Re: mini sprint evolution
 

1000cc are getting up there, but our motor we got for less than $2000 and it is winning races in both MMSA and AMSA along with running up front with Montpelier. I am finding the more $ you put into the motors the more likely you will blow them up. We are running a compeletly stock motor straight out of the bike and its a great motor.

Come supoort Montpelier Speedway. Great group of people and they are putting everything out there to give midgets a local place to run.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Next week we have a choice stay home, run wingless at 24 or wingless at Montpelier the haul is about the same for us. Or we could just wait and try our new motor in 6th gear at the big "E".

We do need to get Bill and Harold on the ball and have a shoot-out race toward the end of the year with "Big Bucks" need Brian out looking for deeep pocket sponsors. We might have to rule out a few midget motors, Maybe run Pontiac motors and down only.

I know a fella that would be pretty good at helping us at "handicapping" the thing.

MONEY talks and that other stuff walks! We sponsored a $1000.00 to win race at 16th street speedway for 600cc uprights many years ago and had fifty something cars show up to race.

I think they tried this at US 24 speedway and had problems? maybe they got the wrong car mix or something. I still think it can be done. and Montpelier would be a great place to try it.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Be careful with us24 might only get $100 for 2nd.... So you know my vote... Montpelier....You will most likely get that just to start ;)

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

You guys have a great Idea, but growth is going to take a little while.
The only area I could think of that has a smaller amount of open wheel fans would be LOUISVILLE KY. Most of your racers pull 2 plus hours to get there right now. Once your fans and racers find out they can race midgets on a budget your car counts will grow. Many of your mod cars have more in their engine then we have in our whole car. When this little secret gets out the numbers will grow.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

It ain't that old junk yard motor "GIRL". You got the chassis "FSC", set-up "JOE" and the driver "LYNSEY", If you go faster in the turns you go faster down the straightaway.

The motor always gets all the credit or the blame, that is what racers have such a hard time figuring out and that is why they spend so much money trying to fix something that ain't broke.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Talking about evolution... Do any of you guys have plans to move to sprint cars? If not, why?

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Wish I could but can't afford it. I have ran a handful of races for other people.....

I'm sorry to see that, because that is the evolution that needs fixed!

Good luck!

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Bill G.

Within the past two seasons the following drivers have progessed
(evolved) fom mini's to the Sprint division:
S. Motsinger
N. Hale
D Applegate
D. Dorsett
R. Henning
J. Paul - owner
S. Miller
L. Tilton
I may have missed 1 or 2.
Some are running paragon (the normal progression) Waynesfield, Clay Co. & other area tracks.
This is the reason the Drivers want more non-wing mini sprint races, especially, on the 1/4 & smaller tracks, The MMSA is doing all we can to promote evolution.

Bill May

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Also on the wing side with plenty of success
360's:
Beau Stewart
Max Stambaugh
Devon Dobie
410's:
Ryan Broughton
Jesse McCreary
Sam Ashworth

Plenty of growth out of mini sprints. Although many are leaving far before they are ready.(ie. Never win a race)

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Amen !:6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I really dont care to enter this debate on drive line problems,cheating,or cost.
I would like to ask one very pertinent question.

Which Japanese manufacturer has spent dollar one on Mini Sprint racing?
Thats what I thought....

Ford on the other hand,an American Company, has spent their resources in an attempt to help and grow this class of racing by making a cheaper and more durable engine/driveline package. Lets immediately flip them off before there is even a prototype on the track ! That's a wise choice.

Some of you people amaze me with your narrow minded/non business approach to racing. Guess what, Racing IS a business. The current Mini Sprint business model is a dinosaur and will eventually fail. Largely due to the lack of support from the current engine manufactures.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Trust me I would love to. I will be in a sprint car a few races this year...when Joe allows me to pull his seat out and put mine in :)

Mini Sprints are super affordable for the most part. IF we could get purses back up I think you will see more and more go back to mini sprints just because of the cost factor.....

In just mini sprint races, we have ran 7 we have not finished outside top 2 (except for 1 and we were lucky we got the car back together after a driver error) but just with that we brake even and get to the next race...bigger purses would help

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Bill Gardner

Take a little time and watch a mini sprint race sometime.

Racing is a very expensive sport, and mini sprints or as I like to think of them as "1000cc midgets" is the less expensive route to take. For many of us it seems to be the last stop. I am not going to go bankrupt chasing a dream. If you spend a little time looking inside a "1000cc midget" race you will find drivers racing in them with as much or more ability as anyone racing sprint cars today, but these drivers have jobs, family and pockets not as deep as some other racers.

