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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by DAD: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by 7xCoop: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Brad Kuhn is right on the money, this is about ten years later than it should have been though, I hope this saves midget racing
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
OK
The Hot setup now is drifting??? What the heck is cool about drifting. Every time it snowed I would go out and find a parking lot and practice drifting, that was in 1959 I have always been a head of the times. You did have to remember which lots had the those darned parking bumpers in them however, and the crowds weren't too large either. Sometimes I had to go out and generate a crowd to get me off of those darned bumpers. Brad said Manufacture name recognition, Ok. He said action nothing with more action than a car half hidden in tire smoke going sideways down the straight front stretch, unless it's a NASCAR driver showing off after winning a race and leaving the very last bit of what is left of his motor and tires out on the race track. We are in agreement that the Modern four valve small automotive engine could save Midget racing. That's great now we have cars and drivers filling up the pits. How the heck do we fill up the grand stands with computer literate young people. 1. Everybody agrees young people like to watch action even if they aren't too awfully enthused about being active them selves. As an old man I cant think of anything less active than as race on a 1/2 mile and larger race track, sure if a couple of cars get tangled up it is scary for about 2 seconds but for the most parts that is boring racing. Big race tracks are for the astute race fan, you know the ones that take notice to every small nuance of every small event that takes place on the race track, not your casual fan, but the kind that reads and responds in IOW. 2. The PowrI big advantage over USAC has been it's tiny little race tracks for the most part located somewhere out in the sticks far far away from major city's and their massive amounts of entertainment possibility's for the general public. They are the only show in town for miles around. Folks in the sticks like something to do on weekends also. If you are it you get their niche business. A substantial business in a small market beats no business in a large market. 3. Most people don't like race track with long boring straightaway's the action is in the turns so keep the turns as close together as you can. Build a smaller track inside of the big one, make it wide with maybe the inside grove almost flat, put a berm inside of it for the races to ride on, as you move out on the track increase the banking, make it a little track but make it wide, wide to heck with three wide racing lets make it 5 wide racing. 4. I guess track owners like the bigger track because they better fit the large sedans that they are used to racing on them. The old sedans with their 2.97 rear ends just put in in second and stepped on the gas. Well times are changing them sedans are getting dates with crushers and are disappearing from the scene very rapidly. Just like the Focus and Echotec Midgets those are the popular race car of the future, and they don't perform well on big old race tracks either. 5. Car owners and drivers can probably build back their numbers with simpler rules with an eye to keeping cost down not with rules that never work but guidelines to keep the racers in line. Keep options of handicapping the hot dogs open and keep weight and tire requirements to sensible limits. It it requires unobtanium to make weight then raise the weight limit. The budget racer is handicapped with these not so very logical weight limits. In midgets do you make a 250 pound driver look for another class to race in and keep the Midget Class only for the Jockeys among us? 6. If racing is going to come back it will take the racers and track operators working together to do it. In Kentucky our state motto is "United We Stand Divided We Fall" think about it. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Originally Posted by Will Shunk: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Coop
It has something to do with attention span. Back when I was a kid we would sit around all day just to watch paint dry. Now days they have quick drying paint and quick everything else so the "X" generation has no attention span at all. They might forget why they came to the race track if it takes too long to get the race going. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
OK
I have a BIG question to ask. Who were the top finishing Focus>EchoTec>Honda> or alternate power plant powered Midgets this year at the Chili Bowl Nationals? The Nights best finish Race,the Saturday Main letter, and finish position. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by DAD: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Rusty
Air is pretty rare up there, you outperformed 250+ cars with an affordable engine package.:6::6: By the way you are banned from "Du Quoin Race for the Golden Pumper">>>>NOT!!!!! We sure hope to see you there. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by Kellen Conover: I think Stock blocks are the mini sprints of the future. Ride over to Du Quoin and check them out. It would be good to see you. Bill |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by DAD: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
I've been following this discussion since it started and I got a couple questions.
