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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by R.Drang: The only way to slow that Toyota motor down enough to to make an Echotec competitive with it usingh lead weight you would probably need to install a trailer hitch and build a trailer. You might stuff enoiugh Gold in there but not lead. Now 50 or a 100 lbs. might help the Esslingers and other motors keep up with a Toyota. If a guy can afford to rent a Toyota he should be able to afford to travel with the traveling groups. I know it is very possible that some racer might just get a Toyota to race with the Saturday night racers, we never said you have to be smart to race but if you have your heart set on a Toyota, It sure requires a rather large investment on your part. NASCAR has been restricting cars with air flow for years. Racers have also spent millions of dollars to achieve the last ounce of power out of those restrictor engines. Horsepower is in the head we call it Volumetric Efficiency "VE". The higher the "VE" is the mower power you have on hand. The best way to control "VE" is limiting the size of hole the air travel through to get to the intake valve. The reason people install superchargers is to raise that "VE" higher than the 100% you can get using atmospheric pressure alone. Toyota"s have a higher "VE" than their competitors (more Power), There are but a very few drivers that can take advantage of that extra power. They are running up front with USAC and PowrI events right now on the bigger faster tracks. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
@ The risk of beatin a dead horse , give the stock block & head 4 valve 2.5 liter EFI engine a 50@ weight break , race em straight up against USAC or anyone else ?
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by Roy Bleckert: Won't work, Let a guy spend some money inside that 2.5 or preferable 3.0 motor and it could be very competitive even with the best of them.:15::deadhorse::) I like to think of it as stirring the pot, Roy.;) Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
You need to be careful when talking about airflow restrictors. Restrictors only limit the peak airflow. A “national engine” will not have its peak torque affected, only its peak horsepower. Peak torque happens before any restrictors would come into play. For example air restrictors on a “national engine” would not have any effect on its performance from the center of the corner to the flag stand. The engine would only be limited from the flag stand to the corner. USAC has plenty experience with this trying to equate 360’s and 410’s on pavement.
Mike |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Mike
Maybe a tec at the "IRS" could come up with a suggested size for us. In my younger days (early 70's) I helped out prepping the Edinburgh Indiana National Plymouth Trouble Shooting Champions. These kids were very good usually getting the car up and running in 30 minutes or less. They were also pretty cocky. One day I took the carburetor off made a gasket with two 1/2" holes in it and put it back in place. Well they found and fixed the usual problems and took it for the mandatory test drive. They came back from that ride and their jaws were way way down. It ran great but it would only go 25 miles per hour. Peak torque is achieved at maximum Volumetric Efficiency? That is The reason old MC Performance is building all those ram air tubes and air breathers assemblies. We can change the point that an engine achieves it's maximum "VE" by making those stacks longer or shorter. Peak Horsepower however is achieved well beyond the peak torque speed. The motor finally just falls on it's face in the case of the old 2 valve motors, now these crazy motorcycle motors just don't seem to know when to quit. They keep going usually until Something just breaks. I am not sure but I think IRS would probably want about a one inch hole? That size hole would probably also affect peak torque. Like Built in traction control. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by DAD: |
Roy, what kind of numbers, hp and Tq are you thinking one would get? Is that wet sump or dry? Just curious.
Thank you |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Roy
Get your foot in the door right. What I have noticed about racers and people in general is as long as you are hanging around mid pack and back they think you are good people. Start poking around up front then you become a S.O.B. and we need to make a rule to take care of that.;) Honest Dad himself:6::6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by Kellen Conover: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by DAD: |
I don't mean to sound silly, but doesn't putting a $1500.00 head on a junkyard bottom end seem a little crazy? Again I've never had my hands on one of these style motors so I don't know.
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by Roy Bleckert: I was thinking stock head and ports. Even ported the Echotec is way off in window size but it would have to help a bunch. With ti valves, springs, retainers, and cams about how much $4500.00 to $5000.00 per head? Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by DAD: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by Kellen Conover: |
Originally Posted by sday27: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
I see at least two classes of these things, Stock and an open class that could probably run with the Nationals if they chose to and if the National groups would let them run in their races.
