Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

This is sure to rustle some feathers. What if? For one year, they run the Knoxville Raceway Nationals WITHOUT wings? What do you all think?

Personally, I'm partial to non wings, as most of the people on this site probably are. I just wanted to see what people had to say and wanted to see some of your thoughts.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

It would be great, but with that said the crowd at Knoxville doesn't support wingless...

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Save your breath! My August "must see" is the Kokomo Smackdown. These 3 days are simply the best three days in a row for non wing sprint car racing anywhere.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

I went to 20 Knoxville Nationals without wings, 1961-1981, for some reason they ran wings in 1973. Knoxville was just too big and fast to continue without wings at that time. A lot of bad stuff happened during this time. After the Gary Scott fatality in 1982 wings have been the norm at Knoxville. I know people that stopped going because they didn't like wings. Now most people there wouldn't go if they didn't run wings. Crowds were never very good the few times they ran wingless since.

It would be great, but will never happen. Wings are cool too, in my opinion. I would love it of they could incorporate both somehow. I don't have a clue how that could be done, though.

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They have the 360 nationals right before, why not add 3 more days for non wing nationals?

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Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Problem is Kinser, Swindell, Schatz, and the rest of the WOO wouldn't run top less if they had to. Without them would it really be a nationals?

You want thee best of the best there, and only the wingless driving half would be there, not the winged driver half.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Originally Posted by UberKuhlMan:
This is sure to rustle some feathers. What if? For one year, they run the Knoxville Raceway Nationals WITHOUT wings? What do you all think?

Personally, I'm partial to non wings, as most of the people on this site probably are. I just wanted to see what people had to say and wanted to see some of your thoughts.

No doubt that the wingless sprint cars put on a better display of driver abilities but the Knoxville fan base are jaded and without wings the gate would suffer. When the USAC sprints ran Knoxville two years ago it was among the best sprint car races ever held at Knoxville with a lot of passing and two and three abreast racing through the corners, and this is just the opinion of an old man who has seen wingless, winged and CAGELESS sprint cars.

Chris, I think you forget that Sammy Won a Non-Wing race there just a few years ago and I watched the King take the Wing off and spank the CRA boys at Eldora in 1990. More guys would than you think when the money is up for grabs! Haud, Stevie Smith, even Saldana may give it a go. The best Winged Drivers make great Non-Wing drivers. It has been proven many times.

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Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

If this were to happen, I'd be sure the BOSS non wing series was not only off that night, I would try to help my top 10 in points attend.

And as far as Kinser, Schatz, etc not attending and "would it be a nationals?" ....... heck yeah it would .......... it'd be open to anyone BRAVE enough to run without the wing.

Problem would be that the winged groups would see it as a threat and schedule races that night just to keep their stars away from this show.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Originally Posted by treecitytornado:
Chris, I think you forget that Sammy Won a Non-Wing race there just a few years ago and I watched the King take the Wing off and spank the CRA boys at Eldora in 1990. More guys would than you think when the money is up for grabs! Haud, Stevie Smith, even Saldana may give it a go. The best Winged Drivers make great Non-Wing drivers. It has been proven many times.

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treecity, I thought the MOPAR Million would draw Steve, Sammy, Joe and some of the other WOO boys also, but, in spite of one of the largest purses ever they didn't show up. Knoxville went to wings due to safety concerns and I doubt that they will ever change the format back to non-wing. JMO

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Cecil beat me to the punch. Also how many wing guys run Oskaloosa? They wouldn't run Knoxville either. Sad thing is lately the safety problems have been mainly in the wing stuff.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Originally Posted by racephoto1:
Problem is Kinser, Swindell, Schatz, and the rest of the WOO wouldn't run top less if they had to. Without them would it really be a nationals?

You want thee best of the best there, and only the wingless driving half would be there, not the winged driver half.

They wont run topless. I wonder if this is because they fear being exposed. Taking off the wing negates alot of the advantage of mega dollars. I'm not saying they cant drive a real sprintcar, I'm just saying they would get whupped.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Even with a purse similar to the nationals not many of the winged guys would run it. I'm not sure how many non wing guys would run on the big half mile. It seems a lot of local teams either do not like the half miles or don't have the resources to run them. If you ran it on a short track you would probably have tons of cars but wouldn't have enough seats to make it feasible. On the safety aspect, there are many more winged races throughout the county and they run on more big race tracks. Granted safety has come a long way since Knoxville started running wings but I think you would still have major issues if non winged cars were run on big tracks more often.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Knoxville Nationals without wings this year?

