Re: Tire Dopers
 

Let me put myself in the shoes of the Tire Doping Cops. My job is to enforce the rules and bust the culprits.

When teams go to the track, they have to purchase their RR tires there. The tires are subsequently marked and mounted. Seems simple. No time to dope.

Oh, wait.... for the weekly races at tracks, no one (Hoosier, American Racer, Goodyear) are there to mount tires. My plan holds no water. Dope away, men!

But for USAC races..... WoO races.... All Star races....

Originally Posted by Stevensville Mike:
Let me put myself in the shoes of the Tire Doping Cops. My job is to enforce the rules and bust the culprits.

When teams go to the track, they have to purchase their RR tires there. The tires are subsequently marked and mounted. Seems simple. No time to dope.

Oh, wait.... for the weekly races at tracks, no one (Hoosier, American Racer, Goodyear) are there to mount tires. My plan holds no water. Dope away, men!

But for USAC races..... WoO races.... All Star races....

Forcing teams to buy tires at the track the day of the race eliminates all the small teams like mine who don't always buy new every night. I raced for 10 years on dirt and hardly had new tires. No I'm not going to win a usac race, but a new tires is the difference between me going and me staying home. Also, new tires isn't the reason why I'm not winning a usac race anyway. Even my current pavement sprintcar program doesn't have the budget to buy new every night.
Nick Landon

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Folks,

I should probably know the answer to the following question but, since I make every attempt to abide by all rules stated by the sanctioning body, I don't know. What is the cost to dope a tire? If the expense is minimal it seems to me the cost of enforcing the rule may outweigh the doping cost. If the doping does, indeed, change the track surface then that may be another consideration but I am having a difficult time understanding that part of the equation. Maybe someone can explain that, as well.

I will also say that I am a fan of using the same tire in your feature that is used for qualifying. May deter some of the doping.

Tim Simmons

So, that's what it has come down to, that's what people do to win 🏆? I can say this, it's not in my bones, but I'm not in it anymore, but it also makes watching it all the less appealing, nascar has a bigger problem on their hands, and they are trying to make the monetary fines high enough to stop any infraction, they have already fined Rouse and company enough to stop them in their tracks,, for what, a poorly designed race car, Jack didn't design? I still have a lot of personal friends involved with it, and I don't know how much longer they can take it, Nascar is the only winner so far, it can only get worse. Don't let that happen to the best racing ever created. Open Wheel Racing!!!!

Originally Posted by Tim:
Folks,

I should probably know the answer to the following question but, since I make every attempt to abide by all rules stated by the sanctioning body, I don't know. What is the cost to dope a tire? If the expense is minimal it seems to me the cost of enforcing the rule may outweigh the doping cost. If the doping does, indeed, change the track surface then that may be another consideration but I am having a difficult time understanding that part of the equation. Maybe someone can explain that, as well.

I will also say that I am a fan of using the same tire in your feature that is used for qualifying. May deter some of the doping.

Tim Simmons

Tim, tire prep the go karts use is around $23 a quart.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Do the karters still call it "painting the tires" we used to use a paint brush to apply the chemical, I couldn't tell you what the chemical was it was a friends kart and I was lucky enough to get to race it? Would sprint car tires require more than a quart of tire conditioner, how long would a quart last?

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Originally Posted by sw1911:
To a casual fan, this whole melodrama makes no fuggin sense. Let me ask a couple naive questions please. First, why do we need any tire rules? Is it because they take some of the edge off the richer teams? Second, let's assume someone justifies tire rules. Why do we care what the hell what somebody does to their tires? Once again, is it because the richer teams can afford more exotic doping? Third, the reason we enjoy our standard of living under a constitutional republic is, in a word, competition under capitalism. Why is competition not allowed in the sale of sprint car tires??

Let's break this up.

1. Why do we need any tire rules? - We don't. Hoosier bought up all the tracks/series by paying them to enforce a single tire. Then subsequently raised their prices for the people buying the tires.
2. Why do we care what the hell what somebody does to their tires? - If all the big teams are doping tires and getting away with it, the locals will rarely compete. Doping tires is expensive and requires a lot of time. Most teams cannot afford it.
3. Why is competition not allowed in the sale of sprint car tires? - See #1. Hoosier bought everyone up. I hear it's like $25 per car to the track owner??

Good year is out. American Racer is almost out. Having a single tire company and allowing doping will continue to drive out most if not all of the middle and low class sprint car teams.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Originally Posted by spankytoo:
Let's break this up.

1. Why do we need any tire rules? - We don't. Hoosier bought up all the tracks/series by paying them to enforce a single tire. Then subsequently raised their prices for the people buying the tires.
2. Why do we care what the hell what somebody does to their tires? - If all the big teams are doping tires and getting away with it, the locals will rarely compete. Doping tires is expensive and requires a lot of time. Most teams cannot afford it.
3. Why is competition not allowed in the sale of sprint car tires? - See #1. Hoosier bought everyone up. I hear it's like $25 per car to the track owner??