The big question would be>>>> when the little 1.5 or 2 liter supercharged or turbocharged motors get into the system will racers be open enough to change the rules to allow them to run also? Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
I do not like division splitting it dilutes the field, One midget division , one set of rules across the country that let's those who want to participate , be able to participate , throw the green flag & see who gets to the checkered flag first !
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Roy
My reasoning for at least two classes. Automotive engines are much cheaper to purchase than motorcycle engines. The stock 2.4 liter motor is competitive with a late model Motorcycle engine. It takes another 1400cc to do it but what the heck. These cars won't cost a lot more than a Mini-Sprint and be a lot cheaper than some Micro-Midgets to own and operate. I would think when all of this info leaks out there will be a migration of Mini-Sprint and Micro-Midgets racers over to this new Midget Class. This will probably mean very large fields of 40 to 60 cars. Many of these cars will be kids just getting into racing or grown ups just starting out also. These motors also leave a lot on the table as far as modification possibilities as shown at the Tulsa Shootout this year. It looked as if they had at least 4 or 5 cars racing out of their class, and that is not a good thing. I suspect that some people in Oklahoma and or maybe Illinois see this also and they have the clout to pull this kind of change over off from Micro and Mini Sprint to Midget thing off. Somebody said something about clutches and starters. In the "B" or stock class I guess that would be OK. It would definitely help in moving the race along. However in the "A" class I would not be for it. You are old enough to have witnessed a few clutch explosions, they are not very pretty and can do a lot of damage to anything located in the immediate vicinity of the explosion, like feet and legs etc. It all has to do with "Competition" if the different classes race together, cost, and performance all being pretty equal the best form of racing will simply win out and freedom of choice will have won. Like many non professional racers I gave up running for championships years ago. That requires dedication and commitment, I am lacking in both. I for one am not advocating a National Road show type organization, only a class for Hobby or Sportsman type racers. If you are offended by either of these two terms this old world is big enough for you all to go out and race with groups like USAC or PowrI. We can call these cars Midgets because they are. I prefer to go out and race with armatures and if I can't beat them then I am going to go out and race myself (you might call that auto-racing) and have a lot of fun doing that. PS "USAC" I hope you are taking notes>>> this post seems to be out distancing your post by about a 3 to 1 margin. A swing back to the grass root racing might just make sense right now. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
DAD- We prob have a lot of common ground , I would let the car eng compete as a Midget , maybe the motorcycle eng chain drive we can classify as a TQ Midget , I have had some discussions with some in the TQ ranks they may consider this as NZ runs chain drive TQ's IIRC , I would like to work in the direction of QM, 6oo micro, TQ , Midget , Sprint Car , Champ Dirt Car , as the open wheel divisions across the Country , under one set of rules for each division agreed by all sanctions & owners, I am not holding my breath waiting for this to happen LOLLLLL !!!!!!!
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Still a good read here fellas.
