Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

STP, if there was ever an engine built, that hasn't been tried in a TQ, I don't know what it would have been. You aren't old enough, to have seen all the different combo's tried, it was just like full midgets, just before, and after WWII, anything that could be had, was used, and, a heck of a lot of inventivness was displayed. Early on, the Crosley was probably the most dominate, because of their availability, and cost, Crosley made them for everything, the Government bought them by the bazillions, for generators and what ever, almost every reefer truck had one mounted on the front of the trailer, keeping the cargo cold, I was making a parts sale at the Ford dealer I worked at, in the mid 50's, to a trucker, who had his rig parked out front, all of a sudden, he took off like a bullet, he had heard the Crosley on his rig go down, and in those days, that coulda been the signal that someone was removing it from his trailer, because those engines had steel, rather than cast cranks in them, and they were the choice of the day. I still contend, our rules as far as engines go, cover the bases well, there is wiggle room, and the choice to move to a modern tech engine, without a lot of expense, and as far as the 600 vs the 750's of today, the 600 is still the choice, the 750 just doesn't seem to be a race engine, whereas the 1000's of today, are like the 600's, race built from the factory, which is the least expensive way to go. I wouldn't run off anyone, who shows up with a new chassis, be it Beast, or any of the others being built, Spike, XXX, still some coming from down under, Willis has 2, the one's I built, Nichols built, Stapp, Doemelt, all still good chassis, so new isn't always new, and better. Good luck! Bob!:)

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

I personally feel that the closer you make the rules and regulations were the average person with the basic hand tools can perform more of the work on their engine program, without the need to own a machine shop or pay for someone else to do the work, this will create a more cost effective engine program...

@ school in Michigan be back this weekend, good luck to all this week on and off the racetrack... Mark Widener

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

Originally Posted by OpenwheelRob:
<---Finished 5th and is pretty happy. Perhaps you should jump in one and show us how to win every week. You really think it's just the motors? Your leaving out one of the biggest parts, The Driver, and those guys typically in that top 5(excluding this week):17: are pretty freakin good.

You're right, driver has a lot to do with it. I completely agree with that, and I'm not saying that it isn't, never did. But go look at the winners this year, it's all the same people. That's not the point though. You can be happy with 5th all day long, that's great, and I'm happy for you that that is fine with you. 5th isn't why we go to the track. We go to have fun, but we go to win.

Obviously I'm not getting my point across, so I'm pretty much done on the topic for now, I've got other stuff to spend my time on rather than wasting my time with this.

1. TQ's need a better motor deal. They need something to compete with the 836 Honda.

2. Keep the rear end, it makes them cool.

3. Make the cars so the average Joe can take a toolbox to the track and race, and doesn't need an engineering degree in order to make everything work. That's why other forms of racing are popular, they are easier for people to get involved with.

So with those three things, I've said my peace, just like I said, not worth wasting my time on it anymore.

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

bob as far as the frame goes, ours is built with the same tubing used for midgets. is that something that you cant just do? the higher weight limit will help with making bigger thicker frames. i agree though some frames are not strong enough for much more engine, or some of the bigger tracks.
Will

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

Will, unless it's 1 3/8 OD, it isn't full midget tube, I'm thinkin Beast built them all out of 1 1/4 OD, but maybe not. What we could really use, is a more equal weight rule, like the mini's have, at least a lot of folks would feel better about what they have, but I think that idea has long whiskers by now! Bob!:)

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

i completely agree with you bob. scott Brannin built our car Kreeper chassis. i am thanking it is the full midget tubing and we are at least 200lbs over the current weight.
Will

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

Originally Posted by thebus79h:
You're right, driver has a lot to do with it. I completely agree with that, and I'm not saying that it isn't, never did. But go look at the winners this year, it's all the same people. That's not the point though. You can be happy with 5th all day long, that's great, and I'm happy for you that that is fine with you. 5th isn't why we go to the track. We go to have fun, but we go to win.

Obviously I'm not getting my point across, so I'm pretty much done on the topic for now, I've got other stuff to spend my time on rather than wasting my time with this.

1. TQ's need a better motor deal. They need something to compete with the 836 Honda.

2. Keep the rear end, it makes them cool.

3. Make the cars so the average Joe can take a toolbox to the track and race, and doesn't need an engineering degree in order to make everything work. That's why other forms of racing are popular, they are easier for people to get involved with.

So with those three things, I've said my peace, just like I said, not worth wasting my time on it anymore.

