Different winners in USAC
 

Thomas Jr.,Windom,Bacon,and Courtney.Does anyone else win in USAC sprint cars.🤣It seems if you don’t qualify in top six forget about it.If these guys are in top six forget about it.It is becoming rather predictable.Maybe time for a format change.Opinions on alternatives and getting your time back if you transfer through semi.Never understood that one.

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

Not being sarcastic, But what format changes the best not finishing up front?

I got some ideas for a better overall show and more inclusive to racers Joining rather than staying away. But the racers, crew chiefs and equipment are the best. Tough to beat em.

It just seems Charles that this season these four are nearly unbeatable.Qualifying is everything in USAC,maybe something to reduce that importance.Not directed specifically at these guys,but something to make overall show better.

Well they have lost some good car owners the last two years which has hurt.
As far as the format goes, they used to invert 8 in heat races. CRA used to invert 8 in the feature and Badger midgets inverted 10. That made for great racing.

The number of different winners was double digits last year. I will bet you we will have double digits this year.

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

There are several things I don't like about the USAC format, And Ironically, some of those same things I like.
I like Single Car Qualifying. However I don't like that Fred qualifies third fastest. doesn't transfer but transfers from B and still starts ahead of Joe, who qualified thirteenth but won his heat.

My fix to this, Single car qualifying against your heat, Invert top six.
(Picked by Draw) Top two to Pole dash. 3-5 to b 6-10 to C.
Feature lined up by finish of pole dash and the rest by finish of there heat-Consi.

I think the non adjusters is a epic fail, But showcases the crew chief. If your off, you can't get better.. As much as I was against the adjusters Back when they started becoming popular) Getting rid of them after everyone already has them. was just dumb.

I think every track has a handful of racers that can race up front with them. The problem is they can't go rip a lap half a second faster in qualifying like the guys who do it every race in top equipment so they're starting in back with little chance of getting to the front.

It's a good show and one of the hardest to win at. However without a car count over 28 it really isn't much better than a local show as far as amount of racing and how hard they race. In fact a local show heat finish is mparative. whereas USAC if your running third and had a top five qualifyng speed, what's your incentive to get second or win? I've seen it dozens of times where They knew they were locked and didn't even try to get another spot.

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

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Chuck,you format you talk about is how the All Stars do it.The only exception is a 4 car invert in the heats.They seem to have good races every time I see them.Getting ready to walk out the door to see the All Stars at the Field.Happy Fathers day everyone.

Maybe participation trophies would help you feel better about USAC? Qualifying is everything in USAC that's the point. There is nothing more pure than single car qualifying. This is where all the pressure is. Will a driver be able to conquer it? Yes track conditions change and bad draws do have some affect but overall it evens out. Almost always a good guy with a late draw will go to the top of the board. Look the cream always rises to the top with this format. If you put Bacon, KT, Sunshine at the tail they will still run through the field and end up at the front. Darland, Bacon, and Ballou are not traditionally strong qualifiers and yet they are racers and get there cars up front. So everything is fine here folks. If you are on your game your car will end up at the front by the end of the night no matter where you start.

Everyone seems to be on same page here.Is it because it is Father’s day😂Really,the top six thing is not a deal breaker,but any racing program where the top whatever transfers out of the semi do not start in that order of finish in back is flawed.Can anyone explain any reason for this,regardless of how far fetched.

JDK,while I detest participation trophies and admire your fondness for usac format,I must disagree with your assertion about mentioned drivers starting in back.In 30 lap feature without the help of several yellows these guys would gain many positions,but win ,no.

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I think USAC has the best format of any group or track. Sometimes guys are just good or others have trouble.

Maybe we could put restrictor plates on them, and have three 10 lap stages in the A. 😂

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

DK, I was indeed talking about the outlaw format without the double file restarts. You don't finish top two in the heat, you don't get top six or eight start in the feature.

It also provides another race. for the top three or four rows. This would basically force a person in third to race for second or he's getting hurt in feature start position. Sure the race for the transfer is usually very exciting to watch. But when there isn't enough for a consi. the heat races don't even matter. Your going to get your qualifying spot for the feature so why race in the heat?

Also noticed at Williams Grove, USAC running 8 lap heats while their normal show ran 10

I said it earlier the best are going to get up front anyway, would just like to see it be more possible for locals to compete or at least want to compete with them.

I think it was Tim Clauson who said every format is a game. If you have the talent, the one who plays the game the best, wins.

I’ve only missed a couple USAC races in the last 10-12 years, and I don’t think I remember anyone actually watching the USAC heat races and saying they weren’t racing hard enough.

The level it takes to win right now is insanely high. Appreciate it.

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

"But when there isn't enough for a consi. the heat races don't even matter.'.... exactly. Thats what bugs me too.

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"Also noticed at Williams Grove, USAC running 8 lap heats while their normal show ran 10"
USAC rules state that for tracks over 3/8s, they run 8 lap heats

I guess the other 20 cars had best ramp up their programs to the level of these guys.

Maybe you could be a significant sponsor and help one of these teams to that level. What say?

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

Race format - group qualifying, split into 4 heat races. Top 5 in each group are inverted for the heats.

Heats will be 10-12 laps depending on track size (12 laps for 1/3 mile or smaller, 10 laps for 3/8 mile or larger), with the top 4 finishers transferring to the A-Main.

Top 2 finishers in each heat get their qualifying time back, so the front 4 rows of the A will be rewarded for a fast qualifying time and racing into the top 2 of their heat. No BS redraw. No dash - the extra laps on equipment and on the track are unnecessary.