Just my opinion, but I think USAC may be leaning towards the 2.4L production based engines in the future. At some point, in order to bring dollars back into the sport, corporate partners have to come back. Kevin Miller has been on a mission since his early days at USAC to get the 2.4L platform going. With that, many different manufacturers would be able to be apart of the game. With that, the announcer at the racetrack would be able to say Ford, Chevy, Honda, Mopar, etc, etc. With that, he could pursue those companies for sponsorship. These folks aren't going to spend money if they don't think they can get something back via ROI. MOPAR didn't sponsor the series because they loved midget racing. Neither did Toyota. Honda isn't doing it now just because midget racing is so great that they want to be a part of it. At some point, the current style platform will not exist as the main platform. USAC has a dwindling car count and owners quitting every year because of expenses. Sooner or later, they are just going to draw a line in the sand and make a major change. They have done it before as an organization with other things. Kevin Miller certainly isn't above alienating his last 4-5 car owners to make a change like this. I don't see how it could hurt them as an organization in the long run. It will piss some people off and sting for a little while, but time heals all wounds. The silver crown division even seems to be rebuilding after the death penalty of the speedway cars. The purses will be more in line with the cost of the car at that point as well. I don't know what these 2.4L engine platforms would cost, but if we just assumed they were $10-15K, a guy could build a nice race ready car for $25-30 brand new. Races pay $3k to win currently, that is 10% of the value of the car. That makes more sense to me. In the end, midget racing has to find a way to bring people back => Kids specifically. Kids think drifting is cool these days...........I have watched a few of them on TV (for a few seconds) and I don't get it at all. Slide jobs in a midget are way more exciting. BUT, kids see it and love it. They can go buy it for a reasonable price. Work on it themselves with their buddies, Dad or Grandpa in their own garage. Upgrades are available for a reasonable price. Every car out there has corporate sponsorship on it. WHY? Is it because the race on Sunday, sell on Monday mentality still exists? If a midget had a 2.4L production based engine in it, would the local car dealerships get back into racing? Would it be more affordable to find a engine sponsor? Junkyard Jim's sponsoring people all around. Think about the car owners of the past. Cars had names and they usually came from the owners place of business. SELMA Shell sprint car, Ralph's Muffler Shop race team, etc. PLEASE DO NOT GO OFF ON A TIRE CONVERSATION ABOUT MY NEXT COMMENT................Everyone wants the tire rules opened back up and USAC/POWRi to cut ties with Hoosier. The belief is that the price of tires will come down because of the competition. For conversation sake, lets just say that is 100% correct.............Wouldn't this 2.4L production based engine create the same thing? In theory? Suddenly every tuner shop in the country is a midget engine builder. Every junk yard and car dealership is a engine supplier. When you are out in the middle of Kansas in the middle of July, you can actually go and get a crank sensor at O'Reilly's instead of having to carry your own assortment of spare parts everywhere. I think BMARA is going in the right direction here, it may not be noticed this year, but it will get better for them. For the record (not bashing anyone), I don't like the idea of bolting 50-100 of lead on a 900lb car. Or any race car really. We have seen, and I have personally been a part of some wicked midget crashes. If that lead weight were ever to come off there and get into the stands..............what a nightmare that would be. I know there is a risk with crashing and any parts getting into the stands, but when you have something like lead that isn't necessary for competition get loose and get into the stands..........I think the lawyers would be lined up at the pit gate (they wouldn't come in because they don't want to sign the waiver). |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Excellent post Brad, especially the concern over added weight; for the sake of flogging my own dead horse, allow me to throw a couple of real-world scenarios out there, the two I know the most about (with a couple of ideas on what to call us). I am only skimming the high points of the rules:
Scenario 1: Montpelier. Open Midgets (I kinda like that vs. "National"): 1,050 lbs., 12" tire max on 10" rim max. (all cars, open tire, limit one RR per night) Spec/Stock Midgets (better than D-II/Sportsman? Maybe...): No minimum weight, 12" tire, 10" rim. Moto-Midgets (Still needs work): No minimum weight, 12" tire but a 12" rim. Chain & Shaft allowed. This formula may not be ideal (what is?) but so far all of the competitors seem to be all right with it; the Open Motors usually dominate but you see Focus/Ecotec and the occasional M/C powerplants up in the mix (not me, yet, but maybe this year...). Scenario 2. IMRA: Open Midgets: Disallowed Stock/Spec: 1100lbs, Semi-spec tire, 10" rim Motorcyle Power: 925lbs. same tire rule, 12" rim. Chain only. As much as I love Montpelier's minimalistic, y'all come approach, this may be, in my opinion, the best of all worlds. the reason I say this is judging by the one time I've raced with IMRA and the videos/race reports I've read, the competition is close, fierce and exciting between the two seemingly disparate groups with both configurations winning their fair share, and without the need for artificial inhibitors like intake restrictions or bolt-on weight. People like to talk about what a "traditional" midget is, but if you go all the way back to the origins of the sport fields were full of all kinds of setups; V8-60's, Offies, Elto outboards, J.A.P. v-twins (chain-driven), Harley-based Drakes, tractor engines and they were all midgets. Maybe it's OK to be just a little bit different, and still be the same... |
Too bad this didn't happen about 8 years ago when it should have been done. It may be too late now but hopefully it works. Let's get real about car counts, though. IMRA doesn't get 40-50 cars. They, and IRS average 13-19 most of the time. IMRA had a high count somewhere in the low 20's and low of 7 last year. That being said, if some form of this engine package became the "National" rules, those numbers would likely go up. I think they should keep it as stock as possible or they will end up costing too much again. If there is a larger size such as 3.0-3.5 that would be faster and could still be stock. They need to do away with a lot of chassis stuff too that midgets don't need. Titanium, carbon fiber and fancy shocks should all be banned. We ran a $55 steel shock on our car and it worked great!
