Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
 

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
Whichever, it doesn't matter, but you being a fan have your own ideas about what constitutes a race, specifically the Indy 500 and you have your own opinions about what led to its decline in stature and/or relevance.

My "opinions", as you put them, are steeped in research not only in regards to the 500 but IndyCar, motor racing, and the effects of world events on that subject. I think if you and others did the same and allowed yourself to look at this from a critical point of view and throw bias out the window you would find that a lot things that have touted as "fact" over the years are either false or have grown legs that have gotten longer as the years go by.

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
I do find it humorous that you believe the American racers should have changed how and what they race so as to be better suited for racing in the Indycar ranks.

Would you be employed in anything you've done in your life if you were resistant to change? Chances are no. People who are resistant to change are those who will be left behind. What I've always found humorous in all of this need to blame insert other evil name here for whatever is the need to deny the history, I guess it's done in an attempt to tout their side or whatever is right. I mean, shouldn't you all really be mad at USAC? They are the ones that allowed the formula to run rear engine cars, put wings on them, took dirt off the schedule after 1970, and reintroduced road courses in 1964.

If I was a driver that really wanted to race in this series or that race and be successful I sure as Hell wouldn't be slinging dirt at Lawrenceburg every week and if I was around in the 60's and 70's I wouldn't be pulling my best Jim Hurtubise in order to make a statement by pulling into the track with a front engine car or running out on the track.

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
road racing has never been a big draw in the US, it's just not what we like.

Yet, two of the most successful events on the series calendar outside Indy are Long Beach and Road America......go figure. You would also get the ovals you and many desire if you have a strong series that puts butts in the seat at those ovals, but don't think for a minute that road/street courses are going by by. One of the strengths of this series has long been the diversity in it's schedule whether that be dirt, asphalt, oval, or twisty. If you go outside some of these oval centric forums you'll find that many like the direction this series is taking and the newbies who don't understand the history wonder why they ever got away from it to begin with. Believe you me, it will be deals like Alonso that put butts in the seat and eyes on the screen, not the local track champ. But if that local track champ wants to play there is a way....he'll just have to make some changes.

Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
 

There are several one mile dirt tracks around this great country.Reconfigure the suspension,develop a tire for dirt and turn em loose.

Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
 

Originally Posted by Brickyard:
My "opinions"....

I disagree.

Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
 

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
I disagree.

Then feel free to counter me with information that can cited and sourced rather than "I feel", "someone told me", "I hate therefor it must be."

Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
 

Originally Posted by Brickyard:
Then feel free to counter me with information that can cited and sourced rather than "I feel", "someone told me", "I hate therefor it must be."

I realize that I'm wasting my time because nothing I or anyone else says is going to change your mind. That's fine, because all your statistics, links to "white papers", and research isn't going to change anyone else's either. In your lengthy rants you've pretty much trashed USAC, IRL, and people we consider as heroes; dirt racers everywhere. No doubt you have great knowledge of world motorsports history. But after painfully reading your posts, I'm convinced you have no clue about what makes a racer. Being a racer is not developing a word-view business plan in order to market yourself to the rich and powerful. It's about getting dirt under your fingernails at 3 AM in order to rebuild an engine (sometimes us hicks call them motors). It's about trying to scrape together enough money to buy a new tire. And then it's about summing more testosterone than most men will ever have, getting their elbows up, standing on the gas, and RACING. Personally, I don't give a flip that people in Europe (and you) don't care about our racers, We do!

Originally Posted by PJ Wright:
I realize that I'm wasting my time because nothing I or anyone else says is going to change your mind. That's fine, because all your statistics, links to "white papers", and research isn't going to change anyone else's either. In your lengthy rants you've pretty much trashed USAC, IRL, and people we consider as heroes; dirt racers everywhere. No doubt you have great knowledge of world motorsports history. But after painfully reading your posts, I'm convinced you have no clue about what makes a racer. Being a racer is not developing a word-view business plan in order to market yourself to the rich and powerful. It's about getting dirt under your fingernails at 3 AM in order to rebuild an engine (sometimes us hicks call them motors). It's about trying to scrape together enough money to buy a new tire. And then it's about summing more testosterone than most men will ever have, getting their elbows up, standing on the gas, and RACING. Personally, I don't give a flip that people in Europe (and you) don't care about our racers, We do!

