Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Originally Posted by Kirk Spridgeon:
...Seadog - that was not me. I think the young drivers in USAC are great, but the guys you need to talk about the most are the Coons, Darland, Hines, Gardner, Kuhn, etc. The younger group will change from year to year, but that is what makes them so well-liked by younger kids. It is cool to see kids like Whitt, Boat, etc. and when/if they ever leave for something else, there will be a new group to replace them....

Sorry about that, Kirk. That's what I get for going by memory and not going back and checking the posts.

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I think Stadium Racing should be on the list of "what if's"

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Originally Posted by Tony Barhorst:

In regard to "losing my head" that day..well...I was not called by the current leaders..and offered any advice on makeup dates for UPSET FANS...any professional entertainment company would have at least had the main guys call with help....Now they have my Thursday Midget Week date...AT A TRACK THAT LEVI JONES LEFT THE BALLPARK THE VERY LAST TIME THERE?...What is safer there NOW? IRONIC!!!

That's a bit of revisionist history, there Tony. Most of the people that were highly upset that day, didn't get that way because of the cancellation. They were infuriated and left mad because of the way you took the microphone and turned on the drivers and race teams that were leaving. I think most knowledgeable fans had a certain degree of skepticism when they drove in and saw a road grader, with grass growing up through the cab, sitting outside of turns 1 and 2. And while driving all the way over there and not getting to see a race does kind of suck, a cancellation for safety reasons (whether you/I/anybody agree with that assessment or not) is one of those things that trumps your desire, as a race fan, to see a race that day. On D.O.'s show early in the week after this, USAC publicly accepted responsibility for their part in this and has moved on. You'll do yourself a huge favor when you can do the same. Maybe you can even win back some of the race fans you lost that day. But that's just my opinion.

Jerry

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Jerry,

...I am not going to replay that deal....I am still trying to move on..

Poor leadership in regard to pavement racing is the topic here. I have had my say..time for other ideas..otherwise we get distracted from the real problems.

THE PROBLEM is COSTS TO TEAMS

Kevin Miller started this topic...says he wants "town hall meetings"...Well why have they not listened to top teams with ideas? IF YOUR TALKING ABOUT CUTTING THE RACERS COST...FORGET IT.

I happen to be a pavement fan too..I hate to see the leaders of the sport..let it go down the drain.. They have been warned.....

I am just a race fan who promotes racing...Lets see what USAC does next..it will be interesting.

Jerry...I get a kick out of your posts..Spridge...thanks for your observations........Out...

Tony Barhorst

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I've totally stayed out of this thread because basically I don't know many FACTS or ANSWERS

I can put it to you from a fans perspective.

I don't think your ever going to control cost untill all sanctions and tracks can agree. With that being said. Minus the Hauler and shop it still cost a quarter million to run the USAC sprint car schedual (And run up front both dirt and pavement) How many working class racers and car owners can afford that? THE SPONSORS ARE JUMPING SHIP INCLUDING THE BIGGER TEAMS!

Some things there that could be done is Packages with Hotels for group rates to the teams making these long hauls to California, PA, Mich, Maybe with a hotel package discount USAC offers recognition of sponsorship. This could help locallly as well for other teams to join here (Cali teams coming for sprint week ect)

As a fan, I hate all the direct competiton that dilutes shows. Im sorry but yeah, we had some loyal USAC racers at Midget week but Saturday was diluted. Both Powri and Badger and MSCS (Yeah its sprints but some are midget drivers too) Schedualled directly against it. I kinda wish a track that had the long standing schedualed date at the last minute would put up a huge purse to teach the others a lesson. Work together or pay for it!

COOPERATE. The big races of the past brought all the big names, Not just a handful.

Payouts, hum WOO can charge 32 a person and pay 10000 to win USAC chargest (GEnerally 20 and pays 4)
SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE! YOUR PRODUCT IS SUPERIOR!

Sponsors and marketing, I've heard that USAC was going to promote a bit (Can't say that for fact) But unless you stumble onto www.usacracing.com you really don't see nothing except track scheduals and even they don't reflect changes like the Dick Gaines Memorial now being 10g to win.

Race fans know the score, Were blessed with a lot of options and cursed at the same time as many drivers have those same options and THE FAN SUFFERS FOR IT.

Say what you want about Tony Barhorst. The shows I've attended (And even the ones I didn't) I knew about them well in advance (Had flyers under my windshield wipers) He goes out and gets other things like a NASCAR star, A car crusher for kids. He involves kids with his Rumble series (THATS THE FUTURE NO DOUBT) and he promotes in radio markets near the events. (He looses some and makes some) but he tries to PROMOTE THE SPORT AND THE FUTURE OF IT!. He rents tracks and facilities to provide the opertunity for racers to race and fans to enjoy it. Like all promoters. HE takes a chance. Something Im thinking many promoters aren't willing to do anymore.

I welcome all sponsorships but do not think they should have a controling say in the show in any way shape or form

Some of its not all USAC, Many tracks do not count USAC shows to their track championship points. Id at least offer SHOW UP POINTS (50) just for racing at the home track.

Lots of problems, the solutions?

My statements may not be all true. I welcome corrections. I've enjoyed reading through this and some people with hard facts and figures.

Chuck, superfan who just wants the best for racing, I think there is room for a NATIONAL NON WINGED SERIES but its gotta be supported from THE BOTTOM UP!

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I don't have any solid answers. But as someone who attends many different pavement and dirt tracks, late models, modifieds, sprints, midgets, super modifieds, wings, non wings and a ton of support classes mixed in together, I can see the problems from a fans perspective.

Nobody in the general population knows Dave Darland, Jerry Coons or any sprint/midget/silver crown teams who have been around for 50 years. Those same people do know who Scott Bloomquist and Steve Kinser are. If you don't know who they are, maybe it's time to venture out of your comfort zone. These same people love watching "and they walked away" videos that show a midget in Australia flipping 20 times in a row. If they went to a race to see a wreck, but saw some good racing they might just like what they see and come back. Please correct me, I am only 31 yrs. old., live in Canada and have never been to the Indy 500.

My thoughts are there is no name recognition, or the ability to stick a name to a paint scheme, type of car or a car number is not possible in USAC. The casual fan can't follow racing, like so many of the experts on here can. A lot of people probably can't tell the difference in a silver crown car and a sprint car. Or a midget and a sprint car. Let alone from year to year, who has driven for the same team. There are exceptions to this, but far and wide teams and drivers don't seem to stick together in USAC.

As for all of the thousand year olds preaching about 1950, get over yourself because times, the world and technology change. You can change your attitude, learn how to spell so people can take you seriously or stop going to races.

P.S. when you respond with "YOUR A IDIOT", it's actually "YOU"RE AN IDIOT".

Hope to see some of you during sprint week, or at the Toledo show next week.

James

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Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:

As a fan, I hate all the direct competiton that dilutes shows. Im sorry but yeah, we had some loyal USAC racers at Midget week but Saturday was diluted. Both Powri and Badger and MSCS (Yeah its sprints but some are midget drivers too) Schedualled directly against it. I kinda wish a track that had the long standing schedualed date at the last minute would put up a huge purse to teach the others a lesson. Work together or pay for it!