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by Kuhn74: I like your direction on the tire deal open it up , I would put a cap on the cost say $ 125 per tire as long as it is available to all & you start the main on the tire you qualify on , this was done for a year or two in CRA back in the 80's IIRC |
I always have the nagging question of if it's the way to go then why haven't they been successful in terms of large car counts for the efforts that have been or are currently in place? Will the higher purses be the tipping point or will the competition raise the costs of these motors to the 15 to 20 grand range and make the people mad again? What concerns me too is as big as this thread is or the debate itself is.....I see very few people who are actually involved in the sport or are planning on being a part of it commenting. To me....if we are not using a purpose built engine then why not just make them like Kenyon cars and use a cheaper motor yet with a clutch and starter? I'm afraid people are thinking that will get a 200 motor put 2000 grand in it and your going to have something as reliable and produce as much performance as the current motors and that just isn't going to happen
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
First let me say I'm all for the BMARA motor direction. Speaking as one who raced at Angell Park back in the day (long time ago) with a VW we were seriously out powered. Who ever would said horsepower doen't matter never been in the under horsepowered car. I just wish this would have happened much sooner.. I have a 1000cc chain drive car and believe I could compete with this rule if the would allow it..
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Ok....why don't you sell your current car and get the new package? What price would get you into it?
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by goforit14: Angle Park is not your typical small size Bull Ring!!! HP rules. A 1000cc midget is more than competitive with an Echo-tec. To convert your car to echo tec if your old motor lays down would require the motor plate motor and drive line. They share the same chassis even your bird cages will work with a quick change. Considering the cost of late model bike engines it might not be too big of a jump for you. An interesting note, the radiator on most 1000cc cars must be larger than what a midget would run with. Those extra BTU's says something about performance. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by Kuhn74: You really hit the nail on the head with this bit of information.... Speaking from experience actually.... I come from winged sprint cars, my dad ran them, I went to every race, dreamed of racing them one day etc. Come my teenage years, dad didn't want me in a sprint car, he wanted me to stay away from racing and go to college/graduate college..... In comes drifting- closest thing I could get to sliding around a dirt oval, so I spend every dime I had on a 95 240sx and drifted it at track events and built it into a REALLY nice car over the course of two years. Come last year, I was financially stable enough to look back into dirt racing (also my friend got a midget to run with Waynes series), so I went and listed all of my drifting stuff for sale and am just finishing up building my midget (new triple X with a 2.4 ecotec.... Whole car with NICE components (brand new frame, DMI driveline, Reddevil brakes, etc etc) with the MWR Ecotec cost me right about $19,000..... That's cheap ENOUGH for a college student such as myself to be able to afford as far as up front entry costs go, and they are cheap enough to race every other weekend on a college budget. Case in point- yes, drifting was cheap enough that most kids (16-25) can afford to go and build a car and track it on the weekends.... If midgets such as the "D2" (2.4l) cars become popular across the nation I really think car counts would increase substantially.... Its worth noting, "kids" talk..... My friend got a "D2" midget, I saw the costs involved and immediately sold my drifting stuff to do it, and then his stepbrother ended up getting a car as well..... 3 new cars within a year from one "group" isn't bad..... |
Were the drift events for paying fans? I only ask because the ones I have seen on TV were corporate sponsored events that were free to attend. Will fans come to see these cars is a huge question that will have to be answered quickly as well because there aren't any corporate sponsors at the moment to carry that load. Tracks have to have fans. Not saying they won't....but 35 to 40 cars in front of empty grandstands won't work for the tracks.