Billie, just realized whose car you were working with, my driver, Kyle Lux bought that new, it's a Beast chassis, with a Winters, or was, and a Honda. Kyle never said who had it now, what broke, that caused you the down time, engine, or something else? Bob!:)

Yes Bob, that's the car. Engine has been the issue. Been chasing problems all year, but on a "no budget" operation, haven't been able to iron it out. We know what we need to do, just money is the issue at this point. With two businesses being funded out of our pockets to have them moving has taken so much of our time and money.
That's why I'm such a proponent of new engines, as they're ready to go, drop them in and go. But the ones to win races in the series, you cannot run.
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Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

Mini sprints use a 1 1/4" 090 4130 top rail. People do race old full midget frames and convert them over to chain the extra tube size in top rail adds about 12 lbs to the car weight. I bought an old TQ out of Illinoise a few years ago to run at little Salem when they were going to put them on the program. It was goss green so I new it had to be fast. Got home and looked at it. The frame was so light I wouldn't let my kid drive it and mason decided he wasn't going to race them anyhow so it's still sitting in my pole barn. The old frames with the exception of a few looked a little light to be racing with. It's hard to build a frame for what they can sell you a new one for. Unless you have ideas you want to try out off the shelf is better and probably cheeper.

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

Boy, how familiar does that sound, I only had one business, but was able to do my own work, and for others, so it kinda worked out, then when I retired, and now only have SS, and no savings or sponsors, 05 is when I retired, and oddly enough, that's when I went to the 600R, and for a long time now, have been able to make the racing, pay for itself. Hope things work out for ya, looks like it may be one and done for us this year, or for a while, I don't want to take Kyle away from his work, since he at least has one, for now. I'm sure it will not effect the other racers, us being absent, altho it will mean one less target! Bob!:)

---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

Originally Posted by DAD:
Mini sprints use a 1 1/4" 090 4130 top rail. People do race old full midget frames and convert them over to chain the extra tube size in top rail adds about 12 lbs to the car weight. I bought an old TQ out of Illinoise a few years ago to run at little Salem when they were going to put them on the program. It was goss green so I new it had to be fast. Got home and looked at it. The frame was so light I wouldn't let my kid drive it and mason decided he wasn't going to race them anyhow so it's still sitting in my pole barn. The old frames with the exception of a few looked a little light to be racing with. It's hard to build a frame for what they can sell you a new one for. Unless you have ideas you want to try out off the shelf is better and probably cheeper.

Our chassis specs are 1 1/4, .095 in the cage area, and 1 1/4 -.065 minimum on other frame rails, other bracing can be no less that .065, there is very little weight loss by using thinner tube, I have a catalog with all the per foot weights of moly tube, and wall thickness isn't that much of a factor, my chassis, with all mounts, and dzus tabs typically went out at between 95, and 100 lbs, the complete car, at the track, and fluids, came in at 675 with a Honda, you can deduct about 30 off that with the 600. Bob!:):

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

I have been talking and looking at a lot of options and maybe came to my conclusion.I want to keep the same setup as we have with the driveshaft and quick change,I don't like it a lot sometimes ,but it is what sets TQs apart.How hard would it be to convert a TQ over to chain drive?Get rid of the quickchange and swap a straight axle,maybe use the same birdcages?Welding brackets in for a newer motorcycle engine to set inside the frame wouldn't be too hard or expensive.Would it be possible and economicle to change a Tq to an uprite Minisprint?Invite uprite minisprints to run with us in their own class?Drop the ccs to 640 so engines are not bored and built to outragouse and unreliable limits.Let some guys go that route.Bringing in some uprites could get our car counts up to 40 a night I think.Then in a couple years set up some new rules and guidlines for some 1000 cc tqs running cut blocks or 4 stroke snomobile engines as a third class of cars.That would be a good show for ther fans,maybe add wings to the uprites so they look a little different for the fans.We need get our fan base back so we can get better payouts and the booses need this club to support itself and proffit.

---------- Post added at 10:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 AM ----------

I like the snowmobile engines so much because of the way they are built,dry sump oil system,wouldn't have to cut the case just take it off the snowmobile and bolt it on,like the minisprints do with the bike engines.Keep it simple.

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

I love you guys and the sport you deliver but I have to say that this thread demonstrates the essence of "club racing." Pages of talk about the nuances of drive-trains; past history; old bad blood; justifications for increasingly smaller niches in the motorsports spectrum... Not a lot of concern over what type of show is given the fans.

This is perfectly fine as long as the participants want to continue footing their own bills in a 100% "Pay to Play." game. This is not good if they want bigger purses and greater recognition. The SCCA can do perfectly fine running in shopping center parking lots and staging Poker Runs for its members and the players are happy with it. If the 2 TQ groups are happy running at empty county fair tracks then all the power to them. We all play this game as we like it and if the TQ and similar classes are happy with the "Club Life" then all the power to them.