Good year is out. American Racer is almost out. Having a single tire company and allowing doping will continue to drive out most if not all of the middle and low class sprint car teams.

Let's not forget the key point here. If #1 and #3 went away, there would be no need for #2.

I honestly don't understand how the racers, teams, tracks, and sanctioning bodies haven't figured out that Hoosier's bribe money hasn't saved anyone a dime. Maybe there's more under the counter payoffs that most don't get to see. Go back 20-30 years and Hoosier was a relatively equal competitor to McCreary (American Racer) and Goodyear. Tire doping wasn't needed, because there was a compound available from one of these companies that did what the racers and teams were wanting it to do. Hoosier actually had to try to create a superior or comparable product in order to compete in the open market. Fast forward to today and Hoosier can basically put out whatever junk spec tire they want because they have no one to compete with. Instead of spending money on developing a superior tire that teams wanted to buy, they spent that money on buying their monopoly and never improving their product. In most other businesses, the open market brings the best products to the top. In the racing tire business, you now end up with whatever Hoosier sends you because their competitors can't or won't pay enough in bribe money to show you they have a better product.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

One more naive question: What does "doping" actually do to a tire? Softer? More traction? Last longer?

It’s a really big deal in the karts and I know the kart shop by me has flavors of juice. Some to help keep them from sealing off on a dry slick track some for more heavy tracks etc. They freeze them then turn them on a lathe etc spring rate them, pretty involved process

any news on the "further analysis" usac is doing?

Originally Posted by sp6967:
any news on the "further analysis" usac is doing?

Getting my popcorn ready for it!

3 days before the Burg and all is quiet???

Originally Posted by cowboyhar69:
3 days before the Burg and all is quiet???

Crickets from USAC thus far

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Based on the wording in the press release....there will be no reprimanding decision made. USAC will call the "further testing and analysis" inconclusive and carry on.

Originally Posted by Kart#51:
Based on the wording in the press release....there will be no reprimanding decision made. USAC will call the "further testing and analysis" inconclusive and carry on.

sounds like it got swept under the rug and doping tires will be ok if your one of the chosen ones.

Originally Posted by sp6967:
sounds like it got swept under the rug and doping tires will be ok if your one of the chosen ones.

sorry, i meant to say the tests were inconclusive.

Originally Posted by sp6967:
sorry, i meant to say the tests were inconclusive.

That should say “ Test results were inconclusive after being threatened with a 100 million dollar lawsuit”.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Originally Posted by kinser:
That should say “ Test results were inconclusive after being threatened with a 100 million dollar lawsuit”.

And the BS continues...

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
And the BS continues...

Not BS necessarily,…. some strong arming going on in Indy and its just sad. Losing respect for a lot of people. Truth will come out, trust me it will……

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
And the BS continues...

That’s no BS.

Ballou on Twitter just posted something about it. He said the lab usac has sent samples too for years is the one who came back with the positive results. They used a different lab now and the results were good…I don’t know what to think. I’m a huge Justin grant fan as some of you know. Id like to think he wouldn’t do something like that. I do find it odd that 4 teams tested positive for the exact same chemical.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Results are in:

http://usacracing.com/component/k2/i...-tire-analysis

Originally Posted by wobbler:
Results are in:

http://usacracing.com/component/k2/i...-tire-analysis

That’s about a joke.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Nothing about firing the lab that allegedly reported false positives, thus potentially marring the reputation of top competitors?

And where did the extra samples come from for the other two labs??? Doubt they used the same cuts.

I guess the Outlaws test are just wrong then? Highly doubt that.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

looking real good for xtreme next year.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

So i'm curious did they get multiple tests on all the other apparent cheaters over the last couple of years or just the one? I know the answer but just find it funny that a new series comes about, several of the 'click' teams get caught cheating and now all of the sudden out of nowhere there needs to be additional testing. Seems awful unfair to all the teams that got dinged over the last several years based on one test. I will continue to go to and watch USAC races as it's the best thing around here for now but I can assure you if the Xtreme series continues their product and is around i'll be attending/watching them instead. Their overall product so far this year seemed far better to me especially on the streaming side.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Wow, 12 test by three companies and a check by a major tire manufacturer. the original tester found four teams cheated not once but twice. The two other testers found four teams DID NOT CHEAT, Not once but twice. and peer reviewed. So the positives for cheating are four and the negatives for cheating are eight

Sounds like USAC did it's job diligently to me, They got nothing to gain by suspending or fining people unless it's absolutely necessary.

So lets keep on with the USAC bashing. Id be interested to find out if the Xtreme test were from the same positives Testing company that found the USAC samples to be "DOPED" Seems to me their credibility is tarnished. Not USAC's

Xtreme can do as it likes, They found two to be cheating and delt the penalties. Totally separate event. But if the company that USAC used was used originally. That puts Their findings in question to me.