Like I've said before if you look down the midget drivers list most of them will have the same last name as the owner of the car, those that don't have the same last name have very very rich parents. I do not begrudge them their wealth but that is a simple fact.That means they were born very lucky and are related to somebody that can afford to spend between $30,000.00 to $300,000.00 a year for them to race and get to the level where someone might think about hiring them as a race car driver. We budget about $5000.00 a year to race or "1000cc Midget" on that includes the car, tires,fuel, repairs, and transportation to the race track, and this danged $4.00 gasoline is taking away from all of that.


USAC would be considered the university of racing, Poweri would be the State College, and 1000cc midgets is the trade school of racing.

Bill May left out Shane Cottle AMSA, Jimmy Kite southern states, and AJ Felker Thunder Valley 600cc racer. AJ was a very good midget driver and is a very talented race car builder and engine mechanic.

Sure almost everyone racing 1000cc midgets would like to break out and hit the circuit. But they are also realist and know that they have jobs and family and other things that come first. They also love racing and if this is what it takes to race that is what they do.

Sometimes I feel like Rodney Dangerfield. On the smaller tracks with our wings on we are as fast or faster than anything out there that includes wingless 410 sprints, full midgets, or late models. But we are considered a support class. Sometimes our races are a little boring to the casual race fan that is because we don't make too many mistakes and cause a lot yellow or red flags, but if you watch these racers closely they are racing as close or closer than their larger brethren, and not screwing up.

Like TQ"s we have 3 types of drivers, "Young hot shoe's" (those moving up and out), we are a great starting point for open wheel racers, "Over the hill" wana be racers(those that did not get to race when young and who have got to the point that they can afford to do some racing now), and the "Journeyman 1000cc midget driver" ( those that race 1000cc midgets because that is what they can afford and over years of racing have become excellent race car drivers). These are the racer that teach the young hot shoe right from wrong and watch out for the over the hill wana be racer and do this because they love racing.

If it takes a motor change 1000cc midgets we will do it heck, we might evolve into 2000cc midgets who knows, But I do know we have earned a place in dirt track racing, and I think we are smart enough to evolve with time. Yeh some of us will move up and out and some of us will stay here and hold the fort down.

When the heck are we going to get to see that evolving Ford Duratec race car?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Well said! outlaw2010

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Chrysler got involved with midget and sprint car racing, that sure brought the cost of racing Way Way down. Ford got involved with with USAC and the Focus midget, that is an inexpensive deal. Nothing like having the manufacture in on the deal to bring the cost of racing down. The echo tec still shows promise if we can get GM in on it hot and heavy. There is nothing that a racer can do as cheaply as a manufacture can.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

That was the best part of the class, no engine manufacturer was needed. The jap engines are perfect for the class as is, pull them from a wrecked bike and go race. It doesnt get easyier or cheaper than that. Not to mention the jap 1000cc engines are refined to the point of almost perfection year after year. Hello! all midgets, minisprints and sprintcars are dinosaurs. Thats what I thought the draw was, not some newfangled crap everytime you turn around. If a car manufacturer is building a engine they are building a midget engine anyhow, not a minisprint engine. It seems like only on this site is there any confusion to what the difference between a midget and a minisprint is, it seems like the rest of the world gets it.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I guess it fine if you choose not to, or cant understand, what I wrote.

I stated the current business Model for Mini Sprint racing is a very poor one, and cannot survive.
If you would like to comment on that statement I would be happy to start a dialog. Sadly,I have found these forums do more to impede an intelligent discussion rather than foster one.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

:5: Basically mini's midgets and sprintcars have hardley evolved, thats why they're great, and pretty much dino's.. Minisprints are and have always been a motorcycle engined powered machine, mostly catering to the folks that dont have the money or desire to run a more expensive midget. minisprint owners and drivers arnt very interested in business models, thats why we own minisprints. Your starting to sound a bit too smart for a class that was started for fun. If your looking for a cheap engine for midgets more power to you. How intelligent do you have to be to understand that a minisprint is motorcycle engine powered, and most of us dont want or need car engines, which happen to be a different class of car, midgets. Seems like maybe you arnt intelligent enough to see the difference between apples and oranges.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Thank you Bob...For proving my point.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Sorry about that chief. How long have you been in the mini sprint - open wheel business? I think I will stick with "Speedy Bill" and the "Foz" guys myself thank you, you have lost my business not that you were ever going to get it.

Were I you I would find another board closer to home to read that had more intelligent members you could relate to maybe with "MBA's".

How many mini sprint races do you race in a year? See that you sponsor "Scott Johnson" up in Mn. What business school did you attend? If I were trying to sell to the racing public and you are (CHEAP SEATS) the first thing I would do is get down off of that high horse you are sitting on.

We are in the hot bed of Mini sprint/1000cc midget racing. We see what is going on. If your business model includes Ford I would suggest USAC. They have a great business model , a rule book and corporate structure to go with it, make your self at home. You might have to come up with a little money to play with them, but they would be great for you and your business.