But the TQ's and all similarly SIZED racers can offer fans an exciting show on tracks that full-sized sprints and midgets cannot. The smaller width and wheelbase lets them turn the Speedrome into a racing madhouse. The tight cornering makes the pointy-end of Mt. Lawn exciting. They should be the winter racing superstars at coliseums all over the Midwest.

Instead they spend their time fighting over chain-drives, old rivalries and "tradition."

The fans in the stands don't care a tin whistle if the car is chain-driven, shafted of the crank or powered by a squirrel on a wheel. The fans like the speed and quickness the TQ's can deliver. They don't see anything covered by the skin and, frankly, don't care. The only people who care about the TQ vs. mini-sprint vs. UMRA vs. MTQRL or any of that are in the pits. ... trying to figure out how to get enought money to make the next race.

If you all have unlimited pockets and don't need fan support; then continue on this path. Fight every change to prevent your parts from being obsoleted. Split off another category of racecars every few years when a better, faster, cheaper, different, whatever shows up in the pits. Hold a drivers' meeting before every race to hash and re-hash each tiny problem and change the procedure at every show to suit each passing whim.

If you want to strengthen your position to make TQ's a viable class of racers in front of paying fans who can help you increase your purse then do it. I've seen the mini-sprints and TQ's run together. They are very compatible with each other and the fans couldn't tell the difference. Stock car fans at weekly tracks generally don't care for the midgets. The TQ's, however, can deliver an exciting show at places like the Speedrome, Mt. Lawn, and other tight bull-rings. They COULD be one of the stars of the County Fair circuit due to their versatility on a variety of track sizes and their ability to put on a show on the unbanked crappy tracks. They could be... but aren't.

This has been an ugly summer for spectator sports with all manner of attendance down by 10-20%. Even the county fairs have seen this drop. NExt summer will probably be as bad. The TQ crowd has a choice: continue wandering the narrow cow paths into obscurity or come together and shape a road together.

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

Originally Posted by Torry:
I love you guys and the sport you deliver but I have to say that this thread demonstrates the essence of "club racing." Pages of talk about the nuances of drive-trains; past history; old bad blood; justifications for increasingly smaller niches in the motorsports spectrum... Not a lot of concern over what type of show is given the fans.

This is perfectly fine as long as the participants want to continue footing their own bills in a 100% "Pay to Play." game. This is not good if they want bigger purses and greater recognition. The SCCA can do perfectly fine running in shopping center parking lots and staging Poker Runs for its members and the players are happy with it. If the 2 TQ groups are happy running at empty county fair tracks then all the power to them. We all play this game as we like it and if the TQ and similar classes are happy with the "Club Life" then all the power to them.

But the TQ's and all similarly SIZED racers can offer fans an exciting show on tracks that full-sized sprints and midgets cannot. The smaller width and wheelbase lets them turn the Speedrome into a racing madhouse. The tight cornering makes the pointy-end of Mt. Lawn exciting. They should be the winter racing superstars at coliseums all over the Midwest.

Instead they spend their time fighting over chain-drives, old rivalries and "tradition."

The fans in the stands don't care a tin whistle if the car is chain-driven, shafted of the crank or powered by a squirrel on a wheel. The fans like the speed and quickness the TQ's can deliver. They don't see anything covered by the skin and, frankly, don't care. The only people who care about the TQ vs. mini-sprint vs. UMRA vs. MTQRL or any of that are in the pits. ... trying to figure out how to get enought money to make the next race.

If you all have unlimited pockets and don't need fan support; then continue on this path. Fight every change to prevent your parts from being obsoleted. Split off another category of racecars every few years when a better, faster, cheaper, different, whatever shows up in the pits. Hold a drivers' meeting before every race to hash and re-hash each tiny problem and change the procedure at every show to suit each passing whim.

If you want to strengthen your position to make TQ's a viable class of racers in front of paying fans who can help you increase your purse then do it. I've seen the mini-sprints and TQ's run together. They are very compatible with each other and the fans couldn't tell the difference. Stock car fans at weekly tracks generally don't care for the midgets. The TQ's, however, can deliver an exciting show at places like the Speedrome, Mt. Lawn, and other tight bull-rings. They COULD be one of the stars of the County Fair circuit due to their versatility on a variety of track sizes and their ability to put on a show on the unbanked crappy tracks. They could be... but aren't.

This has been an ugly summer for spectator sports with all manner of attendance down by 10-20%. Even the county fairs have seen this drop. NExt summer will probably be as bad. The TQ crowd has a choice: continue wandering the narrow cow paths into obscurity or come together and shape a road together.

