Affordable Pavement Midget Rules
 

Affordable Pavement Midget Racing Rules

1. Spirit and Intent of Rules
The spirit and intent of these rules is to provide for a cost effective form of Pavement Midget Racing utilizing chassis and designs derived from Dirt Midget Racing. Any attempt to circumvent the spirit and intent of these rules, as determined by the Chief Steward, will result in disqualification. The main components which will be allowed to be changed or added from dirt to pavement include; wheels, front axle, front brakes, shocks, springs, radius rod mounting location, mounting location of rear arms on bird cages, rear panhard bar. All other additions or subtractions must be pre-approved.

2. Dimensions and Weight
a. The minimum wheel base is required to be at least 71 inches and no more than 72 inches.
b. The overall maximum tread width is 65 inches.
c. The maximum engine setback is 34 inches as measured from the front of the motor plate, at the height of the centerline of the torque ball housing, to the center of the rear axle at its farthest point.
d. The maximum rear offset is six (6) inches as measured from the center of the rear end to the inside of the rear wheels.
e. The minimum weight of car with driver is 1,100 (lbs) pounds.
f. Ballast must be placed between the front axle and rear axle no higher than mid rails at the cockpit. Ballast must be fastened to the chassis or motor plate with a minimum of four (4) Grade 8 bolts. All bolts holding ballast without a nylon lock nut must be safety wired.

3. Car Construction
a. Chassis must be constructed so as both right and left bottom frame rails remain on the same plane from the center of the front axle to the center of the rear axle. (No raised rails between axles.)
b. Engine offset is limited to left of chassis centerline. Engine may be offset a maximum one (1) inch (two inches overall) from the chassis centerline.
c. Driver must be seated behind the engine and on the centerline of the chassis. No offset or angle mounted seats are permitted.
d. Z-link type rear suspension having one radius rod and one torsion arm per side is required. Coil over or torsion bar suspension may be used. Rear coil overs must attach to the rear torsion arms. Either a jacob’s ladder (watts link) or a panhard bar is permitted.
e. Anti-roll bars will not be permitted.
f. Where applicable, front and rear torsion bars must be perpendicular to the driveshaft.
g. No pushrod rocker arm style front suspension allowed. Coil over or torsion bar front suspension is required.
h. All cars must be left hand steer. No rack and pinion steering allowed.
i. No aerodynamic devices of any kind. What constitutes an aerodynamic device is at the sole discretion of the Director of Competition and/or Chief Steward.

Let the roasting begin..........The one thing I have always been told is don't complain if you can't offer a solution. The engine situation in Badger has brought down engine costs significantly, and now I wanted to share my ideas for pavement Midget racing.

Re: Affordable Pavement Midget Rules
 

I like. It is a starting place. Anxious to hear what others have to say. I hope it is not too late. Who would be willing to step out of the box and move this along?

Re: Affordable Pavement Midget Rules
 

Affordable and racing? Those 2 words don't go together when taking about racing. MONEY always wins the race. Dirt Cars are dirt cars Pavement cars are pavement cars. ARDC ran both for many years and you couldn't change cars the same car had to be used. With that said it was a disaster all the times they drove pavement.

The chassis for dirt cars are not conducive to pavement and it makes for VERY BAD RACING. A lot of accidents and flips which again equates to money and not Affordable

Re: Affordable Pavement Midget Rules
 

I disagree with virtually everything you said. Midget racing used the same cars on both dirt and pavement for many more years than they used separate cars for each (clear into the early 90s). The argument could be made that the racing was better during those years.

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If it was as you say good racing then Why did the Chassis Mfgs come out with 2 Chassis 1 for Dirt and 1 for pavement? So I think your idea of it was good racing back then is Null and Void at this point. I experienced it personally and Dirt Chassis on Pavement was a disaster but that was all there was for Midgets back then

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I think Ray3 is making the combo car competitive again on pavement by not having to compete with the special pavement chassis. I would like to see some sanction body pick up on this idea and make it work. There was a time when the same car was used on dirt and pavement with minor changes such as what Ray3 has suggested. Owners would run pavement Friday night. Make the changes and run dirt on Saturday with the same chassis.

Nodoors trolling again or just being a contrarian purely for its own sake. On earlier post saw almost no problem changing wing to non-wing.

If I'm reading the Rules correctly, you can only run a 71" or 72" wheelbase car.