Chuck, superfan who just wants the best for racing, I think there is room for a NATIONAL NON WINGED SERIES but its gotta be supported from THE BOTTOM UP!

In 2008 Powri had 3 races scheduled the same weekend as they did this year [mid June], so who schedule against whom here?

http://web.archive.org/web/200802062...sp?SeriesID=12

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Originally Posted by Vukie:
In 2008 Powri had 3 races scheduled the same weekend as they did this year [mid June], so who schedule against whom here?

http://web.archive.org/web/200802062...sp?SeriesID=12

But was this LBurg or its fans fault? The MSCS deal was rescheduled.

Im just saying, Work together. If USAC can help Powri on some weekends, Powri should help USAC.
Put Davey Ray, Altig, Loyett and their stars against Boat, Levi, Hines, Coons and the other stars AS MANY TIMES AS POSSIBLE in both sanctions and the fans benifit and grow and so do the purses.

If Sprint week didn't morph into a 40+ car show, would it be as popular as it is today? It took many years to get the fan support it recieves today. It wasn't always this way.

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I honestly haven't the inclination to read the hundred and forty so posts on this subject. I have spoken to some of the folks here about the "What ifs" in the past and I am not a competitor who is financially-affected by any of this. But I hear and read often of the "(such and such) admitted their mistake and has moved on"-declaration, used above with regards to USAC and the apparent debacle at Mr. Barhorst's event. What has to be taken at full face-value is not only that the fans as well reach a point where they face a tipping point and "move on", but the fact that for many this "moving on" is irreversible..
For every fan who moves away from regular race attendance then eventually returns to select events that hold a special place for them, there are an equal number of fans who just Move On. As in: Go Away. Many draw a line in the sand, see it crossed, and turn their backs. Others approach a routine event, see something so unforeseen, amateurish and irresponsible that they find themselves almost surprised to say "Never Again!" on their way home, or in the days after.
From a fan's perspective, occurrences, events or debacles whittle away the tracks, races or sanctioning bodies that a fan feels willing to support. For myself, I've never returned to an Eldora winged event since I left before seeing Jason Sides take the checkered flag at The King's Royal some years back in the most offensive tire-eating travesty I've been subjected to. Similarly, when Farmer City had midgets shredding their tires at a ridiculous rate at a race around the turn of the century, I Q-Tipped away the debris from that track and haven't gone back.
There are quite simply too many occasions where USAC has fundamentally offended/betrayed/disappointed fans in the many decades in which it has dominated the traditional sprint scene, and the decision to abandon an entity that seemingly abandoned them cannot be marginalized or reversed. The consequences of causing this kind of fan upheaval is that these former fans find other alternatives and become loyal to them.
As much as this appeal to the creativity and suggestions of the rabid fans of open wheel that inhabit IOW may be well-intentioned and somewhat progressive, the genie is out of the bottle here. Re-acquiring a large fan base would take a sea-change of every kind of involvement in open wheel: Greater affordability of cars and equipment; Greater participation of lucrative sponsorship; Significantly diminished admission cost, particularly to full families; Greater care provided to track surfaces to ensure action-filled events; Shortened durations of racing programs (perhaps fewer underclasses, by consequence); Improved facilities(restrooms),Improved interaction at earlier hours between fans and teams......
Can ANY of this happen? Can MOST of it happen? What domino would have to fall first? Sponsorship holds the obvious Master Key to all the other locks, but what incentive is there for high dollar sponsors to indulge what appears to be a sport with an ever-decreasing fanbase? TV can't happen without sponsorship, but without TV, where is the sponsorship incentive? Must there come a figure like a Forrest Lucas, Tony Stewart, Humpy Wheeler or Bruton Smith who simply says "I will prop up this sport on my money and effort and force it back into the limelight"?
That pie-in-the-sky scenario seems silly on its face, but the notion that a coordinated effort can be orchestrated throughout the racing community to limit costs and synchronize a cooperative towards a greater good is every bit as silly.
Tradition will NEVER offset what is known (in some cases, ironically) as progress and the "tradition" of progress is ever-increasing costs, and regress is punishable by irrelevance and fiscal death. The fate of Manzanita Speedway is a grim testament to the power of the bottom line. It is unimaginable that Terre Haute is not going to suffer the same fate, so catch it while you can. Every time you attend a race at an event and notice new residences in view of the facility you can begin the countdown to extinction.
Many among us have seen the zenith, the glory days of this sport. In terms of relevance, in terms of financial rewards and in terms of fan support. Many will continue to provide their limited financial support through attendance and enthusiasm, despite expecting to live long enough to witness the near-extinction of the sport as it is currently recognized.
I support all progressive thinking and clever ideas that would bring stability and opportunity to teams that deserve them and most of all, the Drivers. The ONLY constant throughout all of the eras is the unwavering competitive spirit, will, bravery and extraordinary resilience of the drivers themselves. From Ray Harroun through Wilbur Shaw and AJ Foyt to Jan Opperman and Bubby Jones and Steve Kinser through Bryan Clauson and all his contemporaries. This isn't a steroid-driven sport or a physical specimen-filled league. Lloyd Ruby likely couldn't have vertically-leaped over a carton of cigarettes, long-side down. But nobody would bring a watch to Tony Stewart's attempt at a 100-meter dash, either; they'd bring a book to read.The drivers haven't gotten bigger or faster, stronger or less-given over to "vice". They haven't demonstrably changed as characters or heroes, as talents or enigmas. Jesse Hockett could jump into Jud Larson's seat today and Brad Sweet would fit nicely into Mario Andretti's. They'd race cause they do.
It's the cars that have gotten faster, the crowds that have gotten smaller, the bills that have gotten bigger. The dangers are the same type, just far fewer thanks to equipment safety and recuperative medical advances. I am pulling for the drivers and the fans in this economic grind that limits us all. Whether a sanctioning body survives, particularly one as rudderless and mistake-prone during so many critical eras and decisions as USAC has often been, is of next-to-no concern to the greater narrative.
I'll still go to Bloomington for The Sheldon, to Kokomo for Midget Week, to Oskaloosa for the two nights of Challenges and to Eldora for the (three or) Four Crown. Hopefully, I'll be able to afford to attend the Perris Oval Nats. They all deliver Bang For The Buck. And my buck is one that you'd better be willing to bang hard for. USAC...How Hard Are You Willing To Bang For My Buck? I know with total certainty how hard the Drivers are willing to bang for it. How hard are you?

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Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
But was this LBurg or its fans fault? The MSCS deal was rescheduled.

Im just saying, Work together. If USAC can help Powri on some weekends, Powri should help USAC.
Put Davey Ray, Altig, Loyett and their stars against Boat, Levi, Hines, Coons and the other stars AS MANY TIMES AS POSSIBLE in both sanctions and the fans benifit and grow and so do the purses.

If Sprint week didn't morph into a 40+ car show, would it be as popular as it is today? It took many years to get the fan support it recieves today. It wasn't always this way.

Where did I say that it was Lawrenceburg Speedway or the fan's fault? I didn't.

