Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Yep......that number 44 has brought me a lot of luck in a lot of classes for a lot of years!!! A direvitive of 144k (novice) that I was assigned a number from AMA when I flat tracked. Now that was racing!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil

OK I'm :39: what kind of bike did you race? Do you walk with a limp?

Honest Dad Himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil

Sometime back in one of these threads you said something about not wanting to slow our cars down and be slower than the little 600cc sidewinders. They are as fast and as squirley as they are because of their lack of weight and wheelbase.

You also said you raced AMA flat track in your day. Back in the late 60's and early 70's we had a 1/2 trotter track in Louisville. They covered it with Limestone for the horses. Once a year the AMA would bring a race to town. I can remember watching the pro's like Lawwill, Nixon,Markel, and Mann race. It was like watching a Ballet or Champ cars on the dirt at Do Quoin. The only way to explain it was beautiful, a little boring but amazing to watch.

When the AMA amateurs came out to race it was more like football. Those guys had something to prove and I think put on as good or perhaps a better race than the pro's. It wasn't the speed that made their race, it was the determination of the riders that showed through and made their races great and a lot more interesting than the Pro's.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I ran Louisville a couple of times. That track surface was really hard on leading surfaces like fork tubes, number plates, helmet shields, leathers.......everything. But it was a blast. Feet up, fork lock slides, WFO. You just didn't want to get caught it someone's roost. Slow your a$$ down big time. I loved the half miles and miles. Short track was fun but more like a mini-war every time you went out on the track. Mainly ran Yamaha's since a local shop helped me out. Got to run another guy's Harley a few times. Novices and Juniors were all the "hungry" guys trying to get up to the Expert class. Kill or be killed attitudes for us hungry guys. Whatever it took. Never had very many laps to dial one in or prove yourself. Total chaos from green to checker. Loved it. I quit racing about the time they started putting brakes on the flat track bikes. Family coming and needed to be responsible anyway and quit running all over the United States. Hated the brakes. Messed up the racing in my opinion. Saw more guys hurt due to brakes than without. Other than having a family.......If I hadn't got old and fat.........I would still be flat tracking. Thought about some vintage racing but there isn't enough around here to do it. I still have my short track bike setting in my shop. Still got my hot shoe too. And nope........no limp but I got banged up plenty of times over my flat track career. Due to racing flat track bikes, I usually have a nice warm fuzzy feeling setting inside a caged race car all strapped in.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil I have been told it was really hard on the face as well. But that big white roster tail was sure impressive.

Let me see now 2015 take away 1970 equals 45. If you was racing bikes at 20 that would make you ??.

Wow is your Race Car equipped with an Oxygen tank.>>> Must be all that climbing around over and below them machines that kept you in shape.:9::9:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Do the math all you want............I'm still 64. With a mind of 10 year old.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

And can still drive too I can attest to that!!!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Your assesment of the oil problem is pretty much spot on, something a lot of fellows haven't stumbled on to yet, sounds like. Back in the late 60's, Cummins Diesel had just ventured into the V series of engines, and were experiencing some oil related problems, so we bought a large tilt table, about 8' square, and about 6' off the floor, and it also swiveled, which allowed me to not only tilt the engine, but tip it at all angles. I took oil pans, valve covers, gear covers, anything I could put a window in, and ran engines on this stand for over a year, and you can't imagine what goes on inside an engine. At some speeds, everything was as it should be, but increase it even a little bit, and the rear gear train would pick up oil, and suddenly the overhead was full of oil, and the oil pan was dangerously low, then it would stabilize, then it would just be a mist, all the oil was in suspension. To make it short, I finally got vents located where this was manageable, and the problem was solved. In these modern bike engines, especially with a wet sump system, probably close to 80-90% of your oil is in suspension, very little left for the pickup to get to, hence blown engines. Anything you can do to help this oil vent, and get the air out of the crankcase, will let your engine live to fight another day, more baffles around the pickup, better locations for vents, bigger vent hoses, more oil capacity, sometimes it doesn't take much, just in the right place, the cam chain carries up a lot of oil, and also adds air to it, making it hard to get back in the sump. Look at the inside sometime, and imagine where you could make it better for racing purposes, it just might make your engines last longer. Bob!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

You couldn't have said it better. Hence the dry sump.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Or......spend the minute amount I did and be a little creative with baffling the oil pan and possibly fix the issue? Hmmmm.......

