame, did I really sell the car? With an old race car. What can you replace before it is not really the original car?

I guess that depends on a persons opinion. People restore muscle cars with little more than an original firewall and someone will still buy it. My opinion on a race car would be at least the original chassis since it's hand built and any other part that was hand built or at least remade by the original builder and the rest would have to be original period correct manufactured parts. I imagine most collector race cars are considerably less than 100% original, Most people didn't think to save them or they were crashed and rebuilt multiple times before being retired. Bob Trostle posted a picture of a car he fixed that was one of his, I would still consider it an original for the most part since he did the work. Here is what his post said

"here it is all done and ready to go to Australia this is chassis #344 built in June 1985 this car was driven by Max Dumesney that summer and during the Knoxville Nationals Max beat Doug Wolfgang in the Race of States that was the only race Doug lost in about 20 `races I sold this car to Butch Hanssen from Sioux Falls he raced it for 2 years then sold it to someone else who crashed and I got it in 1990 so it was about time I did something with it Lucky John Cooley is the proud owner"

Originally Posted by lllosingit2:
I took some more pictures, Let me know what you think and again I'm not really concerned about the year but I guess it would help in trying to find the history of the car.
I do appreciate the help!
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_184943.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_184953.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185003.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185026.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185111.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185137.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185147.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185232.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185245.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...831_185252.jpg

Roy wins. Oldest it could be is mid 80's. To much frame work out front and wrong cage mounts to be any older.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Just the construction of the car denotes mid 80s or newer. The triangular construction etc. Looks like they just cut the cage and put some classic body panels on it.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

No reason for me to feel bad chopping it up further then. Got to have more leg room and a cage back on it.

I would still like to keep it looking like a sprint car( my daughter would kill me) but can't help but wonder what kind of looks it would get if I put my Blown 6.0 in it with this injection on top.
I'll probably just stick with a naturally aspirated engine but still might be a LS3 instead of the SBC.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...der20Large.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...04677215_n.jpg

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Looks like it could be a Nance car with the bracing in front. Laverne built a lot of those cars for the boys in the NCRA.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

There is a NICE, Nance car for sale on Ebay right now, it has some similarities to the car you have, only this one is ready to race, no redo this, and redo that, slip in your PG, and put your required lights on it, may cost more up front, but this one is not a hack! Bob

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Those aren't nance quality welds

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Not saying it is a Nance built car, but the tank and rear bumper have that look from about 1981-82-83 that Nance had. Maybe from KS/Okla originally?

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
There is a NICE, Nance car for sale on Ebay right now, it has some similarities to the car you have, only this one is ready to race, no redo this, and redo that, slip in your PG, and put your required lights on it, may cost more up front, but this one is not a hack! Bob

The Nance is very nice and I would consider if I didn't already own this one. My car needs some work but Bob “Booby” Thompson at Jockos Sprint Parts said he could do the work over the winter so I know it will be done right and safe.
I actually like the idea of starting with what I have because then I can build it to my taste, I'm probably just going to redo the brake and fuel system and put on the parts required to get it titled then I'll tear it down and have the cage added and add about 6"-8" in the drivers compartment and possibly put the LS3 in it complete with EFI so it will be as simple as jumping in any other car and driving away. I already have a new wiring harness and lights and LS3 sitting in the shed so I don't really have much to buy. Motor plates are cheap and the LS3 will adapt easily to the powerglide and it should all fit under the hood without modifying anything. As much as I would like to turn it into a hot rod sprint car it will probably be done to look like an authentic sprinter ready to hit the track.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

It will be cool to see it when it's done!

Originally Posted by chop:
Ok if we are talking about old cars and restoring them, I have a question. Lets say I find the sprint car that Steve won the 1st World of Outlaw championship. It is in bad shape, has no motor. I make a new frame, copying the rusted, bent up old frame. I put together a new engine to go in it. Find a same year rear end, wheels, tires, shocks. Copy the bent up wing. Find a fuel cell tank that matches the one that should be on the car. Can I really say that it is the real car anymore? If I sell the car,but keep the old frame, did I really sell the car? With an old race car. What can you replace before it is not really the original car?

The general rule is 51% of the chassis. There are cars out there that are not what they claim to be and others that are huge question marks.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by racer5c:
this car was built in 1989, I put this body on it 2 years ago, your car is not a 60's car I amguessing late 80's early 90's without looking closer

This car was making laps at Paragon Saturday

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by mc/rider:
This car was making laps at Paragon Saturday

some old fat guy was driving it


https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...79868366018457

The chassis looks an awful lot like a 1981 Stanton I once had and ran in early 1990's, but someone cut off the cage on what you have there. The resemblance to a Stanton is diagonal 1" tubes next to engine, X in front top rails, bolt in piece of LR bottom frame rail for rear end removal.
Danny Williams, Jr.
Dynamite Welding
317-437-3313

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by racephoto1:
Looks like it could be a Nance car with the bracing in front. Laverne built a lot of those cars for the boys in the NCRA.

Not 100% certain yet but more and more it's looking like it's a Nance chassis that was stretched, Showed pictures to Bob Thompson and he said the steering is mounted like a Nance and also and he also commented on the removable frame section that Nance and Trostle used to do and some other stuff. I also found Nance cast into the Pressure plates at least that what I think they are called but those are easily interchanged. I'll find out more when I get it stripped down and to the shop.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

The tail is definately a Nance tail. But I'm pretty sure the rest of the car is not. I have 10 Nance chassis ranging from 1968 up to 1989. None of them are even close to this. But I will admit the car has been cut up quite a bit so it's hard to tell. I actually think it looks more like a mid 80's Shores car then anything. But I have often joked that Llyod Shores never built two cars alike. My first car was supposed to be a 1979 Shores. My Dad had a 79 Shores at the time. Later on, my friend Chad Delagrange had a 79 Shores. If you set all three of them side by side, you would swear they were all different brands.

But the steering mount, the shock mounts and the bar behind the seat all look like a Shores. Also, the torsion stops were a style that Shores used (along with other builders). The cut out for the rear end was very common among several builders. But the quality of work is not near the quality that Shores would do (or Nance). I almost wonder if some one built the car using two different chassis so to make it long enough for a transmission.

Also, in discussing how old the car is, this isn't conclusive, but in the early to mid 80's most chassis builders went from 5/8" bolts that held the radius rods on to 1/2" bolts. Something to check.

Tom Paterson

I know it's certainly not a Nance.

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
You want to say Roy Caruthers has no idea what he's talking about?

Please embarrass yourself some more. He was only trying to be helpful and you won't accept that?

Like he knew who the post was from. Why dont u step off ur high horse, charles. He was just looking for some info dude

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Originally Posted by hoosier sprinter:
Like he knew who the post was from. Why dont u step off ur high horse, charles. He was just looking for some info dude

This was like a month ago and we talked it out. Not only that, Roy pretty much said who he was.

Please bash the other two who said basically the same thing. We were only trying to help, Pointing out that it wasn't a 60s chassis when he was convinced it was.. But Oh well. I hope he finds out what he needs. Makes what he wants out of it and has a hell of a good time with it.

Climb off your high horse. Learn how to spell, and mind your own business.

Re: ID Help, Vintage Champ Car
 

Charles, thanks, it doesn't matter who I am I'm just a guy that likes old race cars like a lot of other people, it's just I've had a few people ask about cars, then want to argue about what it is, I guess they want to believe they have a historic car a car worth a lot of money who knows, like you said I hope he has fun with it however it turns out