Nah, nobody wants to see a guy win from 20th.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

It would make running the alphabet possible.

I would have to double check, but it seems to me that WoO had a show somewhere on the weekend of the Mopar Million. Sammy if you recall, ran several Non-Wing Shows in the Mid 2000s including the 20 Lap special Non-Wing show he Won at Knoxville. The Mopar Million was Won by the Wild Child and Stevie Smith ran 2nd in his first attempt without a Wing! Any top notch Winged driver would do well without the Wing! Btw, the Chili Bowl has been dominated by both the Swindells!

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Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

No doubt the few that would run it would do well.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers here, but they have tried non-wing at Knoxville. I like them both but the wing cars are Like 3 1/2 seconds a lap faster, and they bring more big money teams. Steve, Sammy, and Haud, and prolly over half the drivers there can hop in a non-wing car and go good. The money difference and career longevity is why they race a wing car. As a driver myself, I have done both, and have crashed hard in both lol. The non-wing cars hurt a lot more, without a doubt. So to some degree the fans have to understand that. With all that being said, if Knoxville raceway felt that the nationals would be more of a success if they ran without the wing, then they would run without a wing. I think track conditions play into the racing more than anything, I thought last years nationals a-main was excellent. Or how bout the year Shaffer passes Schatz on last lap to win it

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Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

I think running the wings makes you a better non-wing driver. The problem is, once guys get attached to the wing most don't want to go back to running without one.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

I have no idea what winged drivers would and wouldn't run a non winged race given the chance, but I'm not sure how the WoO guys can fit it into their schedule when they already run 90 times a year. As for Oskaloosa, it works both ways. The bulk of the non wing drivers don't run the winged race there either. The Ultimate Challenge is usually the higest paying race of the year for them just like the Nationals is for the winged guys. Why risk tearing up your equipment running something you don't do reguarly before a really big race in your own discipline?

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Originally Posted by arctic monkey21:
I have no idea what winged drivers would and wouldn't run a non winged race given the chance, but I'm not sure how the WoO guys can fit it into their schedule when they already run 90 times a year. As for Oskaloosa, it works both ways. The bulk of the non wing drivers don't run the winged race there either. The Ultimate Challenge is usually the higest paying race of the year for them just like the Nationals is for the winged guys. Why risk tearing up your equipment running something you don't do reguarly before a really big race in your own discipline?

The reality of the situation is also that without the winged Knoxville Nationals, there wouldn't even be a non-winged race at Oskaloosa.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Anybody that gets on here and says Steve and Sammy would get their clocks cleaned running non-wing has absolutely no idea of their racing roots or their talent level. They've both won many, many times running non-wing and are two guys you still have to contend with if they show up----anytime and anywhere and racing anything. It's all there in the record books. Didn't Stevie Smith finish very well at the Mopar Million at Eldora and that was the first time he ever ran non-wing? Non-wing is great but it ain't rocket science. Good drivers figure it out pretty quick.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

I think you guys are missing the REAL problem here. It isn't that Knoxville wouldn't try it and it isn't that the wing guys would run without the wing. The WoO will be the ones who WOULD NOT LET IT HAPPEN PERIOD. They would schedule a race against it and penalize a million points lifetime to anyone who ran it. Or some stupid crap. They did it to the million!! Look back and see, I am 100% positive that the WoO and All Stars both scheduled against the million.

And as for wing guys doing well at the million, YES, they did. They also had more laps around that place than anyone running against the fence. I'd like to see a big event like this on a different race track. But Knoxville would also favor the wing guys because the number of laps they have there.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

KOKOMO SMACKDOWN.....end of story...:32:

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Originally Posted by Flatrightrear:
Anybody that gets on here and says Steve and Sammy would get their clocks cleaned running non-wing has absolutely no idea of their racing roots or their talent level. They've both won many, many times running non-wing and are two guys you still have to contend with if they show up----anytime and anywhere and racing anything. It's all there in the record books. Didn't Stevie Smith finish very well at the Mopar Million at Eldora and that was the first time he ever ran non-wing? Non-wing is great but it ain't rocket science. Good drivers figure it out pretty quick.

you are correct "FlatRR". I was up at Kokomo in the very early 80's for a 50 lap sprint car show. The Eldora Nationals had rained out early that day and in pulled Sammy Swindell with the Nance rig. They rolled the car out, took the wing off, changed the bars and gear, and won the thing. Chuck Amati, in Briscoe's car, led almost the entire race but, Sammy finally got by with a couple of laps to go. He had no problem running sans the wing!