Less than a $100 or possibly $1600-$1800..........let me think about that. LOL

Seriously though.........doesn't the same issue arise in a dry sump system? The oil could literally hang in the motor as described in both threads? It still has to get to a "pickup" point. All the factors are still influencing the oil unless I am looking at this wrong???? Put more oil in the motor to offset the suspended oil? At what point does the motor have too much oil in it when going from high rpm to a pace lap speed?

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Let me add a couple items that may have been overlooked. Yes, adding more oil to your current sump, would not be wise, keeping it at the full mark certainly couldn't hurt, but adding capacity would help, moving the pickup to the right side of the sump would be a real good thing to do, that would also be a good place to add capacity, you could add "cheeks" to the oil sump to add capacity. Baffleing the oil to that area of course would help a bunch. And, yes a dry sump system needs venting, because the pump actually pumps more air than it does oil, on the return side, most pumps are at least 2 stage, one side pumps oil from the reserve tank, thru the engine, out the brgs, and is collected in a sump that the return side of the pump picks up, and returns to the oil tank. This sump area is very small, and located where it is in the best location to catch the most oil. Again, being vented in the righ location is critical, as the wrong location will allow it to vent oil directly out of the engine, and that isn't good! I use a 7qt tank, that is vented to the engine, so it can relieve both the engine and the tank, then another hose goes from the engine to a catch can, to finish the atmospheric venting. The 2 stage pump is from a CB750 SOHC Honda, with an added distribution block that I fabricate, that also includes an adjustable bypass, to regulate the oil pressure. These old pumps are plentyful, and do a very good job in this application. You can also buy pumps with more stages, so you can access oil that gets trapped, and doesn't return to the sump, we used to use the Honda pumps in tandem, on certain Kaw, and Suzies to help get the trapped oil back the sump. Thanks! Bob

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I have raced cars with dry sumps so I am "kinda" familiar with the process but your information is really helpful to all of us.

The way I see it...........we have a motor that has certain sized oil galleys and should have certain sized clearances throughout to permit oil flow and maintain a specific desired oil pressure. The manufacturer has designed a system to support his motor requirements. Using any of the motors I have been running in this class........I usually have an oil pressure of around 55-60 psi at racing RPMs and racing temperature. I was told by my midget motor and sprint car motor people some time back to not exceed 75 psi of oil pressure. Anything about that was not good for the system for various reasons. I am assuming since all these bike motors I have ran across usually run about the same 60 psi at temp/rpm, that should be the best all around setting. ??? I have maximized my oil capacity with the current Rosson pan. I fudge it to 6 quarts knowing the oil is "hanging" all around the motor at anything above 3000 rpm. I know this by watching the sight glass as mentioned before. So.......sounds like a typical dry sump would have around 7 quarts for a motor this size? I am not that far off with oil capacity possibly. I have maximized my pickup design so I am confident oil is getting to the oil pump as required and there is next to NO cavitation or aeration if any at all. My question.........how is a dry sump going to make my oil system any better? Increased oil pressure is not the answer if I have been informed right. It still relies on oil getting from the best scavenging point(s). The only thing that really concerns me at this point is that clutch basket spinning and the oil sloshing up against it from lateral G forces. I am going to try some more simple baffle work to try to divert the oil from it if I get a chance.

Not trying to be adversarial......I am just trying to figure out what I can do to improve my system short of going to a dry sump. To be honest.........oil or no oil............I am now wondering if the internal components will become the weak link.......Rods and bearings. Time will tell. Thanks for your information TQ29m.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

My system uses a 2-stage scavenge pump that picks up from a 1/4" plate that replaces the pan. I vent the motor directly to the tank. The tank is an internally vented midget tank (w/-10 fittings). There is no other venting in the system. If the vent line from the motor allows oil to return to the tank without having to make its way to the pump, all the better. The pressure side of the system uses the stock pressure pump, in the stock location, at the same pressure as stock, but is fed by the tank. I use 6qts and the oil temp runs 210 without a cooler, water runs 195.