HELLO!:5:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

PS. Do you have any sponsorship money available?

---------- Post added at 4:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 3:47 PM ----------

DOES THIS GUY ADVERTISE ON "IOW" ?:10:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

A quick search on eBay shows around 10 GSXR1000s between the years of 2005 and 2008 in the price range of $1500 to $2600.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

In all fairness, a quick search on ebay shows DuraTecs at $500-900... except you don't have to get one on Ebay and pay to ship it, you can get one at the local boneyard.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I understand that.....my only point is I don't see motocycle engines becoming difficult to find over then next decade. There are no shortage of bikes, and more importantly, no shortage of people wrecking bikes.

I ran into this same type thing with quarter midgets. Every year QMA felt the need to change the Honda rules because the new motors were different than the older ones. Well guess what, there were so many older fricking Honda 120 and 240 motors available there was no reason for anyone to buy a new one.

Find something that works, stick to it, and keep costs down. As someone else said, this is just a hobby for most of us.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

The big deal is what state of tune is that Ford engine in that you are getting off of Ebay or the junk yard? Even without factory support that 1000cc motorcycle motor will eat a hopped up Ford's lunch.

I am sure Mr. Outlaw would be glad to sell you parts to make that Ford motor faster he is in the business of selling performance auto parts, just not to me. I think that he or the guy that has put that little Ford motor in a midget chassis should get the chance to race it and if they choose to race with us in Indiana they would get my blessing. If they choose to stay in Mn. that is great also.

If things tighten up here and or in Japan we might have to find a new power plant, that is a bridge yet to be crossed. We will do it.

Just don't give me that line about a failed business model. To me that sounds like global warming and Mr. Outlaw probably also believes in that.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

All minisprint racing needs is more holligans out there wrecking bikes. I've done my share of bike destroying, I'm getting too old and tired to supply you guy's with engines anymore. :D

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Lets put this thing to bed, I"m tired and:deadhorse:I would hate to think I was helping "Mr Outlaw" in any way, good night.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Yes Father,

I will get off MY high horse now.
Please let me respond to a few of your personal attacks now...

I race a few Mini Sprint events a year, every race WIMS runs in fact.

Scott Johnson lives in Illinois not Minnesota and unfortunately hasn't been racing his DLX this season so sponsorship is a non issue...In fact Scott has nothing to do with my statements in any way.

Whether you stick with "Speedy Bill " to buy your parts is also a non issue. I do like Larry over at FOZ and purchase some of my parts through his company Speed Partz as I am not in the Mini Sprint Business due to my previously stated , Mini Sprint nonsensical business model. And furthermore, I have a customer base built from well informed,intelligent and pleasant customers, and everyone over here at Outlaw is proud to serve them.

What any of this has to do with the conversation about moving Mini Sprint Racing forward with some backing from large corporations I will never know.

Its a pretty common tactic to attack the messenger rather than the message. Happens in ******** every day and I believe much too frequently on these boards as well. You DAD proved that with your most recent rant toward me which had absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying.
Have a nice night.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

The minisprint class isnt broken. I believe the last thing most minisprint people want is the backing of a large corporation. Were simple folks, that would prefer to take a engine out of a smashed bike and go have some fun. I dont believe this class was intended for anything other than taking some parts, putting a car together and enjoying racing as a family. For that end the minisprint is perfect, theres nothing nonsensical about the business model, it actually works quite well. You can still take 5 grand and go kick some butt, after the sensical business folks get a hand in it you can figure on spending alot more.

"Which Japanese manufacturer has spent dollar one on Mini Sprint racing?
Thats what I thought...."

"Ford on the other hand,an American Company, has spent their resources in an attempt to help and grow this class of racing by making a cheaper and more durable engine/driveline package."


That could not be more wrong. Are you really trying to play the America card? It is more un- American to take away our free choice of low cost motors, and then raise the cost of the class by making everyone buy the same ford motor. Ford is clearly in this for the profits, not the racers.

Just 10 months ago, we bought a low mileage 08 1000cc honda for $800 on ebay, & not to mention saved over $2000 in expenses by running a CHAIN instead of a quick change rear end. There are just as many, if not more, active mini sprints in the Midwest than there has been in years. Car counts are growing now that engines are so cheap and reliable.