Finishers in positions 3 and 4 of the heats (or all positions outside the top 2 if the car count is low and all cars transfer) will lineup by their finishing order in rows 5-8 of the A, and will not get their time back. This will force fast qualifiers to race in the heats and reward those that move up compared to those that just try to transfer.

If there are enough cars for a B-Main, it will be 12 laps and transfer the top 4. Transfers will lineup in the last 2 rows of the feature by their B-Main ffinishing order. Any provisionals will start behind them.

If there is a large car count, run 2 B-Mains with finishers 5-10 from heats/groups 1 and 2 in B-Main 1, and finishers 5-10 from heats/groups 3 and 4 in B-Main 2. Take the top 2 out of each.

I am fan of sport,not association or entity entrusted to keep it healthy and keep car counts up..Not my job,I pay my money when I buy ticket.The prior post is correct however,when not enough cars for semi,no urgency for heat race performance.

No urgency for heat races????
They're racers there is always urgency no matter what is at stake!!

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

Could be worse, were into the mx nationals and for whatever reason there always seems to be one guy that's faster then everyone else. This year its Eli Tomac, if he gets a good start forget it he's gone. If he gets a bad start you get to see him cut thru the pack and its a good race till he takes the lead. In mx theres no solution we all start even up forty across, with sprintcars it is possible to start the fast guys back in the pack.

Honestly, my biggest gripe is the B main transfers getting their time back. That's it. I love single car qualifying. Drawing and group qualifying is not my cup of tea. I get it, just don't like it. Single car TT are a thing of beauty and should always exist at the top forms of racing.

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Mine also, our organization snuck that in one season, till all the fillers figured it out, that's a bunch of hooie, that automatically makes the B a non race, except for a few, then you're just more or less wasting the effort, I always preferred one at a time qualifying, it gave me one more chance at the track, and the changes I had made, to see if I needed something else. Put me in the hat with the qualifiers, deciding the field. Bob

Do we ever get tired of tinkering from the stands? I have to all 4 of the first nights of Eastern Storm. My only criticism is the car count. No not 50, but at least 28 for a full program. I doubt this will change for long tow distances from Indiana and half mile tracks. USAC has hitched it's wagon to Indiana regional racers, nothing against them but they are not going to tow long distances and run half miles. A mixed blessing!

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Could the reasoning be that Indiana and west coast are about only places that are wingless?

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I was thinking more along the lines of Push to Pass buttons and wave arounds.

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

and ballou

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

Maybe I have it wrong, but I thought if you came through the B you could start no better than 7.

Count me in with Funk. Used to be if you transferred through the B you got your time back so if you were 6th fast, missed it in your heat you could still get the pole. A number of years ago they changed it to where if you got in via semi best you could start was 7th. The way I understand it, let's say the rest of the top 6 made it through their heats and so did the 7th, so now 7th starts on pole and 6th who came out of the consi starts 7th. I might be wrong but that's what I was thinking

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

You are correct Brent on the transfers. I can remember when Poncho won too much and Tommy B. won all the time for a record in a season. Usac has a great bunch of traveling drivers now. Only dirt but hey I miss the old days of pavement being part of the championship. They are running big tracks in PA that's not for everyone these days. I'm looking to go out east next year for this tour.

And not to disagree with Chuck, but "epic failure" is more like making silver crown cars that are designed to run on mile and a half tracks, I'd say the jury is still out on banning cockpit adjustable shocks

My thoughts. I feel if you go through the B main you should start behind ALL the heat race transfers. And not to beat a dead horse on the adjustable shocks, while I agree it may not be an "epic fail", it is an empty gesture. Supposed to even the playing field and cut costs, but every local guy around has already got adjusters. That expense was already expended long ago. Also, it puts more emphasis on who the better crew chiefs are. Whether they're driver/crew chiefs or hired guns a smart crew chief will help you more than ever right now. So banning the adjusters was just an unecessary move, in my opinion only.

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I am ok with getting rid of cockpit adjustable shocks. When everyone gets good at turning knobs, there would be less passing.

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Kinda like the Larry, Garry,Bigelow,Vogler day's. Car owners money drivers talent,still the same game.

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I surely remember USAC being dominated by a couple drivers and only like five following the whole tour. Compared to that, today is awesome with several drivers who could win on any given night

Maybe true, but everyone still runs them at local shows so I just think it's an irrelevant rule. And I've seen plenty of good local shows. And USACs other divisions still run them. Hasn't seemed to hurt their on track product. Just my opinion, nothing more.

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I have mixed feelings about this. Sometimes the track just stays way too narrow in the heat, and you really get punished for qualifying well. I don't know if they do it today, but back in 2011, the King of the West gave the top 2 in the B their times back, plus an extra $50 for winning the B. I like that because it kept you from riding around in your transfer spot, but you weren't totally hosed if you qualified well but missed transferring in the heat.

Re: Different winners in USAC
 

USAC's sprint car car counts are down this year. Local tracks and BOSS seem to be doing just fine.

MSCS = -5 cars on average over this time last year
USAC = -5 cars on average over this time last year

I see a trend! See you at the races!

Going back to the OT, my quick search through twitter indicates USAC National Sprint cars have had 8 different winners in 15 events ran so far. KTJ, Windom, Bacon Courtney, Stockon, Darland, (listed S. Cottle in error), and now Ballou.

OP is correct in that the 4 mentioned have an abundance of podiums; however, there’s still been 11 different drivers finish top 3 and that doesn’t include Grant or Coons jr (yet...)

Might not last but so far a new winner average of every two shows and a new podium finisher almost each race seems pretty diverse to me... and who on here would be surprised if Grant, Leary, Boespflug, TMez, or Coons, got a win to keep that average going? Not me.

Are the 4 drivers mentioned being allowed to race under different rules? If not then everyone else needs to figure out a way to get faster!!