Post 93/94! OMG that's funny, did you guys have help, or did you think this up on your own? This is a very good example of heeding common sense, and staying in where it's cool!:5::8::29::15::deadhorse::39::43::Bob!:)

Car count averages for 2011 are mtqrl 20.5. Umra 15.4 umra has an average of 11 cars on pavement. Mtqrl will not run pavement because the numbers don't lie. Also there a couple former tq drivers and owners getting back into the game. Which will increase car counts. Tq's will prosper but mtqrl doesn't need any merger because they focus on the show and they are on an upswing.
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Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

We have a chain drive tq with a 600cc yam in it but nobody will let it run with them because of the chain. The engine sets in the car just like it does in the bike and is inside the frame directly in front of the driver, stock on gas to boot.

Change is inevitable in everything in life except for tq midget racing in indiana. Lol. I don't understand why but that's just the way it is.
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Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

Originally Posted by Jrp4554:
Change is inevitable in everything in life except for tq midget racing in indiana. Lol. I don't understand why but that's just the way it is.
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Why do you want to change it? That's what I don't understand.

You have TQ midgets and you have mini sprints...enough said!:deadhorse:

Sorry I forgot your not allowed to say the word change and tq in the same sentence.
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Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

:44:

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

Originally Posted by Ambrose93&39:
We have a chain drive tq with a 600cc yam in it but nobody will let it run with them because of the chain. The engine sets in the car just like it does in the bike and is inside the frame directly in front of the driver, stock on gas to boot.

wasn"t that koenig your dad kicked butt with chain driven ??

If something has been working for 50 plus years why does there need to be a change. I think if you look out east and south that they changed there engine package and hurt there car counts. There are plenty of other engines out there beside a Honda that can win a race. I know some say you can't get low enough on gear but acro has a new rear end coming out that should take care of that.
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I like the idea of having a 600 mini sprint class traveling with one of the clubs. I like both types of cars but have a 600 upright. Two classes of cars even better for the fans. The 1000 already have two traveling series.
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Refusing to change within any business or organization is the fast track to failure. Late 90's average car count was high 40's not willing to run younger drivers allowed the k cars and other organizations to grow. Refusing chssis changes promted many people to say goodbye tqs. Refusing to work on track prep.at the fairground tracks led to one lane tracks and not giving the fans a good show. You don’t have to make wholesale changes but be willing to evolve with the times. Acro has a new rearend awesome because they are evolving with the marketplace.. congrats wayne harpring you built combs.one heckuva motor.
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Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

There are at least 2 gearsets available for the Winters rears, that will get you low enough, to run a higher RPM engine, but that's another issue, you can explain it, but if it isn't understood, nothing happens, any racing, that involves the internal combustion engine, requires a vast knowledge of "enginuity", other wise, you have a "spec" engine. Other than sprint car racing, I know of no other form of motorized racing, that with a few simple, easy to understand rules, do you have such an open opportunity to be creative, and not destroy the "purpose and intent" of TQ racing, that has continued for over 50 yrs, it is the one place left, that lets you "do your thing", and yet have a level playing field to play on. It could get out of control so easy, and go extinct so quick, it is what a lot of people, who understand what makes it work, still enjoy, after all these years. About 15-18 years ago, the engine rules were expanded, to include the coming of the newer engines, but very few have tried. Do your homework, there are lots of untapped possibilities to work with, but you need some "engine-uity". Bob!:)

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

Originally Posted by marko 66:
wasn"t that koenig your dad kicked butt with chain driven ??

Yep, sure was. Car was outlawed in 87. I think I know why they still won't let chains back in, afraid it would be better and that they'd get beat! I guess I could start yelling that this is racecar profiling and discrimination.......LMAO!!! Y'all have fun and here's my gift to all...:26:

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

I like the new rearend acro is working on,but I and most others in this for the fun can't afford or see where it is worth 4 to 5 thousand for a new rearend.By the time you buy the rearend,gears,birdcages and hubs,whatever it takes to convert over is it really worth it?Maybe someday.But we need to survive and grow for now.Bring the upright 600's in to run with us,they will help put people in the stands and help pay for the club to grow without hurting TQ's.Put the wings on them and the fans will like it.We get a little more time to work on our cars between races.I would love to see a 600 chain drive on gas.Buy a 500 dollar engine and drop it in,no 1000 to 2000 to convert to alcohol,just a completely stock 600 gas.Stay with fuel injection so you take away the problems with carbs overflowing leaking ect.Fuel injection works fine and don't leak on a 160 mph bike between your legs,should work on our cars.

Re: Umra/mtqrl
 

Awesome idea. In fact I know quite a few guys that would come if they were allowed to run but that's the problem. I don't think there are enough people that would support allowing them.

Originally Posted by Jrp4554:
Awesome idea. ..... I don't think there are enough people that would support allowing them.

And that is an example of "club racing."

This is where a promoter steps in and makes the tough decision.
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Excellent point
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