Oil problem Gearte Midget
 

We have a problem with the dry sump tank losing most of the oil during the race. I have never had an issue with any of the Sprint Cars I've had, but admit this is the first Midget Engine I've worked on. The engine ends up with 5 1/2 quarts in the pan and only like 2 in the tank. It acts like it's not scavaging enough out of the Engine. The pump, lines, tank are all new. There is no filters or blockage in the lines. It has (2) -12 lines from the pan to the pump and 1 -16 line back to the tank. We spoke to several competitors with the same type Engine and they said it's normal, really? I believe there will be a point where the Engine will starve for oil and do damage. I have attempted to call Gearte but never get an answer or call back. A local Engine builder told me to run (2) -12 lines back to the tank instead of 1 -16. Idk, but, I don't think this is normal and the Engine was built for one -16 back to the tank so, I'm at a loss. Any input would be appreciated.

Call Rick at Haisley Machine 765-948-3164
He worked for Gaerte until the closed.

Re: Oil problem Gearte Midget
 

Check the pan. It is normal to have SOME oil in the pan. But NOT 5 quarts. This sounds like you are pulling air out of the engine instead of oil. So, it sounds like there is a fault in the pick ups like a possible crack or break between the bottom of the pickups and the port outside the pan for the hoses taking the oil to the pump. Another weird possibility is that the return lines could collapse while the engine is running and cause the problem. How is the system venting? The tank is getting oil and air out of the engine. If there is a problem with that venting; the oil can't come out of the engine because it is being blocked. Try taking the cap off of the tank while the engine is idling. Crack the throttle a couple of times with you hand covering the tank. if you feel a lot of air coming out or there is suction; you are on your way to fixing it. There shouldn't be any suction or pressure at the tank.

Or, could be a flap on an oil line, slowing the flow one way, or clearances out of spec, internal galleries leak, and gear pumps are not infallible either, how long does it take for this condition to happen, just throwing out stuff to see if any thing sticks, I've had this before, you just have to ck all possibilities.or, it could be plumbed wrong, and can't keep up, should be a wide and a narrow gear in the pump, wide for volume, narrow for pressure 😉.

Venting seems fine as it vents nice off the tank. Since the hoses are all new I don't think they are sucking shut. It should be plumbed correctly as it came from the dyno in the same configuration.

I will check the oil pan for possible suction issues from the pick ups, thanks.

Re: Oil problem Gearte Midget
 

Did it do it on the Dyno???????????

Good question. Any foam in the oil. Nothing easy is it. Almost sounds like the pump is too slow, does it drive off the crank, or a cam.
Again, did it do it on the dyno? Something to question.

Keep us informed on what you find learning everyday

Keep us informed leaning something everyday

The amount of the time it was on the dyno it didn't show any concerns, however I don't think the dyno time was equivalent to 25 laps which is when we find the loss of oil.

Pickup location, baffle situation in pan?

So, that was to be my next question, didn't notice anything about the oil pressure, no gauge hysterics, but still not pumping back to the tank, or it would seem that way, not doing as it should. I know it will be difficult, but can you remove the pump, leave the hoses hooked up, and remove the drain plug, and run the pump with a drill, and see how long before it stops running out of the drain, it should be able to almost keep it from running out the drain, hard to think and tap at the same time, you might have to set it off kilter if the drain is really low on the bottom.

On 2nd thought, you could do it by not draining it out, but sticking the oil bag say every minute or so, mark it at the start and watch how much it changes 😀

It drives off the cam and the oil isn't foamy at all. Didn't seem to do it on the dyno.

Thanks, will give this a try.

Here's what I was thinking, if you're pump had been set up for a crank drive, and some how got on your engine, running at half speed again, it would not be able to keep up, you know the old saying, if it's possible, it'll happen to me

Another thought, does your tank have a vent that is through the cap, or elsewhere via a hose, check either, on the return side, it takes very little to effect the oil returning, remember the difference in the gear widths, and they may not have been hooked up on the dyno!

The more you think about it, the easier it becomes, my motto has always been, "give a lazy man a hard job, and he'll find an easy way to do it ".

The general consensus is it appears to be a pump problem. Too much pressure, not enough suction. 80 lbs. Oil pressure at idle seems a bit high. It has good venting, new lines, plumbed correctly but ultimately cannot scavage enough oil out the pan during a whole race night. So, after reading all the feedback and a great conversation I had with Tim who PM'd me it seems like it boils down to the pump or a pickup problem in the pan. I also failed to mention in my original post that the Oil Filter, although always just hand tight when installed is nearly impossible to get off, like its sucked fast. So, a call to Barnes today to pick their brains is where I'm at today. Thanks for all the feedback.

Re: Oil problem Gearte Midget
 

I tried that when managing a manufacturing operation. It didn't work.:D
Useless is useless!!

I had a good dose of that myself, I was in charge of 88 test cells with dynos, and about half that number of people, on 3 shifts, it only takes 1 bad 🍎, and every thing is spoiled.

Ph, an easy way to ck the hoses, just the return and pressure is to just turn them end for end and see if anything changes

Re: Oil problem Gearte Midget
 

There is no suction at the oil filter. Remember to lube the gasket and don't over tighten at installation. Then most guys use a hose clamp to assure it can't come off or loosen. There is no sense in running the pumps with the pan plug out. There is always oil available to leak out there because the pickups only start removing oil when they are submerged. Otherwise they will take the path of least resistance and just pull air. Talk to Barnes. They are the experts. But these engines vibrate like crazy and cracks in the pan have been found are common. There must be a vacuum leak between the bottom of the pickups and the pump. So a close inspection of the hoses from the pump to the pan could find something (like a loose or defective hose our fitting. look in the ports of the pump and make certain that the rotors are not scarred from a previous failure. 80# at idle is also common on a Gaerte.l. Remember you have one section putting oil in. But two sections coming out. You don't have a supply problem. 100% of the problem is in the return. If the suction sections of the pump are good. Then you have a leak somewhere between the bottom of the pickups in the pan and the pump. Or a restriction between the pump and the tank. Simple as that.

Any new info on this issue 🤔