This is what you wrote "but Saturday was diluted. Both Powri and Badger and MSCS (Yeah its sprints but some are midget drivers too) Schedualled directly against it."

I pointed out that Powri had races on that weekend in 2008 [and partly in 2007 also], so USAC schedule races against them. So who's to blame for "Schedualled directly against it"? USAC or Powri?

The races and the tracks were hundred's miles apart and in different time zones. So what you telling me is that if USAC has midget somewhere, Powri and Badger shouldn't have a race of their own that night? Try and tell that to the members of those two clubs.

Badger has had races at Angell Park on Sunday nights for decades and when USAC had the IMW race at Kokomo that night, weren't they going against Badger?

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Some interesting reading here for sure. Cost containment in pavement racing is definitley the key to it's survival in my mind. Bannning private testing at USAC sanctioned tracks would be a huge step in that direction. The amount of tires it takes to run on pavement vs. dirt automatically makes it more expensive. Not sure if there's a way around that, would limiting the teams on the number of tires they can use per race help? Kevin Miller has gone on record in the past stating that he has no interest in taking any kind of steps to reduce the costs associated with USAC racing. Not exactly forward thinking in these economically challenging times. I see a lot of room for improvement in USAC as a whole. Money is the bottom line, racers need more of it and USAC needs to do a better job of finding it. The two areas they need to focus on in order to achieve that is 1. Promotion and 2. Marketing. Promotion to fill the stands and Marketing to generate sponsors. On the Promotion side USAC races shouldn't just be races, they need to be events. Think outside the box on this but do something to reach out to people who have never been to a race let alone a USAC race. Autograph sessions, fireworks, driver intros, give people a show! On the Marketing side if your filling the seats you'll give sponsors a reason to look at sponsoring USAC racing as a viable means of marketing there products and selling them to consumers. Again be creative and think outside the box. Lucas Oil is a great example of a company that uses Motorsports Marketing through there involvement with a number of sanctioning bodies as an excellent vehicle to reach consumers and sell products. Plus they have there own TV production company! A company like Lucas would be a perfect fit with USAC. USAC seems like it's loaded with plenty of Chiefs but maybe not enough Indians. Surely with the staff they have in place they could make some positive changes in house without the need for "Town Hall Meetings" to generate ideas for the direction it needs to head. I'll climb off the soapbox now...

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The original post asked what ideas we have to make USAC racing more successful with a focus on the pavement sprint cars side. I am one of many IOW lurker that reads every post but does not offer much input but this subject I believe I may have something to offer.

Our family race team has run USAC Ford Focus for three years and in the last four year ran USAC and local Indiana dirt sprint car races. We have been a member of USAC for all of those years. In the USAC sprint car series we have only been able to run the dirt races. We do not run the whole schedule but run as many that we can make and be competitive in. Our race team is financed with our family disposable income, any winnings and with a little financial help from other individuals.

In the Focus series we were able to run dirt and pavement with the same chassis and a lot parts to change it over from dirt to pavement and back to dirt. To date I still believe that this was some of the most economical racing that our team has ever done and that we where competitive in each week.

If we decided to run a pavement sprint car and wanted to be competitive we would need to purchase another frame, motor, wheels and all of the other hardware to build another car just to run seven USAC pavement races with no local races in our area. This would be compared to the fifteen plus USAC dirt races along with all of the other local dirt races that we could run every weekend in Indiana.

If our team was to run a pavement sprint car we would need some or all of the following:
•A sponsor to help defray the cost (what will the sponsor get for his investment)
•Lower cost of the equipment (same frame & motor)
•Lower operating cost (less cost in tires, fuel, travel, etc.)
•More races (more usage of the equipment that we have invested in)
•Increased purses (help with the cost of the investment and operating)
•Win the lottery (fix all of my problems or just start them)

In no way am I asking for any of this. I am just making a statement if our team was to attempt to go pavement sprint car racing this is what would have to happen.

Now if USAC can take time and analyze the situation, develop and implement a plan then maybe in the future our team can go pavement sprint car racing.

In the end the people that are associated with our race team are a bunch of racing addicts that will do about anything to compete in this world of race that we all enjoy.

Kirk Robbins

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
But was this LBurg or its fans fault? The MSCS deal was rescheduled.

Im just saying, Work together. If USAC can help Powri on some weekends, Powri should help USAC.
Put Davey Ray, Altig, Loyett and their stars against Boat, Levi, Hines, Coons and the other stars AS MANY TIMES AS POSSIBLE in both sanctions and the fans benifit and grow and so do the purses.

If Sprint week didn't morph into a 40+ car show, would it be as popular as it is today? It took many years to get the fan support it recieves today. It wasn't always this way.

Why should they work together? Isn't competition what drives business to improve and do better? I understand you're thinking it will help drivers and such but won't one of them end up riding the others coat tails? Like powri.... Competition is what makes things good...gives people a choice makes businesses work harder. Sounds kind of like that only having hoosier to pick from with tires.
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Printable version of this thread... https://www.indianaopenwheel.com/pri...ad.php?t=19183

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Originally Posted by Checker'd Past:
wings........hell no!!!!!!!!!!!

ha ha well your entitled to your opinion but remember somethings sell and some dont :)...
50mcrewguy i at the zoo when cameron kicked every ones ass and i was at winchester also..

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Originally Posted by Bill Gardner:
Printable version of this thread... https://www.indianaopenwheel.com/pri...ad.php?t=19183

This must be the High-Tech version of ; "For a transcript of this program send one dollar to Merkle Press."

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Originally Posted by Jerry Shaw:
That's a bit of revisionist history, there Tony. Most of the people that were highly upset that day, didn't get that way because of the cancellation. They were infuriated and left mad because of the way you took the microphone and turned on the drivers and race teams that were leaving. I think most knowledgeable fans had a certain degree of skepticism when they drove in and saw a road grader, with grass growing up through the cab, sitting outside of turns 1 and 2. And while driving all the way over there and not getting to see a race does kind of suck, a cancellation for safety reasons (whether you/I/anybody agree with that assessment or not) is one of those things that trumps your desire, as a race fan, to see a race that day. On D.O.'s show early in the week after this, USAC publicly accepted responsibility for their part in this and has moved on. You'll do yourself a huge favor when you can do the same. Maybe you can even win back some of the race fans you lost that day. But that's just my opinion.

Jerry

I thought this was over?????? Tony didn't make me mad, His statements only came after dozens of haulers were lined up leaving while fans were still comming in. Not that I excuse them THE FANS WERE TOLD NOTHING.
That matters totally resolved with me both by USAC and Tony. It may have hurt Tonys image. Can't blame you if you feel that way. I don't blame the drivers either. JUST A BAD SITUATION for all. Tony gave money back and held a race. All he could do in his situation other than keep his cool.

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Vukie:
Where did I say that it was Lawrenceburg Speedway or the fan's fault? I didn't.

This is what you wrote "but Saturday was diluted. Both Powri and Badger and MSCS (Yeah its sprints but some are midget drivers too) Schedualled directly against it."

I pointed out that Powri had races on that weekend in 2008 [and partly in 2007 also], so USAC schedule races against them. So who's to blame for "Schedualled directly against it"? USAC or Powri?