Thank you PJ, I was thinking this might be a robot, still could be, but thanks for the"challenge", I doubt Mr Watson would have agreed with any of this nonsense. Bob

Yes let the free tickets, brie and pinot grigio flow. Brickyard,your condescending self-described expertise lends nothing to a thoughtful discussion. It is exactly people like you who ascribe a business plan as a way forward that have ruined nearly every sport in this country. Please reup your subscription to Road & Track and leave us alone.

Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
 

Originally Posted by PJ Wright:
In your lengthy rants you've pretty much trashed USAC, IRL, and people we consider as heroes; dirt racers everywhere.

No where in this thread have I done any of what you claim. However, if you refuse to acknowledge history and fact, that's not on me. And if you want to continue making the claim that you are being shut out by evil and powerful forces who look down upon you like peons, continue on even though it's been cited right here by not only myself but others that a path does exist, that is if you want to do what it takes to get on that path.

I suggest you look at the entry list this year and ask a solid question as to where those guys you want there are and why that is.....the closest one to it is Ed Carpenter and pretty much no one else. So yea, like I've said before, you owned the show after 1996.....but there is an old adage of being careful about what you wish for.....make no mistake they aren't making that same mistake of 20 years ago again. And judging by the uptick in attendance over the past couple of years it appears the ticket payer has spoken as well in regards to what they want. Guys like yourself might have been shut out forever....and it's really sad, because it honestly could have been prevented.

I'm now going to crack open a Budweiser with a ham sandwich since I'm such the snooty fox who's scared to get grease under my fingernails while playing polo with my Uropeein friends.

Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
 

Originally Posted by Brickyard:
No where in this thread have I done any of what you claim. However, if you refuse to acknowledge history and fact, that's not on me. And if you want to continue making the claim that you are being shut out by evil and powerful forces

And no where in my post did I "make the claim that we are being shut out by evil and powerful forces." What I DID say is that despite of your name dropping and blame-gaming virtually every one and everything associated with US open wheel racing (with the blatantly obvious exception of CART and it's supporters) you have little comprehension of what makes a racer race. The more you post, the more apparent that becomes. By the way, my name is Pete Wright. What's yours?

Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
 

Since we have gone way off topic, I'll stay way off topic. To Brickyard, yes, there is a path to Indycar, but that path cannot be followed without bucketloads of money. There is no clear connection from the entry level ranks to Indy in the US unless you are a millionaire or can sweet talk a millionaire. There is no one in the lower ranks of formula car racing who is making a name for themselves hustling a low budget car with hard work and talent. No one who is not involved in the kart ranks knows the progression from karts to Indy. Back in the day, the stars of the sport made their name by racing what was in their back yard. Mario started in a stock car, the Unsers started in their local jalopy or supermod class, Parnelli started in jalopies. This doesn't happen anymore. Now a days, rich kid buys ride in F whatever, wins championship against a bunch of other rich kids, gets offered a ride in next series (make sure to bring another bucket load of money), and so on. Kyle Larson won his ass off in karts, got to race a sprint car, won his ass off again, got into a non wing sprint car and Kunz midget, won his ass off, got a shot at a stock car, won his ass off, made the big leagues. Kyle did have backers who helped make this happen, but he didn't have to go seeking some esoteric path paved with money, he just raced and won, and the next door opened.

Brickyard and Stevensville are correct as unpopular as there comments are. Stevensville is correct in that the result of Tony George's decisions nearly killed Indy car racing. Open wheel and sprint car fans love Tony because their heroes got a chance to race at Indy (I think this was cool too but it didn't lead to success). However, any dispassionate review of what transpired will clearly show this was a train wreck that the Indy 500 and Indy racing is just now recovering from.

CART was formed for many of the same reasons folks criticize USAC today. USAC was not promoting races well, purses were not what they should have been, and generally bad decisions were the order of the day. CART happened because of this and it was clearly the golden age of Indy style racing in terms of attendance and television. It was not the golden age for fans here for the reasons listed but facts are stubborn things and can't be dismissed because you don't like them.

We can all lament that Indy racing sucks because of rear engine cars, foreign drivers, not enough ovals, no grass roots racers, etc. but the facts are the world has changed and the 1960's are gone forever.

Roger and his good old boys club could have played along instead of taking their ball and going home. Pretty sure they had the opportunity but instead elected to go off and run some absurd contradiction to the 500. Either way my hat's off to all of you in this conversation, agree or not it's pretty well articulated. One thing I certainly have an issue with is this path of indy lights and so forth. They still run super modifieds in this country, you would surely think with any race acumen at all, that the stars of that type of racing could easily adapt to the indy cars, yet barely a sniff is given. I guess ultimately it's all a money game boys. The little bit I read of the Gurney letter implies heavily, it's a business. That said indy car should not at all be confused about why their American audience has declined, for them it makes good business sense to hire foreigners with big wallets, and let the star's of American short track racing go race stock cars!

Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
 

Originally Posted by Brickyard:
Then feel free to counter me with information that can cited and sourced rather than "I feel", "someone told me", "I hate therefor it must be."

I don't like how you addressed, "ISF" he made some good points, but you seem to like putting words in people's mouths and then dodge direct questions. I'm sure you are, "king ding-a-ling" on whatever CART board you frequent with all your papers and clipings, but this board is where actual American racers spend time, not so much a fan board for Indy whiners. I don't disagree with what your selected data says, only your conclusions. You, CART, El Capitan and Mr White Pages are all free to have your own opinions derived from the data you collected. Hey your a smart guy, you have a vast vocabulary and collect some interesting data. You see the 500 your way, I get that and I concede that the train didn't first go off the tracks with CART/Penske, it began several years before with some mistakes USAC made. Having said that, it doesn't change what was done after USAC, it just shows the continued chaos that led to today.

My opinion is that what TG tried to do, to move the needle more back towards being an American race with American drivers, with a focus on ovals(we like ovals in this country), was commendable. Ovals are American, like "Baseball, Apple pie, and Chevrolet". Road/Street courses are more of a European thing, I realize early on they ran some Road/Street courses with USAC, but over time America settled on oval track racing. Tony Stewart, Robby Gordon are some notable names that came out of the IRL era and several others that proved that drivers from sprints, offroad and many other backgrounds can get it done at Indy, but CART owners don't pursue our drivers like they should, instead opting for foreign unknowns. Its funny in most of your jabs about where are these guys, you don't mention them... Wonder why? My bet is because it doesn't fit with your narrative of, "TG killed Indy and CART is the best". You say we were sold a false bill of goods, but that isn't so. When you can't pronounce the names of 90% of the field anymore, you don't need anybody to tell you something is wrong, its kinda obvious. We long for AJ Foyt's, Mario Andretti's and all the other greats groomed in this country to race for us. I don't mind if a foreign team wants to come and compete against us, that's fine and I think its what was intended when the race was billed as "International", but it's become exclusive instead of inclusive. Nobody forced the CART/Champcar folks to leave, they chose to. The race stayed in the same place, ran on the same day, only some of the rules and schedule changed. They left because their road race ringers no longer had the advantage and they knew they couldn't just outspend everyone to get the championship anymore.

I know you see the race as some, pseudo-European technological, engineer vs engineer, top speed endeavor. However, there is more to racing than top speed and most fans don't come for a demonstration of terminal velocity or to admire the engineering of a wing or the pushrods on the suspension. The average fan wants to see passing, drivers mixing it up and some drama.

To me it's all beyond correction, much like Nascar, so I'll get up early on Memorial day weekend, watch Monaco and then the rest of my afternoon I will be free to BBQ or something else I actually care about until it's time to go to the track. For years memorial day weekend was the race day to end all race days, kicking the day off with Monaco, then Indy and then the 600 at Charlotte. Watching a couple of drivers thru the years run both Indy and the 600, and having to start in the rear because they usually missed the drivers meeting. Now Indy has its issues, BC won't be there, and I probably won't even watch a lap. Nascar is just as bad, lost in the tall grass with all their gimmicks. So the only standing tradition for me is Monaco and whatever I can get into that night.

This is the end.:22:

Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
 

A timely photo for this topic. Check out photo #1786!

http://www.coastal181.com/weekday_photos.htm