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We (drivers) paid $50 to drift all day or entry for the competition day and spectators paid $10 to get in and watch.
I can promise you the ones you watch on tv (most likely formula drift) that was corporate sponsored was still not free. I've been to those events going on 5 years now and they are typically about $35-40 entry fee AND a $10 parking pass... And their crows are ALWAYS huge. |
Ok. I stand corrected. What does those events pay out purse wise?
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
We have been racing Mini sprints almost 30 years now I guess. For the most part it has been a very enjoyable part of our family life. The reason for Mini Sprints is because we love "Midget Racing".!:)
I thought at that time that I had beat the addiction of racing for good and was clean and sober. Well I was invited to watch a then young AJ Felker race his Mini Sprint at the famous "Wonder Valley Speedway" in Salem Indiana. Those things were simply neat and beyond words to me. I soon signed on as a sponsor, mechanic and later was allowed to graduate to car owner for this then sub teen race driver. Those things looked just like Midgets but with the wings they also looked a great deal like what was then called Winged Outlaw Sprints. I immediately saw racing as a way to teach my young son the responsibility's of safe driving and felt it could also be used to deter him from the use of drugs. With that decision I had great success. He graduated from the J.B. Speed School of Engineering and is a practicing software engineer. His driving record on the road is better than mine. Secretly We have always wanted to race Midgets. Through my friendship with Ralph Potter I knew about the cost of racing midgets and all the efforts required to field a winning car . That definitely was not something I wanted to embark on. As a recovering addict I knew that I had to keep myself in certain bounds. Mini Sprints or as I like to refer to them now 1000cc Midgets are hands down the most inexpensive labor UN-intensive form of open wheel race car out there.... Along came USAC and the Focus Midget. To keep costs down? USAC decides to furnish the racer everything in a hermetically sealed container to keep cheater out of the formula. The only problem with this theory are the very lackluster little Focus was way down on Horsepower and overly priced to make any kind of sense to a recovering addict. We were beating them with 600cc uprights back then. Next Allen Ruppenthal come along and reinvents and saves the 1200cc Mini Sprints from extinction with a little Yamaha 1000cc R-1 motorcycle engine. Now I think that perhaps I have died and went to Heaven. These things are fast, almost as fast as a full Midget and still relatively inexpensive and don't require a lot of maintenance. Now all I have to do is convince a few people that these things are really Midgets and not Mini or Lightning or any other kind of Sprint Cars. I haven't been too successful in my efforts. I first saw an Echo Tec at the Chili Bowl probably 5 or 6 years ago. They had it set up as a display only. Revolution Racing was the company's name. This engine looked like a race engine. I talked with the owner about his creation and could tell that he was sincere in his wish to get these things in race cars. He had managed to get a few race cars together and I watched my first EchoTec race at the first Shootout that the 1200cc cars were invited to race in. From watching them I knew that they were also fast, according to my stop watch as fast as our best 1000cc cars. I said to myself these two cars could combine and make a pretty good size racing class. The difference in cost I bet would be minimal. We 1000cc guys buy our motors ready to race but the cost is substantial. The EchoTec guys can also buy used motors but their motors are quite a bit cheaper than ours they do have to spend money to get them ready to race. When comparing the cost of a midget rear end to a chain drive system with aluminum Midget axle and quick change sprocket carriers and many very expensive and delicate aluminum rear sprockets and heavy duty racing chain in several lengths to make labor intensive gear changes, a little easier, the Midget rear end and drive shaft is not that much more expensive and a whole lot stronger and easier to take care of. I bet you drive shaft people have never had to take your drive shaft out and boil it in grease to prep for a race.:5: The EchoTec is a great Division two motor. Now for a National Midget I don't think so. The bottom end like Roy says should handle the power but the head just does have enough meat on the bone to make it a very high performance motor. With forced induction maybe. When ever I have the chance to come across a motor or cylinder head that I think could be a good