The races and the tracks were hundred's miles apart and in different time zones. So what you telling me is that if USAC has midget somewhere, Powri and Badger shouldn't have a race of their own that night? Try and tell that to the members of those two clubs.

Badger has had races at Angell Park on Sunday nights for decades and when USAC had the IMW race at Kokomo that night, weren't they going against Badger?

I tried to say that in not so many words. Its ok for ARDC and Powri to schedual against each other. Im just hoping that in the future the organizations can work together to both grow involvment and fan base. The Chili bowl has no competition. Its become a event (EVENT being high priced with a good payout for front runners) I believe there is room for several EVENTS over years time. Midget week being one, Gold Cup being another, Could be a good Novemeber week out in Cali as well.

Chuck

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This thread began as a Kevin Miller spin-off of "the Duke's" thread entitled " Pavement Sprints and Midgets ".
Miller stepped in to " give you guys the facts " ( re: post #1 , sentence #1 ) and who would have thought you'd still be debating all of this 150-plus posts later ?

We're approaching 53 hours of posting in this thread and USAC probably hasn't seen anything yet that they didn't already know , care to fix , or know how to fix as the " fixes " all come with great difficulty and a variety of hurdles to overcome , that frankly , won't be overcome. In some things the damage has long been done with much of it irreversible.

The Duke is an easy target with spelling , grammar , punctuation , stuck cap-locks and all the rest. None of this should be the focus.
Duke is passionate in his beliefs and rightfully so. His knowledge of the sport comes from real life experiences that far exceeds that of any twenty-year-old fan.
It is just ridiculous to think otherwise. He competed in an era that we all appreciate and remember as being superior in any number of ways as compared to the product today.

Anyone who follows this sport can easily see problems that they would fix if they could. The problems and fixes will vary as everything is perception. The problems are well documented here in great detail.
Again , I would say " does anyone really believe that USAC has learned anything that they didn't already know ? ". I don't think so ... and because all of this has been going on for so long they probably don't see a cure either !

Pavement racing , both Sprint and Midget is in trouble , and probably won't exist in any substantial form five years from now.
And this brings us back to " the Duke " and his expressions of the past ... I do understand , Duke.
It is far more satisfying to take a look back when what's up ahead appears so void of anything we recognize.
The Duke knows that it didn't have to be this way ...:34;


:19:

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Rob,

One chassis on dirt and pavement is the biggest thing needed to save combination dirt and pavement series'. Now, there are plenty more dirt midgets and sprint cars in this world then there are pavement cars so I would write the rules to benefit the dirt cars.

How do you police one chassis on dirt and pavement? You actually write a rule book and enforce it. Merely saying this cannot be policed is an excuse not a reason. The Legend Car series' were successful at this, but they went to the extreme with their rules and created a monopoly for certain parts suppliers, so I would not go that far. Plus their cars are junk and their tires are harder then any tire on the planet so the racing is terrible on dirt.

What is the engine plate to rear axle on the typical dirt sprint car or midget? I'll bet this doesn't vary more than 2" from manufacturer to manufacturer on dirt. So, allow 2" to move but thats it. Set a wheelbase limit that isn't 10" from shortest to longest and you have that problem solved. For the midgets I would recommend a low of 71" and a high of 73". This doesn't hurt anyone because all the "big" teams already have dirt cars. Yes, some guys who have strictly pavement cars will have to buy new cars, but it is a small price to pay now to survive in the future. Set the rules so the engine must be on the centerline of the chassis. In the midgets maybe, and this is a big maybe, require the engine sit straight up and down. This is easily done with a motor plate. That isn't much of an investment at all. Also, as I said in my previous post make the same offset rule on dirt and pavement so the same rear axle can be run on both surfaces. Also, one important thing would be a seat height rule so nobody is lowering the driver from dirt to pavement. Also, requiring six pin hubs on the front since they are needed on the high speed pavement tracks is necessary. No "special" car will be needed. All current dirt cars would be legal.

This is just a start. Over the years small changes will be needed to gradually perfect this. As things come up to challenge the intent of going to a one car on pavement and dirt philosophy, USAC will need to step up to the plate and make rules. This will be necessary even if it has to be made mid-season. As I have stated before USAC is the worst sanctioning body in the world when it comes to enforcing their own rules. Just look at their midget engine rules and you can see this. The Esslinger XT isn't even legal per their rule book but it is allowed to run. (ie "418, B. 3. Four cylinder in line, aluminum block and head,” Pinto” engine. Alteration of the basic design of the head or block is prohibited."). How many cam towers does the "basic design" have in it? I'll bet it isn't as many as the newest Esslinger head. Also, does the "basic design" have the headers coming out of the left side of the head?? This is not an attack on those who have purchased Esslinger engines but merely to show that USAC does a poor job of enforcing rules or changing them when it is necessary.

As far as tires go Hoosier is not the evil empire like most on here want to make them out to be. However, I do not like monopolies and allowing tire manufacturers to submit two tires that durometer at or above a certain point each year is more than reasonable. Then write the rule to state that X and Y Hoosier and X and Y American Racer for instance are legal for 2010. Monopoly is over with and people have choice again. As you have said heat cycles are the problem so on pavement make a one set rule. These get stamped when you go out for the first "sanctioned" practice session and thats what you run all night. The only exception might be the left rear so you can change stagger. As for the local guys stepping up and buying tires, in some cases don't guys do that now? I think the UMARA midget guys used to or do have to buy Hoosiers to run with USAC.

USAC is going to have to be the one to make these changes especially in the midget division. All the other midget clubs just follow whatever USAC does so they need to step up and take the reigns to save it. When it comes to sprint cars USAC is not king and we all know that. However, I am sure that when it comes to dirt cars they are not that different manufacturer to manufacturer on the engine plate to rear axle measurements.

Originally Posted by Racerrob:
I have been sitting on the sidelines on this one waiting to see where this would go. If I am not mistaken, the proposals to save USAC, the car owners and the entire sprint car way of life boils down to: One chassis for pavement and dirt, limit tires/wheel width to make horsepower a non-issue, have a tire company invent a super tire that never wears out and never slows down, increase purses so that racers can afford to race, race closer to home so that travel expenses can be reduced and get TV coverage to make everything better.

Now I hate to be the wet blanket here but there are always unintended consequences to these proposals and if it were really easy to implement them don’t you think they would have made the move by now?

Let’s talk one chassis for pavement and dirt; How do you police that? I saw on an earlier post that there would be a limit as to the engine set back, offset and wheelbase. What happens when a local (which we rely on heavily at the dirt tracks) wants to run USAC. Do they have to buy a special car that conforms to USAC specs? Do we all run dirt chassis on pavement? What dirt wheelbase/engine set back? Do locals that have a slightly different car get to run?

Same for the tire/wheel rule; Do you think local racers on a limited budget will step up and buy new wheels and a spec tires to run just the USAC shows? If you could get the WoO, All-Stars, MSCS and whatever other sanctions together and agree to limit the RR this would work. Without it this is a pipe dream. The reason USAC went to 410 was because it became the standard for sprint cars by the WoO and local tracks. USAC made the switch so that more cars could run with them not as the leader of a larger CID movement.