The benefit of a drysump system is a constant supply on non-aerated oil to the oil pump. Motorcycles have different forces acting in a corner that assist the return of oil to the pan. Drysump systems increase reliability and longevity in a 4-wheel application by allowing the oiling system to perform as it does in a bike.

The builder of my system sees a 1-2 HP increase over a wetsump on the dyno, so there should not be an argument over an unfair advantage.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Here's another view of a dry sump system, at any given time, there is probably not more then a quart of oil in the engine, in fact, if you drain the sump, after you come off the track, in my case anyway, I will only drain about 2/3 of a quart out, the rest is still in the oil gallies, and just clinging to the insides of the engine, so that eliminates the biggest amount of oil that can be in suspension. The catch can merely serves to catch what oil is in the mist that is created, and also catches the unburned alcohol vapors, in my case, after a night of racing, I drain the can, and it'll be about half a Jiffy peanut butter jar, with about an inch and a half of oil, and maybe a quarter inch of a mixture of alky and water mix on top, the water coming from the alky condensing. Most of the newer bike motors that I've been into, all have about the same pressure regulater in them, that are simply spring regulated at around 50-60 psi, and when they open, they just dump the excess oil into the sump, in my dry sump system it is bypassed into the line that goes back to the tank, so same diff. I go back a few years in bikes, and most if not all of them were dry sump, with the exception of the "old" motors, which were total loss, the oil merely drained from a tank, thru the engine, and out on the guys behind you! I had a 1937 Indian Chief, 80 cu in, and it had roller lifters, and dry sump. Wish I had that one back! Bob

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Thanks guys for the info. "Total loss systems" make me remember the old Speedway Bikes I had a chance to ride a couple of times that had the Jawa motors in them......total loss also. All that dripping oil helped keep the dust down on the race track. LOL

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

One other thing, that oil tank provides a place for the oil to de-aeriate, where in a wet sump system, it really doesn't have that opportunity, it is subjected to all the turbulence generated in the cranckase. I once saw a V8 60 midget motor, that had been installed upside down, and dry sumped, that was years ago, and it worked surprisingly well, course most airplane engines were running upside down, and dry sumped, so why not? Good luck! Bob

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I would like to share my opinion on the Dry Sump system and rules in general. Below I have copied information I emailed to many organizations, a reply I received, and my response. I am thankful to WRP for your reply and for racing Mini Sprints!

Gentlemen,
Please find attached the comparison of the stock oil system vs the dry sump oil system. This was done on the same engine in the same car on the same dyno. Take note at the top of each page the Hyper dyno test # and date of test is noted. As you will see the dry sump in fact takes a couple HP to run the 2 stage scavenge sections vs the stock water pump. Not to mention the additional weight of the system. I hope this will put to rest the bazaar thoughts that a dry sump somehow creates a negative pressure in the crank case thus increasing HP! I have not designed, built, or advertised this system to be a HP advantage. This system is to fix the oil related problems with the ZX10 especially, but can easily be adapted to any engine. This turn-key system is currently priced at $1495. I am hopeful that with acceptance and volume manufacturing to get the price down considerably. The fact that these ZX10 engines are plentiful and can be bought at $800 less than the GSXR make the turn-key engine package very competitive.

Rick Hench


Rick,
Thanks for the days share. We do not have a single car using dry sump at our facility and since nobody is currently using it and our racers don't want to spend more money we decided to not allow dry sump systems. There is no current need for them at WRP and after each race season we can re-evaluate the rules. So there is a possibility that we could reverse that in 2015 but in 2014 there will be no dry sumps at WRP.


WRP,
Thank you for your reply. In my opinion making a rule because no one has something within your organization is a bad reason. That reasoning will exclude racers from supporting some events or venues, even if it’s only one time a year. We need to find as many ways as possible to INCLUDE everyone that has an interest and will support this division. Car count is KING above all other concerns! Allowing someone to run a dry sump oil system has nothing to do with existing racers spending any money. I have a dry sump and another racer in Ohio has one from another company. This system has no advantage from a performance standpoint. It takes HP to run the pump and adds weight to the car. This is about fixing an oil related issue on a Kawasaki engine that is available and inexpensive compared to the other popularly run engines. The engine is not being used dependably by many due to the unreliable oil system that has caused many engine failures. Engine failure alone is what is crippling this class and reducing car counts. I am all for containing the costs on engines, “stock engines”. We must be able to easily, reliably, and REPEATEDLY tech the cars and engines for the rules we put in place. Otherwise any set of rules is worthless! I am also in favor of uniform rules between different areas and organizations. Great concept! We also need to work together as organizations on scheduling to maximize our car counts! We all need to put our personal agendas aside and PROMOTE this class of racing. In my humble opinion this division, “Mini Sprints, Lightning Sprint” is hands down the best bang for your buck! If and when this class grows we can all benefit regardless of our personal interests.