With all the turmoil that's been going on in my area with the lightning sprints I started looking the Ecotec deal. First I read where Dustin Darnell said the Ecotec engines cost $1000. so how did these engines go from that to costing $8000. from Zero Motorsports and then $15000. from Revolution racing. I'm not saying that they are not worth that but how it's all ready getting out of control. I've been around the racing game a long time and keeping cost under control has been the big problem since the days of the Offy. I hope that someone can come up with a solution before we all go broke. The problem with automotive style engines is that car companies leave to much on the table to go get and it costs a lot of money to turn them into race engines and low mileage motorcycle engines are getting harder to get. So what is the answer??? Bobby Layne 2014 MLS Champion |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by red70racer: I think it bodes well that a HonDoo under my proposal can compete against National Midgets that are currently the hot set up , if it can not compete so be it , but if a 10k Hondoo could compete against our current crop of National Midgets , that should make it possible for more peeps to participate in National Midget Racing , without obsoleting any ones current National Midget equip , should be a Win Win for everyone .... but I could be missing something ? |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Roy
There is a kid here in Kansas City that has done the Honda 2.4 and damn he has spent a ton of money. I'm not sure that he wouldn't have spent less money buying a Esslinger. With the C.N.C. ported head , aftermarket cams, rods,pistons,Ti valves, big springs crankshaft,Darton sleeves dry sump and all the other goodies where is he ahead? Like I have said before how do we as a racing group that has the passion with all of are heart and soul about midget racing get the cost under control?? Bobby Layne |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
It looks like Rusty made the B main after transfering from the C on his Prelim night, then was in the E feature on Sat. Very Respectable showing, I also saw Chase Briscoe transferred thru 4 races in a Jeff Davis Honda as well.
And Bobby brings up a great point, we can talk about going down this route but what are we actually getting and is it the equivalent or better than what we already have. |
600s 1000s and sprint cars with Rollcages and wings running 1/4 miles have done as much to bring downi midget car counts as costs. I too would like to have a disposable motor that I could buy for 2 grand and run 40 times then throw away and get another. Maybe that's out there but I haven't seen it. All I know is that every time a series like this starts you get about 15 to 22 cars and the majority of the people who were calling for change and saying that's all they need to go racing then never show up or support it. They usually come up with another excuse to not do what they weren't going to do to begin with. They then usually talk about how they wouldn't have done it that way. I hope this is a tipping point and good things come from this...I just think people need to quit worrying out how to save it and grow and enhance it instead. Before anyone thinks that I am just blowing smoke or running my mouth....I was the presenting sponsor for Montpeiler series last year. I actuallly spent money to support their concept. A concept I wasn't sold on at first.
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by bobby01: By comparison, if you wanted to go as inexpensive as possible, you can grab a junkyard car engine for somewhere between $500 and $1500. That essentially gets you a block, crank and head. You will have to put in another $600 to $1500 into the block. You will need to put about $1300 into the head. If the crank is junk you may have to buy a new one for $350 or so. So just comparing the costs of a block, crank and head for a stock engine I'm at around $2400(best case) to $4650(worst case). This is still a far cry from $12500.00 and I am getting a virtually new engine and not a used up old midget engine that I bought for 12K but need to spend another $5k on just to get it to respectable status. |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
o.k. why not have all engines be 146 ish cu.in. if you want to buy an $35,000 go ahead. if you want to buy a $5,000 to $10,000 ecotec type go ahead. let them fight it out on the track. if the ecotec type engine wins then the $35,000 goes away. if both engines are close i would buy the ecotec type engine.
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by bobby01: |
Ok....how are they making the power? What is the life expectancy of the internals? Drag racing isn't 1/4 mile dirt track racing. The motor is subjected to different forces of sustained rpms and being bogged down on the lower ranges with rapid changes in rpms. I would be interested in getting the information from motors used in a dirt track environment
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by LEADERS EDGE: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by LEADERS EDGE: Thanks for supporting Montpelier Speedway. I attended the first meeting Harold had in Indy when he was seeking imput and advice. He took all this bull that was flowing around the table, digested it came up with a set of rules, and I'll be darned they work pretty darned good. Stock block midget will come. Now for whatever it is worth we just got done with a show that had maybe 75 serious balls to the wall Midget racers and 250 guys in it for just the fun of it. It seemed like it worked pretty good also. There will never be 100 cars on the road going to National Shows all over the United States. There are other factors that go into whether a guy travels or stays close to home and becomes a weekend warrior. Just a guess but I would bet that a National touring team's Motor expenditures is probably 20% of the budget. Transportation, wages, tires lodging taking up the major expense. So while we are sitting around worrying about them they just go about their own business of being a traveling team. The guys on the road probably make up less than 10% of the total Midget racing population. The weekend warriors the rest, while the weekend teams try to make do on hand me down motors and sometime even tires and other expendables. If we could get a good stock block program in place that would work for them they might save enough to allow a few more teams on the road again also but it won't be drastic change. The growth I am looking for is a growth in the weekend division, I would not go on the Road show if you give me 3 cars, 6 engines a transporter and a crew and payed my expenses and a 6 figure salary>>>Sorry I like what I am doing right now. Since it was pretty today Doug and I went out and spent a few hours cleaning the car up from our last race at Du Quoin. Mini sprints for us is low maintenance racing and we like it that way. After all I got a life, sitting right here on my dead butt and posting on the IOW. I started out racing quarter midgets back in the 50's, we always had classes. I can't figure out why everybody wants to make one thing fit everybody. I wouldn't want to start my kid out racing guys like Rico with years and years of seat time under his belt.;) I would be looking for something a little slower and cheaper. Why not a stock block class like EchoTec. I am an observer> some of my