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
Wow, 12 test by three companies and a check by a major tire manufacturer. the original tester found four teams cheated not once but twice. The two other testers found four teams DID NOT CHEAT, Not once but twice. and peer reviewed. So the positives for cheating are four and the negatives for cheating are eight

Sounds like USAC did it's job diligently to me, They got nothing to gain by suspending or fining people unless it's absolutely necessary.

So lets keep on with the USAC bashing. Id be interested to find out if the Xtreme test were from the same positives Testing company that found the USAC samples to be "DOPED" Seems to me their credibility is tarnished. Not USAC's

Xtreme can do as it likes, They found two to be cheating and delt the penalties. Totally separate event. But if the company that USAC used was used originally. That puts Their findings in question to me.

They’ve got nothing to gain but a lot to lose by suspending/fining them. Everything to gain by not suspending/fining them. Sounds like they’ve already lost 3 cars for the burg because of their decision.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
Wow, 12 test by three companies and a check by a major tire manufacturer. the original tester found four teams cheated not once but twice. The two other testers found four teams DID NOT CHEAT, Not once but twice. and peer reviewed. So the positives for cheating are four and the negatives for cheating are eight

Sounds like USAC did it's job diligently to me, They got nothing to gain by suspending or fining people unless it's absolutely necessary.

So lets keep on with the USAC bashing. Id be interested to find out if the Xtreme test were from the same positives Testing company that found the USAC samples to be "DOPED" Seems to me their credibility is tarnished. Not USAC's

Xtreme can do as it likes, They found two to be cheating and delt the penalties. Totally separate event. But if the company that USAC used was used originally. That puts Their findings in question to me.

So there were 6 samples taken, 4 were positive based on the information we have been given. So what do you tell the two teams that were tested and weren't in violation with the initial testing sample with rogue testing company that matched the same "benchmark" sample? Were those samples re-tested as well by all three companies? What where their findings if they were tested, all three test negative?

Here is food for thought. They should take two samples from the tire. Clearly, there is a flaw here if they are using the same sample for all tests. This is why there is an A sample and B sample when drug testing. If the A is positive you open the B sample. If the B is positive then you are a positive test. You cant re-use the same A sample because its been contaminated. How do you validate that the samples are still valid in a case as such?

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Originally Posted by kinser:
They’ve got nothing to gain but a lot to lose by suspending/fining them. Everything to gain by not suspending/fining them. Sounds like they’ve already lost 3 cars for the burg because of their decision.

The three cars are?

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Originally Posted by Kart#51:
So there were 6 samples taken, 4 were positive based on the information we have been given. So what do you tell the two teams that were tested and weren't in violation with the initial testing sample with rogue testing company? Sorry about your luck?

Here is food for thought. Did they take two samples from the tire? Clearly, there is a flaw here if they are using the same sample for all tests. This is why there is an A sample and B sample when drug testing. If the A is positive you open the B sample, you cant re-use the same A sample because its been contaminated. Seems weird to me they sent the same sample to multiple companies.

The several times I was drug tested they took one cup of Urine and sealed it, had me initial it. Same on the hair. and the first company unless it was super strong positive as in (They were under the influence at the time of testing) didn't suspend or fire over one sample. They sent em back to get tested several times and had a record. Oh Chuck had THC in his system on three different occasions, Chuck is fired. BTW, I was never fired from a drug test. But I know a couple who were and they were users.

All Im saying if teams are cheating "Doping" it probably wasn't only once.

Im going to the Burg to watch may the best driver and team win against the best NW drivers in the land. Hope a few show up.

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
The three cars are?

Kunz, Cockrum, Dutcher, and I also just heard Garrett and Rogers.

Re: Tire Dopers
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:

All Im saying if teams are cheating "Doping" it probably wasn't only once.

Everyone does drug test different and it usually is a matter of what they are trying to accomplish and cost efficiency. I've filled a few cups for USADA. The procedure I explained is how it is done at a very high level. This keeps it from being a question of contamination and you actually get to watch the B sample opened and poured into the testing beaker. If the B sample is positive then you are suspended. You can appeal with USADA or WADA, but you wont win.

If they are doing tires, its not the first time they have done them. I'd bet one of the Mafia member's Coors Light on it.

Originally Posted by kinser:
Kunz, Cockrum, Dutcher, and I also just heard Garrett and Rogers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by racefan20:
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Heard from where. Why do we always get the I heard but not where you heard from. Makes a big difference in credibility


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Re: Tire Dopers
 

Originally Posted by racefan20:
Heard from where. Why do we always get the I heard but not where you heard from. Makes a big difference in credibility


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The proof will be in the pudding in 24 hours. If he is right, you gotta give him his credibility. If not, you can discredit him. Where his information comes from shouldn't matter...its if his information is correct.

Originally Posted by racefan20:
Heard from where. Why do we always get the I heard but not where you heard from. Makes a big difference in credibility


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

. Here you go