We were able to take a Twister dirt midget and make it not only competitive but actual faster than a Beast Pavement midget cars running with the Illini Racing Series. So Yes, you can totally do this and I have proof, about a dozen feature wins to back up my statement. The main differences are placement of the motor and the suspension pickup points are raised to correct for the suspension geometry at the correct ride height. It's all creating and policing the rules. Illini midgets use a D2 based rule package and a harder compound tire to put the emphasis on driving and handling versus HP.
Do I think pavement cars have an design advantage with weight placement? Yes i do, can you create a rules package to equalize the two? You bet ya.

The first 2.4L OEM based Midget Club that successfully figures out an rule package to equate a dirt car to a pavement car "Makes pavement midget racing great again!" But there is going to have to be some left side and front weight, ride height rules to equate the two chassis, so it's simple enough for dirt guy to take a chance on trying it.

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Why? I think that midget racing on pavement is like midget racing on big tracks. A thing of the past. Lets enjoy the rebirth of midget racing on dirt. Lets enjoy having national and D2 midget groups. Lets not try to recreate the past that we will never get. :deadhorse:

Sounds like 2015-16 when there were people who didn't think the Badger deal would work.

I have an Ellis dirt midget that won alot of races against some of the top beast pavement cars in the country, so a dirt can can be fast and win on pavement....

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Not exactly. The rule is stating that you must be at least 71" wheelbase and no more than 72". So you can be 71 1/4", 71 1/2" or whatever as long as you are no less than 71" and no more than 72". I find it ridiculous that Midget racing has a 10" difference from the min to the max wheelbase (most groups say 66" to 76" which is nuts).

Re: Affordable Pavement Midget Rules
 

This was "affordable midget racing" before it was "cool" (& long before theoretical threads were started on the internet)...

https://illinimidgets.com/

The 2020 schedule is out (10 races - South Bend, Grundy, Rockford - all pavement)

...they are on a race tire these days...most cars are 2.4L...I imagine some of the cars ran dirt before...

Re: Affordable Pavement Midget Rules
 

First the Illini Series is getting 6 cars on their best day. Second, the Illini Series has always wanted to have a different rule book for each competitor. Once you go faster than their favorite car they go out of their way to write a new rule (weight, restrictors, offsets, etc etc) intended entirely to penalize a guy for winning. And they do it race to race. That's not racing in my opinion. If you want to beat a guy beat him on the track not with the rule book. If you want to change rules do it during the offseason and apply them equally to everyone.

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"Affordable" midget racing doesn't pay every competitor $150 no matter where you finish

Running with the Illini series is all about getting a participation trophy...

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Listen Bud Dirt Midget Chassis wer made to transfer weight to the Right Rear, Pavement Chassis are made to transfer weight to the Left Front. Don't give me this Horseshit that you even can contemplate what I am saying My god you are a real Winner and not in a good way

Re: Affordable Pavement Midget Rules
 

Dial back the harsh,continue on with the discussion

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If people want to run Midgets on pavement, more power to them, but it doesn't really interest me....

I understand what you’re saying and for the most part agree.... but you should see them at Winchester.

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The combo car idea was successful back in the day and honestly could be successful again with the right combination

I think many of us ( myself included ) have over-analyzed this to the point of exhaustion when honestly the answer is very simple.

STAY OFF THE BIG TRACKS! and no need to worry about the HP / motor garbage

We are :deadhorse: talking about the expense of motors / etc. - this will never go away. Someone will always have more HP than the next guy. Someone will always have more $ and outspend the next guy. Someone will always be whining rather than working on their car and setup.

Go race at a small track, Dirt or Pavement and 99% of these problems will go away on their own

I assure you that it's most likely easier to find a smaller race track than to convince a bunch of racers to convert motor programs or try and institute restrictions, gear ratios, left side weight rules, hard tires and god forbid the club that changes the rules every dang week b/c someone actually wins more than once.

Just my 2 cents -

Re: Affordable Pavement Midget Rules
 

Salem also

Yes I’d imagine but I’ve never gotten to see them there.

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6 cars on a bad day. 12 cars on a good day.

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1/4 mile or less and flat no bank would work.

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Yea, on second thought my comment was pretty negative. I'm not a pavement fan, but if I was near one of those tracks that were mentioned, I'd check it out....:23:

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@ racebum
I agree 100%, midgets don't belong on alot of the Highspeed tracks they go to.