first observations were at the Indy 500 in the "Snake Pit". An observer could observe almost any thing in that place. We have been racing Mini Sprints for about 20 years and I observed that they were about as cheap, easy to maintain and fast as any open wheel car out there even in our 600cc form. A couple of years ago I was fortunate to observe an EchoTec race at the Shootout. I observed those darned little car and us were pretty close together performance wise. Still observing I noticed they perform pretty good in an almost stock form. There are guys out there saying they need rods, pistons, valves and cams to really work. I am not to sure of their reasoning right now but I guess I need to do a little more observing. I also noticed over the last several years neither class had substantial car counts alone. It seemed to me if the groups loosened up their rules a little to allow cross class racing they could help one another. I know their are groups out there that do this and that is a good thing. I think Echotec's can be inexpensive or expensive. The budget guys will work on salvage parts and probably have $2500.00 in their Long Block, the better funded racer might have $6000.00 or more in a brand new long block crate motor with all the "TRICK" racing modifications installed by an engine builder. A little much for me but what the heck. We have allowed after market cams, valves, springs, rods and pistons at the DuQuoin race in February however when I stick my bore scope down them holes I do not want to find indications of machine or grinding work. That is not to say that I am against porting, heck no but not in a so called stock class We would call this first class "Modified Stock". If we want to port lets work on another class lets call that the "B" modified class. My next class would be the "Double A" class. This is where I change gears. I do not know why people get so hung up on 4 cylinders inline and slightly less than 3000 cc motors. The new Hot Rods out there on the street today are V6's that are around 3500 to 3800cc's. Set you displacement limit to 3500 cc or less. Specify stock block stock head with no welding or machining to change basic engineering designs and strengths. Everything else is wide open do what you can afford and have fun. PS Roy I bought my wife one of them HonDoo lawn mower's 25 years ago because she could start it and it pulled itself around. Twenty Five years later she is still cutting the grass and starting that thing. She is now on Social Security. They have both very good investments. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by Roy Bleckert: I guess I should not have called him a kid he's late 30's early 40's and yes he has EFI injection on it. I would say to get 600+ horsepower it's not naturally aspirated and I haven't seen any dirt track midget organizations that allow turbos or superchargers. The point I was trying to make was that when the professional engine builders get involved the cost of engines go through the roof. |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by bobby01: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
So now Ford has replaced their Hot Rod V6 motors with something they call the "Echo Boost" a little 4 cylinder high compression,direct (combustion chamber) injection, forced (Turbo) induction engine. Very efficient and powerful for it's size.
Where does that put things? The manufactures are moving a head at light speed and racers are stuck back somewhere in the 50's.;) Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by bobby01: But, now that you mention it... there was at least one car at the shootout that had an ecotec installed and race ready for about 1 grand...but to do that required use of some parts they already had laying around and a TON of elbow grease and fabrication. |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
This has been a good read with alot of replies and views. One thing that you have to understand is the NATIONAL midget pkg is here to stay. D-II is NOT going to replace them in any shape or form. What we attempting to do is give racers that can't afford a national type of engine the opportunity to come race up front within their budget and be competitive with everyone else and not just a back market.
By no means are we trying to take away what others like, such as the wings on mini sprints, but we are trying to be compatible to race each other as a whole. If we can get everyone on the same page/rules pkg and be compatible with each our series (ALL) will grow leaps and bounds. I have have done more research, talk to different racers and track owners in the last 4 months that I feel I have a good grasp on thing. We will be having a meeting with all the different race organizations that will be in Florida for the GDN on Sat. Feb. 14 in the am. Just to clarify we are MIDGETS whether you race a automotive engine or a motorcycle engine. There is no 1 thing from a sprint car that will bolt on to our cars but there are many things, in fact 90% of the chain driven cars are converted midget chassis with all midget components. The difference is horsepower when we compare ourselves with "National" midgets. Division II is just like any entity that races across the US....as an example, Nascar you have the cup car, then the lower division made up of mostly guys that can not afford a cup deal and below them are the trucks. So basically you have Division I or what was Grand National cars before sponsor money came about, then Division II which was the old Late Model Sportsman class again Bush Beer came along and they became Buch cars and now you have the truck series that is a Division III series. If we were to get a major sponsor like Dads Mufflers would we be call Dad's Muffler Midgets....you bet your arse if there is enough money there. The FUTURE is very bright if you let go of the pass and grab hold of the future and if you can ALL look at the betterment of midget racing as a whole we have a very bright future ahead of us.....I can even see allowing turbo's in the not so distant future. |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Wayne
MONEY TALKS and BULL$HIT WALKS. Sooo>>>> I still Like "Speedway Motors" Got kind of a down under twang to it don't it.:6::8:;) SPEEDWAY MIDGETS OF AMERICA >>>>>> SMOA Did you ever get your hands on that wayward trophy? Honest Dad Himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by DAD: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Wayne
The car Roy Robins won the first Knoxville Nationals in was named "Fido". It was originally an old Champ car that Harry Hyde (Days of Thunder) modified to race with the then Modified division at the Sportsdrome in Jeffeersonville Indiana. Andy Hampton drove for him then and in 3 short years they won every race in sight and single handedly killed open wheel racing in the Louisville Kentucky Market. Harry went on to NASCAR fame and at one point racing with a kid named Tim Richmond. Hollywood went on and made a movie about the odd couple. Harry sold the car to some guy up in Ohio I think by the name of Hoffman and Roy borrowed it from him to take to Knoxville with a home made wing on it. He came back with all their money in his pockets. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by DAD: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
The annual Midget discussion thread on IOW is about to surpass 13K views.... we can now go back to regular programing LOLLL !!!!!!!