Now on to the tires. Yes they are a MAJOR expense for both large and small teams. I have begged for a one set limit for over 1 year and it has gone nowhere. We run 2 sets typically for each racing night because every time the tire undergoes a heat cycle (run on the track) it slows down a little. Not wears out, but slows down. Therefore if my car is going to have a shot at winning I have to bolt on new tires each time my competition does. If we all have only one set then there is no competitive disadvantage.

Before we hear from Don Moore, hard tires are not the answer either because they slow down just as much if not more. They also lack grip which means the cars will slide more in the corners. The reason there is not more passing on pavement is generally the grove is narrow and the drivers (well most anyway) don’t want to slide into another car while attempting to pass. Most of them have learned that open wheel to wheel contact is not good for their health or the car’s longevity especially on pavement.

I know that Hoosier contributes to the point fund for each tire sold. It is here that USAC can be of the biggest help to the participant by negotiating hard with ALL the tire manufacturers to obtain the best price and most money for the point fund. There should be full open disclosure of each bid to the competitors and the contract should be rebid each winter. I don’t care which brand wins the bid if everyone has to run the same tire.

Now I have been very outspoken in the past when a promoter makes a killing on a USAC race via the back gate. I also know that promoters don’t always pack the stands and they have expenses as well. Too many promoters fail to promote nowadays. I would like to see a return to the days of a percentage of the gate against a guaranteed minimum purse Part of the sanction fee paid to USAC would be set aside for track specific marketing. Additionally the promoters would be required to spend a certain amount advertising the USAC race in the local media. USAC could leverage a revamped marketing department to helping the promoter with advertising copy and media buys. This would make USAC, the participants AND the promoter partners in putting on a quality product and producing a profit for ALL.

As far as racing closer to home/on more weekends, I am all for that. I burn EVERY vacation day, personal day and sick day that I get at the bank to attend all the races on the USAC schedule. My wife is very upset that I have not gone on vacation with her and the kids in 4 years. Most of our past vacations centered around a race somewhere that I left for two days early or stayed after for a couple of days. But realize that when you limit the series to a local base you also limit your ability to attract national sponsors for the teams, the events and the all important television.

In conclusion, I think we all recognize there is a problem. But beware of some of the “easy” fixes proposed because they may create more problems than they solve. Most of you probably remember the push to put starters on midgets since that would make the series more fan and TV friendly. Sounded like a good idea and it had a noble purpose but it almost killed the series. We don’t need to go down that path again.

The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not necessarially reflect the opinions of my team or sponsors.

Rob Hoffman

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Well said pgray^^

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

I do think some things have improved dirt wise. Haven't attended a Pavement event and at that only two were USAC in about five years for Border wars.

Increasing the car count to make the heats and removing that overpacked 8 lap race for two possitions is a good thing.

Rob Klepper amazes me with his excitement level, information, Lineup calling and helping make stars of good or great
racers with Self Proven names and names given by him or others to drivers. THE MADMAN! The ROCKET, COOOOOOOOOOONS JR ect. He almost always packs everything possible into one of his PA deals and to be honest a USAC SHOW including some future events! WITHOUT HIM is almost NOT USAC at this point. He helps elevate it to event status with his vocal prowess

Cars used to have names, Lasted five or so years. The Delrose special, The Cissy Smith special. Even if a fan didn't know who was driving for the night, They recognized the car. There are still some highly recognizable cars but many times thats not the same exact car that finishes the season. Why name a car thats gonna be trashed in a dozen races or so?

You take a race fan or someone who's never been to a sprint car race and usually their reaction is HOLY BLEEP! THE PROBLEM IS GETTING THEM THERE and as been statted over and over. KEEPING THEM.

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

One thing I can think oif and this is in regards to the Series as a whole just not pavement cars is to expand the USAC badge. There are a few of people my geneneration and older, I am 34, who knew what the USAC badge meant. Esp in the Southern states.

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Random Observations -

Am I the only one is still finds it amazing that the leadership of a major sanctioning body posts on a public site like this? If nothing else, compared to previous leaderships it's refreshing to see Mr. Miller stand there with his hands on his hips letting everyone kick him in the ding-ding.

All you have to do is read these posts to know that fixing this problem won't come painlessly. Whatever direction is taken, multiple people will be pissed. The current leadership had the balls to tell the SC owners that they now owned $100k turds so I don't think that making the right decision at the expense of pissing people off will be an issue.

USAC and ********/influence. The problems with the pavement series came about much more recently than there have been USAC ********/influence. Removing the ******** would be harder than solving the pavement issue. Spend your energies wisely and just go around the ********.

Outside of European football/soccer fans, I can't think of a group more passionate about their sport than racing people. Perhaps there is something that can be learned from that.

While I don't like seeing fast timers diddle around in heat races knowing they just need to transfer out of the B to get their time back, tinkering with the race format isn't gonna do diddly squat in this current problem. For that matter, dragging out the good old days or mistakes of the past will do less than diddly squat.

Speaking of the past, TV is a pipe dream. WoO almost (and perhaps still might) ran themselves out of money doing time-buys. What exactly would we do differently to turn that around? At best, it's an extremely expensive long term investment to make it something. Looking though these posts I can see that we're obviously very patient people so perhaps taking years to build a TV base is the way to go. Pay-per-view events like the Chili Bowl are the only ones I see having any success in the short term. How do you do that x 30 or so events? Internet TV looks good but is a long ways away. However I this is an area that we should be invested in.

I've always been intrigued by the stadium motocross series. I worked for Yamaha motocross years ago and was part of that circus. I've always wondered why some of the same principles couldn't be applied to some open wheel special events. If you note, they always run monster trucks or something the week before/after the supercross races. They do that because it lowers the cost of converting the stadium. Why not piggyback on that? I acknowledge it would be a hella big risk but you possibly could hit a 11 run home run as well. How many of you can honestly say you've heard of the AMA until Supercross?

One of the problems with the stadium racing idea is manufacturers. We don't have any and they do. The big 3 motorcycle companies poured millions into supercross racing. Interesting thing about the bikes was that the rules are written such that the bikes are not all that much removed from stock. Chassis geometries, materials, etc can't be modified from stock. Yes, the motors and shocks are modified but are based upon stock items. I was surprised that even as they poured millions into the sport, they weren't trying to sneak exotic materials into the bikes. Even if nothing comes of it, studying the supercross series for ideas couldn't hurt.

I agree with the single car for dirt/pavement concept. If you get it right, you still will have room for people to innovate. Crazy thought - You could also consider "penalizing" fast cars with weight like they do in sports car racing to equalize the BMWs vs the Acuras. I'm sure a few people might get a kick out of seeing Bob East turn colors like a chameleon when he's told that the Beasts need to carry 50lbs extra.

I also agree that the car builders shouldn't have too much influence on drawing up the rules. Or you might as well let the prisoners build the prison walls. But you do need people with technical expertise to get it right.

I also agree that USAC rule application has been spotty and/or ill-directed at times. If you go the single car route, you've got to fix the rule application part or it won't work.