I'll admit first hand that it's cool and I've been there done that with racing midgets @ Winchester, Copper World, IRP/ ORP etc. but in efforts to contribute to this conversation and try to "fix the problem" - A simple solution keep the midgets on short tracks it'll fix alot of these problems.

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If you are going to race them at a high level, you are going to have purpose built pavement cars. If you have purpose built pavement cars, every conversion car will be battling for best in class. We can't unlearn technology. If you have to "dummy" down the rules so much that conversion cars are competitive what are you really accomplishing?

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Not true...at least last I knew...paid more to win & finish 2nd (at least).

In-fact I have a pay stub I gotta find for a feature we won that paid a good amount over $150...& later that year, we lead 4-5 laps before I ran the rear brake caliper off the car, in a $1000 to win special...

Come watch one of the shows they put on at Rockford Speedway (at least - I'm sure the South Bend races and Grundy thru the years have been great, but I admit I haven't watched other than at Rockford). The starts are always crazy & almost every race, it seems, the top 3/4/5 battle it out like the race is paying $10,000 to win (I think only 3 midget races in this country - of any kind - pay that much to win anyway...) - videos available throughout the www platforms. Take a look if you have time.

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Not true about the car count. I know multiple races last year had car counts higher than that.

...and I'd love to have found ANY race series where rules never changed, everyone was treated the same all the time, certain people didn't get to bring up ideas in meetings but others were scoffed at, when someone brings something outside the rule book they don't get to keep running it just because they have it...and on and on...everything you listed is like an industry standard across all racing...how many times did NASCAR "back in the day" make spoiler, etc adjustments (DURING THE SEASON) as certain manufacturers had an advantage or didn't?

(PS - my inbox is still full so don't bother sending any private messages...)

Pavement midget racing is dead, is going to stay dead, and there isn’t much going to change that without the National series support. We can talk about changing the motors, cars, or whatever but at the end of the day the horse has been left out to pasture. The problem is if you start changing stuff to fit your idea then the ten guys with pavement cars sitting in the corner get mad. It’s a lose lose deal either way and needs to stay that way for the current racing world. No promoters going to put their balls on the line to promote a pavement midget race that pays enough to get cars out of barns. The little 500 can be attributed to saving pavement sprint cars because when times got rough it didn’t go away now slowly we are seeing more pavement sprint car races. What big race is left for pavement midgets? Until someone gets off there wallet and decides to pay some money to have pavement midgets and preferably a few races they won’t come back.

Ps. Pavement midgets were what I grew up around and consider to be some of my favorite racing but it is what it is.

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I disagree. There is no dummying down happening with what I proposed. What I have done is more clearly define what a Midget is. In fact, competitors by purchasing dirt cars and abandoning pavement have defined what a Midget is. The problem is, I don't think people chose to abandon pavement racing because they disliked pavement racing. They abandoned it because of cost. Having to have two separate cars, allowing testing, tire costs, engine costs and carbon fiber and titanium made it less viable to the team owners.

Therefore it is the rule book which caused pavement racing to become less attractive over time. An example is the wheelbase rules. There is no reason a rule book should have a 10" difference from min to max on wheelbase. That is absolutely nuts and is one of the biggest contributors to the need for both a pavement and dirt car. Actually, you could argue with that wide a gap on wheelbase you need a short track car, long track car and indoor car for pavement!! I wouldn't necessarily call wheelbase some extreme technology gain either. Also, weight is another factor. Increase the weight and you make ti and carbon fiber less of an advantage. So much less that some teams will abandon it because the ROI becomes too low and they can then win without it.

Also, the Z-link type suspension is already used on the Beast pavement cars most people were running. So thats not a major change. The only other major change is the engine set back and no offset engines to the right. Not big technological advancements but changes that are necessary to get this thing back under control and make dirt cars relevant on pavement.

You asked what is being accomplished. I think it is clear, you open up pavement racing to virtually every dirt Midget in the country. That is a huge deal. Access to ACTIVE cars is the way you bring pavement Midget racing back. Nothing else is going to revive it.

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But you are not bringing back pavement midget racing. Pavement midget race cars were incredibly fast and incredibly specialized built cars, not the conversion cars that you are campaigning for.

The fact that there is not a healthy pavement midget series shows that car owners could not afford them and track promoters would not accept the risk/reward to run them.

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Midget racers are their own worst enemies, as this thread shows

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I tried to help the new promoter at Mount Lawn with getting the guys from Montpelliar to run at Mount Lawn, everyone I talked to about it was negative and wanted nothing to do with it with the exception of one guy