Midget Motor prospect, I give the ports what I like to call a "Digital Exam". My fingers are kind of short and fat. If I can get my finger through the port and get my first knuckle out past the valve seat without too much bending I think the motor has possibilities. I Can't quite do that with a EchoTec or for that matter any inline 4 cylinder engines. I guess the reasoning is for placement of the throttle body and under the hood clearance it requires an almost 90 degree bend. Now on the V6 motors with that 60 degree bend they have to place the ports at a much more optimum angle to the valve for the same reason, hood clearance and like I said earlier these are the performance engines at least for the very short time being. Lets keep this thing going. You guys have touched on a very important topic. Fans, down here in Louisville it the race track does not have an intersection and a 30 station Beer counter you just ain't going to fill the grand stands.:5:;) Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
I think we will have a much clearer picture on this after the DuQuion and Florida races:22:
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Is brad Kuhn still racing ? Lost touch with his running
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I think you may be able to find footage of him racing last year at Chili Bowl.
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by DAD: My proposal , take the USAC 2014 rule on the HonDoo let it run EFI 2.5 liter max give it a 50# weight break & let's let it Rip as a first step/foot in the door Kuhn74 & xoxide are correct IMO - the under 40 crowd today grew up on EFI , they know that Tech inside & out , that is what they are interested in , that is why they drag race , drift or off road race them , they tell me allow us to race our stuff a lot of them would love to race Midgets etc, If you want them to participate give them the tools to participate & do not make it convoluted or difficult for them to participate |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Originally Posted by Roy Bleckert: If you keep it as a stock crank/block/head with aftermarket rods, pistons (stock Equivalent) cams/springs/retainers...valves must remain stock size....these engines will push 230-250 HP and that is more then enough to put on a great show....maybe even better then the 370-420 HP engines.... |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Roy
For an old guy you think pretty clearly. For the life of me I can not see why anyone would want to take a modern high performance engine and retrofit an antique 1950 era fuel injection system to it. The story I get is it gives us better acceleration, OK, I could spend a little more and get a Motec ecm that would give me a little more room for the acceleration pump adjustment and fix that, and I still would not be filling my crankcase up with extra methanol the rest of the time that I was motoring around the race track. There is a whole lot less voodoo involved racing with an electronics injection system than choosing the right pills as the night goes on. IT IS JUST MUCH MORE EFFICIENT DOING IT'S JOB !!!!! NO EXTRA POWER JUST MORE CONSISTENT POWER!!!! There is a small learning curve when learning how to program. Programing should be the job of your Motor builder after you get it right it stays right until a sensor give up on you. We might even develop a cottage industry of guys writing and selling maps for different applications. As far as drifting goes they don't have a crowd either. For some reason open wheel fans like to consider them selves smarter than your average stock car fan. We are facing an education problem for our fans. In the old days dad would take a kid to the track and explain the ins and outs of what is going on out on the race track. Today dads go one way and the kid stay home on the computer. We have fantasy racing (got me) maybe they could take on a little more education. We have racing games for computers could they do a better job of explaining slide jobs, tight, loose etc. I don't know I don't play games on the computer. I get too tied up with IOW. (I did get into computer jig saw puzzles a little but I think that is behind me now?;)) Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
My view is the HonDoo can compete with the current Midgets we have , if USAC/POWERi etc adopted something like my proposal it will help get the younger crowd interested in open wheel racing , my concern is not reinventing the wheel, it is to transition to the next generation of Racers !
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Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
Roy
It is them darned Toyota's causing the problem.:D;) It was almost MoPars. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
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