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I take there 500-900 dollar ford motor and raise it with my $300 jap motor. Nobody ever said you have to buy a motor out of a bike. Do a search you can find tons of motors with holes in them from the chain that run great. Hell mine sounds like a sewing machine but ive picked up 6 wins with it and its more then payed for its self. This whole ford mini sprint idea doesnt make sense to me. Its the same thing the eco tech is. Wich last time I checked isnt a mini sprint.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

The Duratec 20 is a 2.0 L (122 CID; 1999 cc) version built in Chihuahua, Mexico.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I shouldn't but just can not keep myself from a thread that affects many like myself, Wayne Davis of the Southern States Lightning Sprints and 3 very good people that helps these cars grow...Bill May (MMSA), Jerry Tague (AMSA), Roger Sollenberger (ILSS). Also throw in Mike Whitmore of the Wisconsin group.
We, all 5 groups, have similarly rules, close on some, way off on others but with 1 (ONE) common goal....GROW THIS CLASS OF RACE CAR!!!! What is being discussed is all good and can make this class grow even if it is chain driven or QC rearend. Gas or Alcohol. DuroTech/EcoTech/Focus ...Ford or Chevy, Suzuki/Honda/Yamaha 1000cc or 1352cc. COST is the determining factor in all of this.

COST...not just car cost and engine cost...you have travel cost, pit fee cost, fuel cost...ect...ect...ect.

YES we all agree this is our hobby for fun...These (Mini/Lightning Sprint 1000 Midget) is what the modified is to the late model...the midget to the sprint...another words it is what both the modified and the midget started out to be but was allowed to "EVOLVE" into a hole different deal and cost has WAY OVER escalated the past 15 years on both. So again back to that cost factor...Some don't like chains, others hate QC's... I can see a happy median between the two as to what has progressed with the gas/fuel/weight issue debate.

We as promoters have to depend on you as a car owner to come race .... tracks have to depend on us to bring them cars..... track owners need car counts for more fans, so more cars = happier track owners/promoters which = more money...more money for car owners = :D owners and drivers and more places to race...ALL this sounds so simple but IT IS NOT....

WHAT ARE THE PERFECT RULES? This is suppose to be a simple STOCK engine class and the motorcycle engine seems to fit this deal perfect. But what is to say this "OTHER" engine can't be the same (if the cost is kept to a minimal). The engine (long block) is not the question as far as cost (5-8 hundred) but what about the rest? This is were the dollars for the engine will be made...all the bolt on things. So you buy just the long block from the salvage, but have to spend another 5-6 thousand on accessories, it drives the cost up even more...

People speak of a business model, if this was to get developed WHO will it benefit the most, the people selling the parts. But then that is ok IF the cost is kept low to begin with. And I PROMISE YOU THIS "FORD" or any other manufacture is not doing this with out a foreseen profit of some sorts down the road. I will agree we do need to be open minded and if this engine can be developed at a cost of 3000.00 completely installed and with a very mi-nute cost afterwards it could be a good thing for the Mini/Lightning Sprint 1000 Midget class...wing and NON WING!! (sorry I couldn't help myself)

I could continue but will stop here for now...The bottom line is this... It is up to the people in control (promoters of the different series) to allow something like this or not.....is it and will it be good for the class or will it defeat it's purpose of a economical race car...time will tell...What I fill needs to happen is previously mentioned promoters need to set down and come up with as close to the same rules as possible then WORK with each other and each series holds 1 national event a year...5 races 1 NATIONAL CHAMPION...or if the guys in Missouri wanted to be included it would be 6 races....

I hope any of you do not take offense to any of this.... a forum thread allows YOUR voice to be heard just like the Constitution of OUR GREAT NATION....

:29:Good night Drew Dorsett where ever you are!!!!!!:26:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Thought that was "Miss Kalabash"

You are right Wayne. What we need are a few benevolent dictators to keep the deal going.

We do not need someone with a "business Model and the help of Ford motor company involved so they can make a quick buck and move on to their next great idea.

I pm'd a few people who race "WIMS" to get another view of what is going on up there and it looks more like a conspiracy to fool some younger and newer racers into a buying a bill of goods.

No "Japan" is not going away anytime soon. And yes these motors will still be available into the future, And they will still be tuff as nails, and it will be hard to beat that old chain drive (SORRY about that PAPA). But that is the plain hard honest truth.

You younger guy's Just keep on keepin on, don't jump at the first new idea. If these things are so great lets talk to those Dictators and see if they won't let you run with them and the best will win out,(Boy I love Competition) Flashy pamphlets never beat anybody. And I would much rather have a benevolent dictator Like yourself Wayne or, Bill, Jerry, or Roger to lead us into the future than an MBA with a business model and designs of getting into my pocket.

If anybody would like to respond and verbally dress me down be my guest I have gotten it from much better people than you.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I have and always will think that the minisprint should be powered by a jap 4 cylinder, with a chain drive. Stock engine. Thats the perfect working model for the working mans class. You dont need to know squat about engines, just keep up with tuneups. You dont need a push truck. I'd rather see a way for a guy to run a Busa engine or a zx1400 engine in the class then to muck it up with auto engines. Need more racers at your event's ? Promote harder ? or just put on quality races with what you got, it sounds like the product is good. Its hard to pull good car counts anywhere, anymore.

I cant believe this thread is still going

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