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Isn't this called going "VIRAL"!!!
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Originally Posted by Wayne Davis: Called Midgets......😃 |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Cheap - Fast - Reliable: Pick two of three
I've been fielding cars in the Illini Series since 2008. I started developing a Honda motor in 2009. We ran two different Hondas last year, one with EFI. Here's what I have learned: 1. Unless you luck into a very low mileage [<50,000] motor you will want to rebuild your salvage yard motor. Add $2000 for parts and machine work. It costs $140 in gaskets & bolts to pull the head off one of these motors. 2. The bolt on parts are very pricy. I don't like the look of the single throttle body but real racing injection is $2000 or more. 3. Fuel pumps are a PITA. An electric pump of sufficient quality & volume is over $300. A GOOD mechanical pump is >$400. 4. Accessory drive parts & brackets are very costly. Look at the catalogs. Figure $600/750 for bracket/pulley/belts; more if you have yo change the water pump. We may put more thought into the serpentine OEM system. 5. Ignition systems are also expensive. I don't know of anyone using a modified OEM system. Aftermarket systems are >$800. EFI more like $1350. 6. Oil pans are $500. I tried making my own; required more fab skill than I could round up in my circle of volunteers. 7. Headers are also expensive. I used modified passenger car headers but real racing headers are going to be $500 or more. These costs are baseline numbers. You might do better, you might do worse. EcoTecs are always going to be cheaper than Hondas in the salvage yard because there are so many of them. All the bolt on stuff is about the same. |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Gear
Had to take my shoes off to do the computation, but what I got out of your post is, you race with a $9000.00 Honda motor. Of that $9000.00 initial investment you can expect to reuse about $6000.00 in reusable parts from your original investment on your next engine. How many races or seasons do you expect to get out of your Honda? Taking everything into consideration sounds like you are doing pretty good. Honest Dad himself:6::6: PS Do you guys also race backwards?:5: http://illiniracing.com/gallery-3_html_files/292.jpg |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Dad, your math skills are right on. We expect to get (2) seasons (35-40 shows) without any big cash input. Each winter you need to take apart and inspect but the parts on all these DOHC motors are pretty durable. Some motors may need close attention to timing chains & valve train parts. Others need bottom end scrutiny [bolt torque & bearings].If people really through money at these things & get them up to 375 HP they will not get 2 seasons out of them.
It is all about what we engineers call the "S-N" curve. As stresses go up the life goes down. This is why Top Fuel & Funny Cars get basically new engines every 10 seconds of operation [High stress/low life] & car ferries last 100 years [low stress/long life]. Modern DOHC motors are designed to go 200,000 miles as maintained by a 20 year old college student [infrequent oil changes, cheap gas, mixture of short trips and 85 mph trips home for the weekend]. |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Gear
Watching them top fuel mechanics overhaul a motor is more exciting to me than watching them things jump down the drag strip. From your rules book I would ass>ume that you are using stock internals right. When we strike out for that magical 400hp mark the internals will improve substantially and help add to the engine life span. The week link in the modern Midget "Clone" race motor seems to be in the head, if I am not mistaken. If the bottom end if machined and assembled correctly it is pretty much bullet proof. The 4 valve overhead cam design seems to have cured a lot of problems associated with Push Rod single valve head designs of the 1950's. I dislike the EPA with a passion but had it not been for them we would probably be driving around in reconstituted Edsel's today. They forced action on the manufactures and true to form you engineer types met that challenge.:8::6: Now if the EPA would also come down on the modern race sanctioning bodies we might see change.:7:;) I doubt if we consumers have enough clout to bring about much change by ourselves. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
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