Go Fast Turn Left
Rick Hench

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I was informed yesterday that a GOOD, reputable dry sump system would only cost $1500. The really good news......That it includes a new pan, electric water pump/hose system, adapters, oil line hoses, fittings, tank......EVERYTHING ready to bolt it on. This does not necessarily make me an advocate for them mind you but that covers the cost of one blown motor if indeed it saved one. That in itself is a good deal. Thank you Shane R. for the trip down enlightenment road. LOL But keep in mind, I still say if there are cheaper ways to cure some of the issues any of these motors have.........I will be for that immediately. I am all about cheap, affordable racing. Firm believer in the KISS method.

I had a lot of information presented to me yesterday in various conversations that validated what I experienced and how I addressed it on my ZX-10 yesterday. Something that could occur in any of our motors. All the oil is going to the top end at racing RPM's and letting the system suck air if nothing is done to address that. I think I have done much to prevent that with my system. Basically a dry sump sounds like it could do the same thing as long as you prevent the oil from "hanging in the motor" or literally prevent so much from going up there or being held in suspension. Personally, I think that is the root of the problem.....not so much the system that pumps the oil to the vital areas. As always, everyone has their own way of trying to solve problems.

But I thank everyone for their input and information both on here and on the phone.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil

Did anyone tell you that the Kawasaki racing head gasket uses a restricted oil supply passage up to the head (smaller hole in it). You can also restrict the oil supply to the trans and clutch if you don't plan on spending a lot of time sitting around in traffic.

Watch out for them oval shaped main bearing bores. If they want to sell you a motor without a flywheel or stator cover look elsewhere.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Just got those words of wisdom whipped on me yesterday about the restrictor to in the head. But like I explained.....I have set up a system that forces that excess oil right back down to the pan. Don't know if I simply stumbled onto another solution or not. The restrictor is a better deal if it indeed works and doesn't cause other issues. Trust me.........I will be testing it.

Since there is so much oil and force dealing with the return system I have from the valve cover apparatus, I have considered going ahead and put a small oil cooler in the line. Simple deal to do. I am not dealing with a pressure system other than the oil being forced out of the head down my reroute system. But from experience and seeing how quickly it can pump oil out of those two outlets.............it should work.

Also had it explained to me that I need to get to a Kawasaki dealer and see if I can get the racing manual with a whole sh*t load of information/tidbits addressing a lot of issues.............. I am the proverbial babe in the woods evidently.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil


The race manual's are on line http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=28 I did not check to see if they were up or not.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Same goes for Yamaha, anything with a YEC part number is factory racing stuff, and expensive. JMHO, but if it is a problem, I think I'd allow the dry sump system, not make it manditory, but not dis-allow it either. Some guys may be able to do it themselves, and save more money yet, and some may not know that it could be the answer to a load of broken motors, and keep them running the series. Bob

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Bob

The "Kawasaki Racing" head gasket is much cheaper than the stock head gasket and they give you a choice of thickness also.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I was refering to the "hard parts" like cams, $1800.00 ea, titainium rods, "$unobtainium", but available, not sure the average Joe could buy them, but they are available if you know the right people, and of course, money talks, not very loud, but it does. I know of some right now, from a Yamaha race Team, that are spares, but I don't need, or want them, I don't need them, I've yet had any trouble with what came used in a bike motor. Bob

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Bob

The kaw race cam is more like $180.00 but All it is is a stock cam that flunked ISO9000 test.:5:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

cams can't flunk ISO 9000 ;)

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Ok----- they was a little too fat in the flanks. Probably worn grinding wheel.