While it's really not part of the discussion here, Indiana Sprint Week is one of the most amazing events of any type in this county. Don't f it up.

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Paul Gray you have made another very articulate post, very refreshing !!

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Originally Posted by RichC:
Random Observations -

While it's really not part of the discussion here, Indiana Sprint Week is one of the most amazing events of any type in this county. Don't f it up.

Isn't that the truth. Then I would have to go back to spending my vacation on the beach in Mexico. . . .

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Originally Posted by rocket5612:
Rob,

One chassis on dirt and pavement is the biggest thing needed to save combination dirt and pavement series'. Now, there are plenty more dirt midgets and sprint cars in this world then there are pavement cars so I would write the rules to benefit the dirt cars.

How do you police one chassis on dirt and pavement? You actually write a rule book and enforce it. Merely saying this cannot be policed is an excuse not a reason. The Legend Car series' were successful at this, but they went to the extreme with their rules and created a monopoly for certain parts suppliers, so I would not go that far. Plus their cars are junk and their tires are harder then any tire on the planet so the racing is terrible on dirt.

What is the engine plate to rear axle on the typical dirt sprint car or midget? I'll bet this doesn't vary more than 2" from manufacturer to manufacturer on dirt. So, allow 2" to move but thats it. Set a wheelbase limit that isn't 10" from shortest to longest and you have that problem solved. For the midgets I would recommend a low of 71" and a high of 73". This doesn't hurt anyone because all the "big" teams already have dirt cars. Yes, some guys who have strictly pavement cars will have to buy new cars, but it is a small price to pay now to survive in the future. Set the rules so the engine must be on the centerline of the chassis. In the midgets maybe, and this is a big maybe, require the engine sit straight up and down. This is easily done with a motor plate. That isn't much of an investment at all. Also, as I said in my previous post make the same offset rule on dirt and pavement so the same rear axle can be run on both surfaces. Also, one important thing would be a seat height rule so nobody is lowering the driver from dirt to pavement. Also, requiring six pin hubs on the front since they are needed on the high speed pavement tracks is necessary. No "special" car will be needed. All current dirt cars would be legal.

USAC is going to have to be the one to make these changes especially in the midget division. All the other midget clubs just follow whatever USAC does so they need to step up and take the reigns to save it. When it comes to sprint cars USAC is not king and we all know that. However, I am sure that when it comes to dirt cars they are not that different manufacturer to manufacturer on the engine plate to rear axle measurements.

I believe that the cure will prove terminal for pavement racing and severely damage dirt racing. You are correct in your assessment that dirt cars engine to rear axle centerline measurements vary about 2”, usually in the 39” to 41” range. Beast pavement car is around 46.5” so all existing Beast cars will be junk (see new generation SC series). I believe the current wheelbase limits are 84” to 90” so that is already in the rules and enforced. Will you set a crankshaft centerline height (minimum and maximum)? I have seen dirt cars with a 7” to a 9” centerline height and I believe the Beast is 6”.

The majority of the cars at the pavement tracks are there because they are chasing National Championship points. These teams will most likely invest in the combo car idea and return next year. There are a few car owners that race ONLY pavement. I don’t believe they will invest in a new car (again see new generation SC car series). Even when USAC brought back the old style SC car the series will take years to recover from the experiment.

By the way, do you remember the reasons why USAC went to the new generation car? There weren’t enough tracks willing to host SC races and they needed a new car to race on the 1.5 mile tracks that have become a NASCAR standard. It was intended to ensure the long term viability of the series. How’s that working out for them? They alienated the majority of the SC owners by making their existing pavement cars obsolete and then alienated the New Generation SC owners by mothballing their investment. The old cars owners are still smarting from the original shot to the groin and have not returned. (our car will probably not race again.

Now as you stated the combo car will need six pin hubs on the front for the high speed pavement tracks so this I am assuming will be a required for the dirt tracks as well since the ultimate goal is to reduce car ownership costs and we don’t want separate running gear for dirt and pavement. So now the locals that run Bloomington, Gas City, Lawrenceburg, Haubstadt, etc. on a weekly basis will be forced to buy six pin hubs and wheels or skip the USAC sanctioned shows. Car counts went down when a HANS was required, many citing the cost to purchase as the reason, but at least this was for a safety device. That being the case, do you believe the locals will gladly fork over $1,000 plus just so they can be USAC legal? Maybe some of the guys in Indiana will indeed make the conversion but what about when we travel to PA or IA? Since we only have 15 to 20 cars that travel USAC will once again become a regional series.

Now the six pin hubs we run on pavement are not stock six pin hubs and spindles. They are special made with extra material in critical places. Do you think the well funded teams will buy multiple sets, lightweight for dirt and heavy duty for pavement? What will your offset rules be? Do you know that we are currently allowed more offset on dirt than pavement? Will we have to run 2 front brakes on dirt as well as pavement? Will we have to run steel rotors or can we run aluminum? If you say 2 front brakes of steel so that they can be used on pavement and dirt you have just lost additional local car support. Otherwise it sounds to me like we will need two sets of front axles, one for dirt and one for pavement.

How about shocks? I guarantee you that what I run on pavement and dirt are light years apart.

Believe it or not, the rear ends are interchangeable now. Our motors are interchangeable now. Someone suggested that you should have the same fuel cell dirt and pavement and enforce the rule with a minimum gallon specification. That’s fine but we probably just lost some more local support.

So if we write the rules to minimize the damage to the dirt series what will I need to do to convert my car from dirt car to pavement?

 Change front axle assembly complete with Hubs, Spindles and Brakes
 Change Front Radius Rods (to maximize advantage under rules)
 Change Shocks to pavement shocks
 Change braking system to account for additional volume of pavement brakes.
 Move motor plate or rear links to take advantage of 2” to axle Centerline allowed in rulebook.
 Move motor plate down to lowest allowed measurement.
 Change driveline due to motor plate/rear links change
 Change tires and wheels
 Change to heavy duty steering gear (dirt steering gears will NOT work at Winchester)
 Change pitman arm and drag link and tie rod to heavy duty for pavement

The above list is off the top of my head. When you look at the amount of increased work for the teams (considerable) and the cost savings (frame and body since almost everything else will be changed) does this really make sense?

Like Duke I have also been around a while. In 1988 I converted a standard Gambler dirt car to run on the pavement utilizing many of the items listed above. We ran 2nd and 3rd at the two races we entered at IRP which were telecast on Thursday Night Thunder. This was Kevin “Pup” Huntley’s 1st and 2nd time ever on pavement. I found out through that experience that it was much easier to build a pavement chassis instead of trying to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear. The result was the Buick V-6 which Rich Vogler drove to the championship in 1989.

I am all about cost savings and the long term viability of the sport on both dirt and pavement. But unless you can demonstrate how the rules could be written to not penalize the USAC or local teams on dirt while allowing safety and cost savings on pavement you are not living in the real world.

Rob Hoffman

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

So what you are telling me is we should protect the 12 pavement beast sprint cars that are left and just drop pavement from the championship? Either way they are done racing in USAC anyway aren't they? How many dirt cars are there? Plenty more of them then there are pavement cars. I stated in my post some people will have to buy new cars but asking 12(of which most of those 12 I'm sure already have dirt cars) people to change is not asking that much.