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

The Knoxville Nationals (with wings) has been averaging a car count of right around 100 for the last couple of years. Last season the Kokomo Smackdown (sans wings) only had 44 cars. No way a nonwing Knoxville Nationals could draw anywhere close to 100 cars.

If they paid the same million dollar purse it would have 100 cars plus. JMO!

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Take it to the Burg

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Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

WOW 90 races! Big deal, check how many Larson has run this year. As for the purse, I still don't think if it was the same as the nationals they'd run. WoO would make sure of that.

As for wingless guys and halfs.They run Eldora, Terre Haute, The Burg(weekly deal, and it's a lot closer to a half than a 3/8's). Also a bunch of the guys run the miles with Champ dirt cars, so the argument about big tracks is weak at best.

The biggest problem is lack of cash. As everyone knows, the big tracks are harder on stuff, tires, drivelines,motors and the like. The bigger the joint, the longer your on the gas. But if the money is big enough they run.

The Knoxville deal is nice to ponder, but it ain't gonna happen.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

It would be the Nationals again.....

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Originally Posted by racephoto1:
WOW 90 races! Big deal, check how many Larson has run this year. As for the purse, I still don't think if it was the same as the nationals they'd run. WoO would make sure of that.

As for wingless guys and halfs.They run Eldora, Terre Haute, The Burg(weekly deal, and it's a lot closer to a half than a 3/8's). Also a bunch of the guys run the miles with Champ dirt cars, so the argument about big tracks is weak at best.

The biggest problem is lack of cash. As everyone knows, the big tracks are harder on stuff, tires, drivelines,motors and the like. The bigger the joint, the longer your on the gas. But if the money is big enough they run.

The Knoxville deal is nice to ponder, but it ain't gonna happen.

It's a whole lot easier to run Kyle's schedule when all you got to do is get on a airplane and not have to worry about getting the race car there plus do maintenance on it.Believe me I've done it before and it about kills you.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Done it for a long time, There was nothing like running a dirt race on Saturday night, drive to Salem, wash the car, change bars and head to the track.

As for Kyle, not all the guys do their own work, have helmet bag will travel. It just that the amount you race is no big deal, it's a job. I do mine 5 to 6 days a week, Puts that 90 times in perspective , doesn't it.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Originally Posted by racephoto1:
Done it for a long time, There was nothing like running a dirt race on Saturday night, drive to Salem, wash the car, change bars and head to the track.

As for Kyle, not all the guys do their own work, have helmet bag will travel. It just that the amount you race is no big deal, it's a job. I do mine 5 to 6 days a week, Puts that 90 times in perspective , doesn't it.

It's a job alright,full of 16 to 20 hour days 7 days a week when you're traveling and racing full time for a living,not seeing home for month's at a time,so I feel what Kyle did versus someone who has to haul the race car everywhere plus work on it and race it doesn't even compare.And I'm talking about racing all over the country,not just a couple of states in close proximity.We used to run the eqivolent of Sprint week 4 or 5 races everyweek for months on end and drove a total of 62 thousand miles one season,now if you would've used Frankie Kerr as your example,I'd be in total agreement with you.You say you do your job 5 to 6 days a week,now let me ask you this,do you work double shifts everyday?Put's that 90 times in perspective,doesn't it.

Damn home run Terry!!