Had Kaw let them go would Kaw have flunked the ISO9000 certification? Them guys that use a software program name for a handle are hard to get over on.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

ISO 9000 certification doesn't guaranty 100% quality. We have a >1% reject rate and are still ISO certified.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

When I was doing it Draftsmen set on tall stools and machinist counted numbers on a dial.

I guess it is for the better good but it sure takes a lot of extra people to do a job. But then I never seen a machinist move his hands that fast either.:9::9:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I was just corresponding with a guy, and he said he was getting rid of his motorcycle engine and switching to an automotive type. He said he races with the "IMRA" Illinois Midget Racing Association. So I go to their website http://imraracing.com/ . They been steeling my ideas all along. They are like that perfect country western song. They add just about enough rules for anyone wanting to race small midget size race cars on the cheap to do so, and enjoy themselves in the process.

A breath of fresh air in a smoke filled room.

I hope they do well, Wish they weren't so far away from us.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Dad, Sometimes, don't you just feel like a digital Guy in an analog world, or, versa-visa
I hope this clears things up. (probably didn't help much) but, I tried.

Bill May

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Bill

I was just sitting here thinking about that same thing.

I think what I am is probably a guy trying to advocate a conservative philosophy to racing to a bunch of liberal leaning idiologs who think everything can be cured with a rule and at the same time using the liberal philosophy of that if you "YELL LOUD ENOUGH" and long enough you just might get some of your points across.

We all know what we would like to have, and I think it is the same thing, we just take different paths in getting there.

Kinda of like that old Korean thing Ying & Yang.:8::8::5::5::9::9::10:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

IMRA rules are nearly identical to Montpelier Midget series rules, with just a few minor differences. Looks like their focus is western Illinois/eastern Iowa. STORM, which ran at AVCOM Park last year seemed to take the same approach; I haven't seen any updates to thier site (http://www.stormracingseries.com/index.htm) since October. Does anoyone know if they will be running there next year? If a couple of tracks in central/eastern IL and central/western IN adopted similar rules you could almost make a nice little circuit out of that...

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Storm now known as IMRA...ran by same group...partial schedule and rules on www.imraracing.com ...races to be added to schedule....racin is fun

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Jim

I like their idea of running the 2+liter stock motors with the cycle motors. Although the car motor are more than twice the size of the cycle the stock Horsepower comes out about the same.

How many auto motor powered cars do you guys have at this time? I know that several people are building cars for next year.
I was just wondering how well they race together?

The only rule that seems a little out of place is mandating that the car motors can not run after market electronic injection. From the performance, and user friendly side of it Electronics have it all over the mechanical injection. It would not be too hard for Engler to produce throttle bodies with electronic injectors and just like motorcycle dyno jet also builds boxes for the auto ecm that could be used to dial them in.

Are you the Jim that I lost the phone number to?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Dad the Division II rules are basicly the same also but I allow open fuel delivery systems (mechanical-electoric)....I do differ on 2.0 engines like the Focus where we allow any kind of cam or head work (short bloick is stock) to the 2.0 to bring it up to the HP of 1000cc/1200cc/2.4 engines that produce 205HP (all others are stock)....we have ran a year (20 races) here in Florida and purely stock on gas GSXR 1000 has won (4), 1200 Kaw. (7), GSXR1000 on alcohol (3), and Focus (6)....but then it is all NON WING which tells ya it is more of driver and set up not $$$$ engines....my weight rules are close but tend to be on the high end to discourage the use of Titatiumn (illeagle) and allows more diverse drivers as in a bigger driver can come race and not fill he is at a "BIG" disadvantage.

You will never ever keep anyone from spending $$$$ but in todays economy you sure do did to protect the less fortunate that might want to race and not get laped every 3rd lap....to make a field of cars we need everybody!!!!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Wayne

You the Man!!!:9::9:

Youall allow the little GM also, doing my "due GOGLE Diligence" looks like that little Honda motor would be the one to beat. Might want to lay that one back for the Div I National Midgets.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I had a suspicion that was the case; do you know if they plan on running at AVCOM this year? That's a little easier tow for me.
How about a stop in Macon? That'd be a cool track to run a little non-wing D-2 action.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Actually, after Google-mapping, it looks like Sycamore is closest; 234 mi from Indy, vs. 253 to AVCOM and 292 to Quad City.