Comparing this to the new Silver Crown box is not fair. First off there were plenty more pavement Silver Crown cars then there are pavement Sprint Cars now. That deal should have never happened.

Yes people will change parts from dirt to pavement, but they won't have to have an entirely different car. Depending on how you write the rules you can narrow this down to minimize it. I'm all for setting an engine height rule. Also the differences won't be so vast that it will keep a guy from coming to the track. Right now nobody in their right mind would even attempt to bring a dirt car to a pavement race. Making the suggested changes will narrow the gap so much, in my opinion, that changing all those parts won't matter that much.

When you guys travel to PA and IA do you REALLY get that many locals that run with you? Here are the qualifying results from Mercer, PA. How many of these guys are local guys from PA that took their wings off to run? And look only 20 cars?? Maybe we shouldn't even be talking about making a combo car and start talking about other rules to cut costs to get more then 20 cars when tavelling more than 90 miles outside Indiana.

1. Damion Gardner, 71, DG-16.598; 2. Tracy Hines, 21, Stewart-16.660; 3. Cole Whitt, 67k, Kunz-16.703; 4. Levi Jones, 20, Stewart-16.774; 5. Darren Hagen, 67, Kunz-16.807; 6. Jesse Hockett, 13, VKCC-16.830; 7. Scotty Weir, 5, Baldwin-16.878; 8. Dave Darland, 2B, RWB-16.898; 9. Chris Windom, 17, Windom-16.906; 10. Jerry Coons Jr., 69, Dynamics-16.921; 11. Bud Kaeding, 29, BK-17.011; 12. Brad Sweet, 9, Kahne/Curb-17.053; 13. Andy Priest, 21x, Priest-17.107; 14. Henry Clarke, 67x, Kunz-17.272; 15. Arnie Kent, 18, Kent-17.451; 16. Charlie Holben, 42, Holben-17.591; 17. Scott Bonnell, 3B, Bonnell-17.785; 18. Mike Miller, 57B, Burkey-17.854; 19. Scott Priester, 11, Priester-18.031; 20. Andy Korte, 1J, Triple Crown-18.258.

Originally Posted by Racerrob:
I believe that the cure will prove terminal for pavement racing and severely damage dirt racing. You are correct in your assessment that dirt cars engine to rear axle centerline measurements vary about 2”, usually in the 39” to 41” range. Beast pavement car is around 46.5” so all existing Beast cars will be junk (see new generation SC series). I believe the current wheelbase limits are 84” to 90” so that is already in the rules and enforced. Will you set a crankshaft centerline height (minimum and maximum)? I have seen dirt cars with a 7” to a 9” centerline height and I believe the Beast is 6”.

The majority of the cars at the pavement tracks are there because they are chasing National Championship points. These teams will most likely invest in the combo car idea and return next year. There are a few car owners that race ONLY pavement. I don’t believe they will invest in a new car (again see new generation SC car series). Even when USAC brought back the old style SC car the series will take years to recover from the experiment.

By the way, do you remember the reasons why USAC went to the new generation car? There weren’t enough tracks willing to host SC races and they needed a new car to race on the 1.5 mile tracks that have become a NASCAR standard. It was intended to ensure the long term viability of the series. How’s that working out for them? They alienated the majority of the SC owners by making their existing pavement cars obsolete and then alienated the New Generation SC owners by mothballing their investment. The old cars owners are still smarting from the original shot to the groin and have not returned. (our car will probably not race again.

Now as you stated the combo car will need six pin hubs on the front for the high speed pavement tracks so this I am assuming will be a required for the dirt tracks as well since the ultimate goal is to reduce car ownership costs and we don’t want separate running gear for dirt and pavement. So now the locals that run Bloomington, Gas City, Lawrenceburg, Haubstadt, etc. on a weekly basis will be forced to buy six pin hubs and wheels or skip the USAC sanctioned shows. Car counts went down when a HANS was required, many citing the cost to purchase as the reason, but at least this was for a safety device. That being the case, do you believe the locals will gladly fork over $1,000 plus just so they can be USAC legal? Maybe some of the guys in Indiana will indeed make the conversion but what about when we travel to PA or IA? Since we only have 15 to 20 cars that travel USAC will once again become a regional series.

Now the six pin hubs we run on pavement are not stock six pin hubs and spindles. They are special made with extra material in critical places. Do you think the well funded teams will buy multiple sets, lightweight for dirt and heavy duty for pavement? What will your offset rules be? Do you know that we are currently allowed more offset on dirt than pavement? Will we have to run 2 front brakes on dirt as well as pavement? Will we have to run steel rotors or can we run aluminum? If you say 2 front brakes of steel so that they can be used on pavement and dirt you have just lost additional local car support. Otherwise it sounds to me like we will need two sets of front axles, one for dirt and one for pavement.

How about shocks? I guarantee you that what I run on pavement and dirt are light years apart.

Believe it or not, the rear ends are interchangeable now. Our motors are interchangeable now. Someone suggested that you should have the same fuel cell dirt and pavement and enforce the rule with a minimum gallon specification. That’s fine but we probably just lost some more local support.

So if we write the rules to minimize the damage to the dirt series what will I need to do to convert my car from dirt car to pavement?

 Change front axle assembly complete with Hubs, Spindles and Brakes
 Change Front Radius Rods (to maximize advantage under rules)
 Change Shocks to pavement shocks
 Change braking system to account for additional volume of pavement brakes.
 Move motor plate or rear links to take advantage of 2” to axle Centerline allowed in rulebook.
 Move motor plate down to lowest allowed measurement.
 Change driveline due to motor plate/rear links change
 Change tires and wheels
 Change to heavy duty steering gear (dirt steering gears will NOT work at Winchester)
 Change pitman arm and drag link and tie rod to heavy duty for pavement

The above list is off the top of my head. When you look at the amount of increased work for the teams (considerable) and the cost savings (frame and body since almost everything else will be changed) does this really make sense?

Like Duke I have also been around a while. In 1988 I converted a standard Gambler dirt car to run on the pavement utilizing many of the items listed above. We ran 2nd and 3rd at the two races we entered at IRP which were telecast on Thursday Night Thunder. This was Kevin “Pup” Huntley’s 1st and 2nd time ever on pavement. I found out through that experience that it was much easier to build a pavement chassis instead of trying to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear. The result was the Buick V-6 which Rich Vogler drove to the championship in 1989.

I am all about cost savings and the long term viability of the sport on both dirt and pavement. But unless you can demonstrate how the rules could be written to not penalize the USAC or local teams on dirt while allowing safety and cost savings on pavement you are not living in the real world.

Rob Hoffman

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

I don't know why Rob even bothers to post here, although I am glad he does :8:

It appears to me the only way to have a combo car is if it were to be a spec car.

I don't want a spec car!!!

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

The problem is not the lack of cars because there are many, many pavement cars sitting in shops. The trick is to make it possible for them to see their way out to the tracks again.