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Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

If the nationals decided to go wingless, no matter what the purse, it would HAVE to be WoO sanctioned cause if not, they will find a way to screw the guys over that ran it. and im not even sure knoxville is WoO sanctioned now....its been, then not been....and that part doesnt interest me anyway.
now.....during an interview with kinser just before the mopar million, he was asked if he was gonna run.....his response was, with a smile, "i think we have a race that night".....does sponsorship play into this? if a sponsor puts up the money and wants their driver to win the WoO championship and not race anything but WoO shows.....and knoxville was non winged and non sanctioned.....the driver would be forced to sit and watch.....so i think, at least for a few, its a sponsorship issue as to why they wont run anything but WoO shows.
i agree with a previous post.....the smackdown is shaping up to be the non wing nationals.....and im good wit dat

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Originally Posted by CRA91:
It's a whole lot easier to run Kyle's schedule when all you got to do is get on a airplane and not have to worry about getting the race car there plus do maintenance on it.Believe me I've done it before and it about kills you.

No different than when LeLand Flew in For You & Your Dad, or Reids #6 or Fred and Sam Bailey,or Gurney Racing for NARC Points & Flying in to race Loius Seymor in USAC of Course You cant Work on the Car & race Both Series, so not sure the implications "Easier for Kyle"

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Originally Posted by cmp:
No different than when LeLand Flew in For You & Your Dad, or Reids #6 or Fred and Sam Bailey,or Gurney Racing for NARC Points & Flying in to race Loius Seymor in USAC of Course You cant Work on the Car & race Both Series, so not sure the implications "Easier for Kyle"

Big difference,yes Lealand would fly back to the mid-west and meet us there,but once there he traveled with us and helped work on the race car everyday and didn't sleep till noon while we were busting our a$$.:15: Some of these kids racing today could learn awhole lot from that man!

Just like when him and Hewitt flipped at Eldora,he was out in the parking lot with us the next day helping to build a new car,do think that Kyle was down at Hoffmans Helping them to build a new car after his crash at Eldora? Here again there is no comparison.
I'm now done with this pissing match!

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Let's see, I work nine to 5 in Indy, hop in my car, drive to Bloomington, get there by 6:15. Leave Bloomington midnight. Then drive over night to Springfield ,Illinois. Go to sleep at 4, get up at 6;30. Shoot Springfield, leave there at 3. Drive straight through to the Burg, get there at 8. Shoot till 11. Get home at about 1.

On Sunday , get up at 9,( sorry, I slept in a little), do my website. Leave for Kokomo, get there at 5, shoot till around 10,( lucky for me , Kokomo bangs their shows out) Get home about 11;30. Work for the papers I work for until about 1 am. Get up at 6 Monday morning to go back to the 9 to 5. Been doing this as long as I can remember.

Also, if my brother shows up at the track, I toss in a hand on the car.

A racers life isn't any different then mine. They're not gods, just guys who pick a different line of work for a job. No , I never drove one, no desire. Been working on them since 1977. I can remember 52 shows one year, just with USAC. That doesn't include the local stuff I also did.

Like I said to me , it's just a job, NO BIG DEAL.

Re: Knoxville Nationals WITHOUT wings?
 

Originally Posted by racephoto1:
Let's see, I work nine to 5 in Indy, hop in my car, drive to Bloomington, get there by 6:15. Leave Bloomington midnight. Then drive over night to Springfield ,Illinois. Go to sleep at 4, get up at 6;30. Shoot Springfield, leave there at 3. Drive straight through to the Burg, get there at 8. Shoot till 11. Get home at about 1.

On Sunday , get up at 9,( sorry, I slept in a little), do my website. Leave for Kokomo, get there at 5, shoot till around 10,( lucky for me , Kokomo bangs their shows out) Get home about 11;30. Work for the papers I work for until about 1 am. Get up at 6 Monday morning to go back to the 9 to 5. Been doing this as long as I can remember.

Also, if my brother shows up at the track, I toss in a hand on the car.

A racers life isn't any different then mine. They're not gods, just guys who pick a different line of work for a job. No , I never drove one, no desire. Been working on them since 1977. I can remember 52 shows one year, just with USAC. That doesn't include the local stuff I also did.

Like I said to me , it's just a job, NO BIG DEAL.

Well sir,I commend you then on all your hard work and I'm sorry if you feel like I called you out.
You know as well as I do that there are people who come on these boards and talk smack about things that they have no idea of the time and effort it takes to race,obviously you are not one of them and I now know that and next time I will respond accordingly.
And by no means do I think that I'm a god for doing what I do,quite the contrary,I feel very fortunate to have been able to have a career for the past 33yrs doing what I love and a lot of people are not that lucky to love their job.

Have a nice evening:32: