There's nothing wrong with not wanting to run pavement. But if the series was strong and the Championship was worth pursing, meaning it led to bigger things and paid a large point fund, then more teams would run on pavement.

As a fan, which is where I believe the problem is, you could tell me there is a 100k to win pavement race that is going to have 70 cars and a 5k to win dirt race that is going to have 20 cars and I'm still going to the dirt track. Pavement racing is lackluster for the most part. Look across the board. NASCAR has cut the starting field size due to car counts. Indy car isn't what it used to be hardly any pavement series has a serious following. As far as certain pavement races having huge crowds, I'd be willing to bet a large percentage of them are dirt fans just attending for the experience(like the Indy 500). I actually had a friend who left the 500 early to get to haubstadt and watch a sprint car race. Even a great pavement race isn't as exciting as an average dirt race.

I have seen just as many great pavement races as I have dirt races. I have also seen just as many bad pavement races as I have seen bad dirt races. I think if you go to any race with a bias of it's better than this or not as good as that...then it will most likely turn out that way.

For years.... One of the absolute best training grounds for racing was the Speedrome. Night after night some of the hardest racing you've ever seen. Taught drivers to race close and patience. Nobody went to watch for whatever reason and now the only time you can see open wheel cars there is when the Kenyon Series runs there. I'm sure they still put on great races whenever they are there.

Get tire costs under control and you will see more pavement racing. As much as a supporter of the sport Hoosier is.... I have to believe a restricted tire pavement series does not benefit their bottom line and as a company it would be hard for them to put money toward that effort.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

I have been saying the same thing for many years. If you rank all of the different races that you want to see, for most fans, SC cars are very close to the bottom of the list. Especially, if you have to factor in any travel. If I am going to have spend a night in a hotel to watch a race, it definitely would not be a SC race. Thus, as many people want to blame USAC or want to play the remember when game, the truth is that for most people SC races are not as entertaining as the other forms of races. You can't raise the purse without attracting more people, and for the SC product it is going to be very hard to attract more people.

I assume SC stands for stock car

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Your friend shouldn't have had to leave the Indy 500 early to make it to Haubstadt; we saw the winner take the checker, walked to the car, got out immediately; had time to have a good meal at Gray Brothers in Mooresville and still made it to Haubstadt in plently of time for the races.

$1,632.00 if you mount them yourself.

Really?that's what you got out of that?

Seems like car counts have always been lower at the banks. Across all divisions.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Very interesting thread, thanks.

Here is my perspective. I am 54 years old and have been to many, many USAC open wheel events. (notice that word) From a "hey, this is cool lets go" way of thinking I love DuQuoin and Springfield. Why? The fair. The travel, it's an adventure. Make a weekend out of it. Take a Gal! See something (motorcycle museum, I made some friends in DuQuoin, Springfield town is steeped in history) and of course my local "Hoosier 100". Truth be told, the pole sitter wins darn near everytime. You have to really appreciate a guy charging into the top five. I don't enjoy the "Big Cars" as much on the smaller half miles. I used to LOVE the 4 Crown Nationals. I won't go back as the track is horrible dusty. I like Tony Stewart and everything, but call a spade a spade. Eldora's surface SUCKS.

Now to the Pavement. The cars are just magnificent IMO. Here again, the pole sitter more often than not wins the race. I get that. The car counts at IRP (sorry, it's IRP to me but LOR proper) have never recovered from the failed experiment when USAC decided to get in bed with NASCAR. Those "things" were HORRIBLE. That was a dumb idea. If killed the gate at LOR. I don't think NASCAR buying the NHRA did anybody any good either. I live in Indy and fully support LOR. Even the Taxi races but here again NASCAR took away their biggest payday by taking away the XFINITY race and giving it to IMS. This REALLY hurt LOR's bottom line and took one of the best stock car races in the country. (Thank God for ARCA eh?) The sanction fee's are sky high. They ran everybody off, Goodguys, Super Chevy, Mopar Nationals etc.

I have never traveled for paved Silver Crown events either at Memphis or Gateway (a very nice track where I saw several exciting CART events)

As for the cost? Never owned one. I do think the racers should be paid more. Especially the bottom. I think USAC needs to look inward and come up with a solution. The testing issue made me think of all the Pavement Midget guys who did pretty well in the pavement Silver Crown cars. I know it takes a huge amount of money. Wheels, tires, engines, rear ends, steering gear, safety equipment, etc. The comments have been made that there are a lot of pavement SC cars out there sitting around. They are antiques. Racing is ever evolving and at this level by golly if you can afford something better your going to either buy it or develop it.

Racing has reached it's saturation point. Next time your at the track look around. You won't see many 25 year olds in the stands. Younger people are not into cars that much anymore. Lets talk about car owners? Where is the next Junior Kurtz? Johnny Vance? Wilke's? Hoffmans? God bless the Clauson's and Wilson's of the world. (and all the other family operations that put cars on the track) Young people today could care less about cubic inches but more about doo dads in the electronic package (which has made it's way into these forms of racing, you seen these electronic tire bleeders?) The ways to spend money go on and on. Yet the payout to the competitors has stagnated.

We had some pretty hot shoes, guys with real talent. Ryan Newman, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, you know the list. There were others who were extremely good that never even made the transition to Stockcars (Jesus they farked openwheel over) but then again, they PAY FAT MONEY.

The simplest solution that I can come up with is merge the Champcar points with the Silver Crown points. We know that series is not going to run the Dirt Miles, but they would for Team Championship points. You don't think Chip Ganassi would field a relatively in expensive (in his world) dirt car to pick up a 100 points at Springfield? Think about it.

There is no way in hades that you can put a dirt car on a paved track and have a good show. Physics wont allow it.

Hubie

ps - My heart is broken at the loss of Bryan Clauson, A finer young man would be hard to find. This sport has taken many good guys, and those of us who still love it remember their names. God's Speed Wheelman.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

NASCAR was hiring in the 90's and guys were in a hurry to get pavement experience. What does pavement experience get these guys now?

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

they didn't have specialized pavement cars, that was the difference, the cars might be more stable today but not as fun to watch and the racing isn't as good as it was

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

and the racing was much better

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

I'm not sure I understand your post

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Hubie, I don't think Chip Ganassi cares about the USAC silver crown division.Mike Bliss won the 1993 Silver Crown title with one car. It ran pavement and dirt. Please don't tell me that it can't be done now due to physics. What does this mean.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Like was stated earlier. The very make up of the load and the way the suspension works

are you wanting a discussion, or a pissing match

because most of the time I can't tell. It's why I don't post on here much

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Hubie,I don't think the loads and physics are different from 1993. Speedway Illustrated August 2016. Interview with Mike Bliss.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

I've been to two pavement sprint races in my life, The night Staab won IRP and Winchester about three years later. I thought the IRP race was great. Cars getting sideways a bit. Lots of passing.

Went to Winchester three or four years later and there were about five special cars and most of the rest weren't cars normally switched from dirt to asphalt. Only two I remember from that day anyway that were switching were the Smith Brothers. Dustin and Cory.

Anyway the Winchester race was like terrible. Dave Steel in a lowered pavement only tilted motor car lapped up to third. They had NASCAR street stocks at the same show and that was ten times neater.

Anyway. I always thought the PAVEMENT and DIRT PORTIONS OF USAC are what made it a bee line series for NASCAR and prior to that INDY. Fast in a midget on both or fast in a crown on both and you got a head start, So much so that Toyota, Red Bull, Ganassi and others would INVEST IN A DRIVER to run the series two or three years. A year in ARCA or XFinity and then Sprint Cup.

Oh well. I thought they could keep it going at least in the midgets.
You used to have Triple crown events at like Phoenix

So 3rd pays $2000 and 4th pays $1500. Add a test date and you would have to finish 2nd for the tire bill alone. I think a slot machine pays better odds.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

So just like Tony's tantrum your going to tell everybody that makes all these race car parts that they are no longer needed?

How about a spec car? Oh, they tried that already.

This deal has been broken since the took the Dirt Miles off the Championship Calendar in 1971

I don't know Dave, I wrote what I thought. You got about 200 words in this entire thread

what do you think needs to be done


Kurtis Krafts?

:D

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Here’s a little background for those wanting to use the same silver crown car for dirt and pavement. Chuck Buckman and I ran a car for Johnny Parsons in 1989. We had one car for all the races and were pretty competitive. JP finished second as driver and the car finished third in USAC points. These are the parts we used to switch our one frame over from dirt to pavement. Wider front axle with LF/RF brakes and pavement spindles/hubs. Right side steering gear. Motor plate for lowering engine and moving forward abut one inch. Longer driveshaft and torque tube. 6 piston rear caliper with steel vented rotor. Master cylinder to match brakes. If we could have afforded it we would have had a pavement tail tank which mounts lower. Add to this at least 8 pavement shocks and 10 dedicated pavement wheels. If you didn’t do most of these changes you wouldn’t make 10 laps at ORP or Gateway before getting in the fence. Using the same car would be insane.
So yes we used the same car but the frame and engine were about the only thing common between dirt and pavement.
Somebody mentioned tire costs. In 1989 we got all our Goodyear tires for free and all our fuel was free from the Speedway. Those days are gone forever. Even Indycar and NASCAR pay for their tires today.
Silver Crown cars are still the neatest cars to watch on the track but we need to quit pining for the good old days and get behind what’s going on today.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

There are probably 40 pavement Silver Crown cars sitting out there not being used. I can’t see how changing the rules to obsolete them would increase participation at pavement races. JMO
Brian Gerster

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Are you serious? Have you taken a hard look at a sprint car from 1993 and a sprint car from 2016? Have you looked at the lap times from 1993 to 2016? The cars are not the same. Technology has changed racing forever. The same thing applies to silver crown cars. As other posters have stated, there are substantial technology differences from going dirt to pavement.

Do you know why people started building pavement only race cars? Because they could tune the car to make it much faster than a converted dirt car. Do you know why people stopped converting dirt cars to pavement cars? Because they could not compete with the pavement only cars.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

I think we should give the last word on this subject to Brian. As they say he has been there ,done that, and got the t-shirt. He knows more about the business than any of us.If you were given the job of rebuilding the pavement portion of Silver Crown racing what would your plan be.Again , I applaud USAC for rebuilding the dirt side, but for pavement what do we do.

Someone on here said Friday night they were hoping you were going to find a ride for that night.
I think everyone on here wants to find a solution to get the car count up.
Could you please give your opinion on how it might be able to be accomplished?

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Brian, the forum is yours.

Yes Brian.....this is on your shoulders now. Please wear the T Shirt as you read your decree.

I couldn't agree with you more!
Kevin Miller has sat on his butt and not done a thing to try to help protect the investment of the owners by making an effort to keep the pavement side going. If that means going to Hoosier and bargaining a different deal, a different tire, whatever!
How about going to American Racer and seeing how they could help to keep the pavement side of SC (not stock car) going.

I'm afraid we've seen our last pavement race USAC is going to sanction for a very long time. And as far as I'm concerned, that is shame on you Kevin Miller! You should lose your job!

Going to Salem, Winchester, and Gateway isn't going to increase the car counts on pavement. Guys don't wanna run these places. And tracks that have drawn a decent car count in recent years couldn't draw a crowd. I'm not even sure if the product is appealing enough to fans anymore for promotors to take a chance and book a pavement Silver Crown show. Salem is just the the most recent example. USAC has had to lease tracks just to keep the series going the last several years. It's kinda like the SCCA where the track gets leased and all the members show up to race in front of no fans.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

The 13 cars at Salem represents the largest owner/car count at any USAC race. There are 8 or 9 sprint owners and 4-5 midget owners that have attended all the races thus far this year.

I am in a minority, I much prefer pavement racing.... until tire costs can be made affordable trying to build a series is going to be hard. Don't put all the blame on Hoosier if they could build a tire that was cost effective and made good business sence they would.

Well I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure his words were he wasn't enjoying the race. As far as getting car count up, tire cost, tire cost, tire cost, and probably tire cost. But to be honest you could put 40 cars on the track and if you don't have fans show up its all for not. I would attend a pavement race but not if I have other options. Location of pavement tracks hurts me as Salem is the closest and nearly 3 hours away. If say terre haute had a pavement track and it ran the same weekend as a dirt race(dirt Saturday, pavement Sunday) I'd attend both races. But I can't justify driving 3 hours to watch a pavement race when I have one of the best dirt tracks in the country 5 minutes down the road. I don't feel you can blame this on Kevin Miller. He can't put butts in the seats. And as someone else stated in its time the tires were already paid for. I highly doubt that's an option anymore. My favorite race is the 3 crown. I love the big cars and can see all 3 divisions at one place. Heck if they done all 3 divisions at a pavement track I may go. More bang for my buck but that also isn't likely.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

To Hamby 812 and everyone else. Don't you think there is a link between the number of entries and the number of people in the stands.People do not want to go to an event where there are only 13 cars. Start having only 13 cars at all of the dirt tracks around here and tell me there would not be an attendance drop off.If you could announce right now that there would be a Silver Crown race at IRP it will always be IRP>in October and there would be 40 cars you would have a very nice crowd turn out.I have no doubt.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Back in July, they had the HOF/Vogler at IRP. Good weather and they even had vintage cars and late models testing while the SC's weren't on track. Ryan Newman was there running and it was a big weekend in Indianapolis for racing. USAC only brought in 17 cars but there are still heavy hitters and it's a good race.

I think the number of sweat bees outnumbered the fans. It was terrible. Those that were watching were....veteran race fans....It's sad to see the lack of attention that the top level of USAC gets from many outlets.

BC was one that made it a point at the national level to pay attention to what we consider "Local guys" because he insisted they had the talent as well to make it to the big time. Hope there is someone that can make that push again, but they'll never be another BC as committed to making racing so much better.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

I will never say I have the best answers or opinions, but I've always felt that USAC should take a look at a few strategies to help reduce costs all around on pavement and dirt.

Carbon Fiber and Titanium: Outlaw it, there is no real need for these materials. I know in the midgets a steel drive shaft was around $100 or so, while a Ti drive shaft was around $750 or more, then they had the carbon drive shafts for even more. Throw in a carbon body kit and a ti bolt kit and you are looking at a couple of grand extra compared to sheet metal/aluminum bodies and steel bolts.

Shocks: I think this is an area where things have been allowed to get a bit out of hand. Do the cars really need a set of shocks that cost $1000+ per corner? Go to a rule where the shocks are single bodies and can be rebound adjustable but not in car. People will always find ways to build there own and spend more, this is where I don't have the best answer but I am sure some people could come up with a cost effective and good handling shock package.

Tires: As has been mentioned in this post already many times, tires are just a given to be expensive with pavement. The only thing I could see here is to restrict everyone to have to only have 2 sets per race day. Buy them at the track only kind of thing.

General: Have a spine when enforcing rules. I don't just mean engine rules or weight, but the whole rule book. USAC never checked a lot of things after the first race of the year. At the very least enforce the safety rules! Considering recent events, I think now would be a really good time to start enforcing the head clearance rule. I think in the midgets it calls out 4 inches minimum from top of helmet to highest point of the cage. I know for a fact that a lot of drivers are no where near that number.

Testing: We used to test a bunch when running pavement midgets. It helped a lot, but it wasn't totally necessary. It could be argued, but I would say to not allow it.

Beyond that I don't see any major ways of saving costs for the teams. There is a big problem with getting fans to have any interest, I am not a marketing guy so I don' have much to say for how you could improve the fan turn outs, but I agree that without more fans bringing money, it will be difficult to see any purse increase.

I loved racing pavement, I prefer dirt, but pavement had it's own very unique challenges. My opinion, dirt racing is more driver and less car whereas pavement racing is more car and less driver. On the dirt it was easier to take a 10th place car and get 5th, on the pavement it was a real challenge to take a 10th place car and get 9th...

Also, I think getting all three series (midget, sprint, crown) together at more events is a better way to get cars and fans to show up. Why they got away from triple header events is beyond me.

Just food for thought :22:

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Silver Crown racing has had a tough last decade, I don't think anyone can disagree with that. Andy Hillenburg and his staff have done a great job of reviving the series and getting cars back out there to these racetracks, pavement and dirt alike. One of his staff members is Kevin Miller, while we may not agree with every choice he has made (me included), he has done a good job of allowing both Andy and Levi do their jobs and increase both fan and racer attendance across the board for USAC.

When I began reading this thread I didn't want to comment, but the further I read the more I notice one thing in common. Everybody is counted down and out before they even tried, and not many are looking at the good over the bad.

1. Testing - Everyone says that there needs to be testing to be competitive with these large powerhouse teams - I have never tested for the Bowman Racing team since we began racing together three years ago and I only tested twice in my 3 years with 6R, neither of those coming before my first SC win in my third start.

2. One car - What started the struggling times of the SC series? When they decided to make a lot of racecars that already support their series obsolete by implementing the "Next Gen" racecars. There are teams that own both cars currently, yet still only run the dirt races.

3. Low car counts- People are always going to miss races, there are tracks that they don't desire to run for various reasons; size, distance from home, speed, etc. Personally we missed Salem because we only had the resources, time and labor (not money), to prepare for 3 races. We decided to run Gateway and both IRP's because we felt those were our best chances to be competitive and win, which is our goal.

I guess my point is that while it is easy to be critical it is not always the best option. There are a lot of people putting a lot of time and effort into this series to try and bring it back to it's former glory, none with the intention of running the series into the ground. But to bring a series back they need support from car owners, sponsors, fans, drivers, promoters, etc. While today's SC series may not be the same as it has been in the past it doesn't mean that it is bad. You still have a great rivalry between two young racers at the top of their game battling for a championship while competing against a number of dirt or pavement "specialists."

--Tanner Swanson

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Thank you Tanner for a voice of reason.You do it,we don't. My question would be how do we get these car owners out that currently have pavement cars.Again, I imagine that is not an easy answer either.As an aside, I think what your Brother did over the Memorial Day Weekend ranked as one of the most incredible achievements in recent memory.It does not get nearly enough credit or PR.I hope he sees this.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Has anyone ever wondered why there are so many different Winged 410 series/ local tracks? How about the number of non wing series/ local tracks. Midget racing also has many different series, and a growing number of local tracks. How many groups sanction Silver Crown cars? When was the last time a promoter held an "Outlaw" Silver Crown race?

It comes down to basic economics. Supply equals Demand. There is a lot of demand for winged 410, non-wing, and midget racing, and there is a good supply of those races. There is very low demand for Silver Crown cars and hence there is a small supply. If you were a promoter and could choose to promote one race a year and that race had to be a money maker, what class are your picking?

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

Nonwing sprints and midgets in general are going the dinosaur route, less of them around over time and most that are still around are on three legs. The extinction started on the east coast and is heading west. I don't care if you have 12 cars racing, it's 12 more then we have here and I'd support it while you can.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

"someone please post a well thought out response"
I'm pretty sure everyone is thinking as well as they can, some struggle at it more then others.

Re: Lack of cars on pavement
 

That was just always what I thought. Why spend the money to build, maintain, race a car and/or cars that you're only going to use a handful of times a year? There were only 5 SC races on pavement scheduled this year and 1 rained out.