If any discussions USAC has don't include addressing the tire situation, then unless the start money is substationally raised, it isn't worth discussing.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I respect Hoosiers right to make money, but I don't respect how USAC hasn't tried to protect the racers interest. You can take the 20-60 sets of tires that are sold for each race and release them on the track, but if they aren't attached to cars then they are useless. No one in the stands comes to watch the tires, they come for the drivers and then the cars.

I just feel that instead of getting in bed with Hoosier, they need to make sure there isn't another marketing partner out there who can not only provide tires but help promote the sport. Goodyear,Firestone/Bridgestone,Yokohoma etc.... someone with a national campaign that could help market the sport.

By the way....... Kevin; you and I both know that USAC could never push HOSS or AVSS out of the picture unless you used your leverage with Hoosier. Why would a promoter pay the extra money for a USAC wing show when they can get the others much cheaper and why would the cars come out to run wings with a lowered purse?

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

I would like to thank Rob Hoffman for posting here....your posts are really informative on what teams have to deal with.

I would like to thank Kevin Miller for posting here also..I wish you guys the best of luck on making pavement racing better..I love the Winchester, Salem...and even back to New Bremen pavement races..

One thing I have learned from promoting asphalt at the Speedrome...The USAC regional and my Rumbleseries do not hurt each other...In fact..if we work together...we can only lift all car counts when it comes to pavement midgets. We are not a threat to each other..And it is great talking to Don Kenyon and Eric Bunn..

Kalamazoo...it sounds like the racing was great..If it was't so expensive to buy the tires to keep up with the well funded teams..it would be a fine car count..imagine 30 sprinters there....By the way...HOSS/AVSS already have these better tire rules, and their shows are great.

I will also tell you..that most of the controversial posters here...LOVE THE SPORT (as we all do)...plus..they spice this site up.

Thanks Duke for caring about racing.

Now after business is taken care of...lets have some fun at the races!

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

I truly fear that nothing can be done to save USAC pavement racing.

A promoter needs more cars to be able to afford to pay the purse and the sanctioning fee. Car owners need to be paid more money to be able to afford to pay the expenses associated with fielding a pavement car. Without more cars, the promoter can't pay more. I'm not even mentioning that fantasy of getting sponsorship to pay the bills. That's a very hard sell for sprints and midgets in the best economy.

When promoters book a USAC pavement race, or any race, and take in insufficient revenues to pay the bills, they seek other options. Some pack on extra divisions the next time, some decide not to book USAC again. USAC brought only 20 cars to Iowa Speedway. It had only 22 at Knoxville. Hawkeye Downs will gladly lease their track so sprint cars can race there, but they are not taking on that financial risk again on their own. As far as dirt, how were the car counts for the Pennsy swing?

We just might have reached the point of no return.

What can we do to save it?

1. Swallow our pride and ego.
2. Accept a smaller profit margin for the time being. (Many race promoters probably already are.)
3. Stop living in the past. (TV royalties for USAC sprint and midget racing on ESPN are gone and are never coming back.)
4. Reduce the cost of competing. This might mean opening the tire rule to any manufacturer that contributes a per-tire fee to the point fund, or just opening the tire rule to any manufacturer. This might hurt the points fund for the time being but if it brings in more competitors and encourages more promoters to book USAC pavement races, it would be a small price to pay. Having more races would encourage more potential car owners to make the investment.
5. Pay tow money, and not to just the regulars like some sanctions do.
6. Pray that God wants USAC pavement racing to continue. It might need his divine intervention to save it.

Jim Morrison
Editor
Hawkeye Racing News

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Originally Posted by RichC:
Random Observations -
Outside of European football/soccer fans, I can't think of a group more passionate about their sport than racing people. Perhaps there is something that can be learned from that.

Does that make some of us "sprint car hooligans" :3: just joking- Thanks for your thoughts Rich


Rob H. has it right, a combo car would only kill the series not help preserve it. If USAC would mandate the car, then the (old) series would be picked up by someone else and USAC's car count would just be lower and sprint car racing would be all the more fragmented once more.

A spec car wouldn't fair much better. ie IROC...

Thank you for reading my opinions and rest assured I have enjoyed reading the prior 150 posts.
We are pulling into RIR now, everyone have a nice safe weeekend and God bless.

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

[QUOTE=RichC;113635]Random Observations -

"I've always been intrigued by the stadium motocross series. I worked for Yamaha motocross years ago and was part of that circus. I've always wondered why some of the same principles couldn't be applied to some open wheel special events. If you note, they always run monster trucks or something the week before/after the supercross races. They do that because it lowers the cost of converting the stadium. Why not piggyback on that? I acknowledge it would be a hella big risk but you possibly could hit a 11 run home run as well. How many of you can honestly say you've heard of the AMA until Supercross?"

If you were the Open Wheel Stadium Czar, what would you run,
Sprints, Midgets, or Both?

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

I am trying to understand what the $ difference in car owner expenses are between running USAC dirt and pavement events. It seems that there are quite a few people that can afford to run dirt so either there must be a big cost difference or do more people just have little to no interest in running pavement.

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Pavement tires and neck restraints are both costly, but I feel that we are missing another point. Experience.
A guy can learn on dirt locally. IE Kokomo, Gas City, Bloomington, then go to USAC or Eldora. We have run winged pavement for years, but never topless. To go USAC, we would take off the wings and go to Winchester or Toledo without ever racing non wing. Some independent non wing races would be helpful. I guess we could try the little 500 with no experience!

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

I have read all 150+ replies to the original question and there are some great ideas. The combo thing could work if the rules were written right and enforced properly you could increase car counts. But as Leader's Edge states there is not a shortage of pavement cars out there, but only the ones chasing points can afford the tire bills. To be honest I doubt many can afford the tire bills but swallow it just to be able to compete.

Having built and raced dirt and pavement sprintcars for Dynamite Race Cars the only major difference between dirt and pavement is the tire bill. The cost between putting together a dirt or pavement car is minimal (few thousand ie, shocks, brake system etc.). When we ran with HOSS/AVSS it was pretty easy to set up a tire rotation system to maximize the use of your tires without losing an advantage. They would stamp the RR tire as you go out for qualifying and that is the tire you had to run for the feature. You could do this for the RF,LF also and leave the LR open for stagger purposes. When we ran with USAC we picked up our pace every time out due to chassis adjustments but everyone else was too but also picking up even more time due to putting new rubber on evry time out. If you did the stamping you would only need 2-3 tires a night instead of 2-3 sets a night thus greatly reducing the cost to compete.

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Jim, ain't it hot in that Santa suit? I know it is here, I went to whiz a while ago, and scaulded myself! Bob

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Bob,
Ever heard of a cool suit. Santa was up on that decades before racers. They probably thought WWSD (What Would Santa Do?) when they developed it for racing.
lololol
Jim

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

OK, alotta you guys got money,sure you dress down at the track,but you got coin....Look you know your investments are gonna go to heck,so do the best thing...Build a War chest for USAC...half a billion dollars and we'll have races on every form of communications possible...worst case scenerio..it'll turn into a ponzi scheme..and devour itself...but it would be a hell of a ride wouldn't it

Re: The Rumor Mill
 

Thanks for the opportunity Kevin - No Wings! :27: