I do not see in the rules where it says they are allowed. Is there rules out somewhere that say they are permitted?

I think some people are confused because the engine rules are laid out in 2 separate sections and the mini sprint rules seem to be more open. If they have the same restrictions it would be good to add that to the specific motorcycle engine section.
Racers are great at finding gray areas.

If it doesn't say you can't why would you not be able to. Rules in writing are governing standards. They have a name for rules that are not prescribed in writing, it's called folklore.

They (the rules) will be added. Pistons, cams, etc have the same rules as the driveshaft engines when it comes to what can be changed.

Honest mistake. There was a lot to sift through, and it was simply an oversight.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Andy

Seems to me like you are reading a little more into the rules than is really there. Just like the National Mini Sprint rules that MMSA endorsed a few years ago the Midget guys hired Lawyers to write their rules instead of racers. My suggestion to you would be to if you are changing the MMSA rules revert back to the rules that Bill and Allen put together years ago and shred every copy of that ******** set of rules that you have been following. I read stock production motorcycle motors with no aftermarket rod or piston change. (time for clarification)

The way I read the rules is that any car legal to race MMSA would also be legal to race the D2 division and visa versa if the D2 Midget was chain drive.

Like my prostate Motorcycle engines do not have weak rod problems but weak oiling problems. Every rod I have ever broke, broke because it seized and locked up on the crank due to lack of lubrication before it broke into half a dozen pieces, and the funny thing is it has always been the same rod>>so maybe I only need to buy one rod.

Sure hope you get your rules simplified a little. KISS

It's nice to have your insight and fun butting heads with you again. Hopefully when things get going and under control the MMSA and USAC D2 can co-sanction some races. Could you get that old water truck down here in the barn yard it's starting to dry out a little down here.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

OK, good

That ******** of rules led to the best year the series has had since the first year. I agree it needs simplified. I agree restricting items that help longevity is a step backwards.

It's also a hell of a lot simpler than what you have here.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

They did not invite me to the rules meeting, Go figure. But from my observations are the rods are not the weak link in either engine. Perhaps stronger rod bolts for the automotive engines but stock rods at 6500rpm's should work fine for quite a long time. Now pistons lets see, many cycle motors leave the factory at 13 or 13.5 to 1 compression ratio. some after market pistons might bump things up a half ratio or so, quite ample to perform well with Methanol.

The auto engine may be as low as 9 to 1 compression ratio. At that ratio they will probably drop off a little power when converting to Methanol.

So just like MMSA and most Mini Sprint groups I would mandate "Stock Engines" for motorcycle engines. Drop all the gobbly goop about ecm's and ways of altering them.

For the automotive engines I would allow them aftermarket pistons, in fact since most aftermarket pistons are for huffers or street cars and do not take into consideration Methanol powered Midget racers I would suspect that the piston makers come up with a piston with more compression built into them for this application.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Andy

The MMSA season's success was probably because of the Bradley boys and not those rules Andy. I have faith that the Bradley boys can out do the current rules and get them down to 2 pages double spaced.:)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Allen was a smart man. He went to the stock R1 at a time nobody thought you could give up 200cc and win. He won. He also saw tough times coming for the racing economy 10 years ago. The last time I talked to him he said, "If you keep mini sprints affordable, this class will grow and grow." He passed a lot of that on to Andy.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

now that there is rules is there going to more than one track in indiana using them?

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Dirt

I don't know who you are but when Allen put that stock R1 motor in a mini sprint, the 1200cc mini sprints were on a respirator. To heck with the 200cc's those were $10,000.00 racing motors with a life span of only half a dozen races. You did not race with only one motor you needed one spare and one back at your engine builder.

I still remember Allen's first R1 test race at Thunder Valley. He put his car on the back of the field and took off like a bat out of hell. Well his driver-mechanic whose name we will not mention here did not tighten the counter sprocket and the test race was over in a few laps. He went on to win countless AMSA races.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Dad,

I am Brad Funk from Illinois or Illinoise as our hoosier friends like to say. I first met Allen in 06. I hauled my ailing ZX11 all the way to Lawrenceburg just to pit near Allen and see what he was doing with the R1's. I could only afford to kept that old thing running a few races a year. He was more than willing to help me switch to a R1, even though I built my own chassis and was to fat to fit in a ERC. The man loved this class. When we started a club in Illinois, Allen sent 2 cars over most weeks to help us get started.

I don't see how the car engines will keep up with the liter bike engine? 200 lbs less weight requirement and they make more power stock. bike engines will last 3-4 seasons without being freshened up and throw cam sprockets, head gasket and tune and you're looking at 170 whp easy.
I thought it would be interesting to race D2 midgets competitively but also race some bucket list races with the same package. Ie chili bowl, midget week etc. but without being able to put a K20 head on the K24a1 seems like they will be dogs and there is no use in running with the midgets. I would run a short track national race with 270hp but definitely not with 200. So that's what intrigued me to do a non chain drive car but I think the liter bike engines will be superior.
I think this D2 deal is awesome and definitely something that needed to happen for a long time.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Brad

That would be Allen.:) :) My grand parents lived in Walpole Il right between McClainsboro and Eldorado I think. Gran Pa was an Oil Magnate or at least I thought so, he took care of a bunch of old oil wells.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Hustler

And USAC placed a restrictor on the Honda Motor. If the Honda motor won't get up and go ditch it. The little GM motor seems to be the motor of choice the later the better. They race the Ecotec I guess soon to be D2 Midget at the shootout. D2 cars can run the Chili Bowl ask Johnny Murdock, But they really don't like the chain drive cars there, Maybe we should have the US attorney General check that out???

We manage to outrun quite a few National Midgets when we race or chain drive car at Montpelier In. and that track is closer to 3/8 mile.

And I wouldn't put a lot of money on the chain drives either.


Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Hustler

Question, I'm not familiar with the Honda K motors. What makes the k20 a better head than the k24? The thing I noticed on the net was that the k20s were pretty potent. It looks like they had a lot of compression and twisted them pretty tight as opposed to the longer stroke k24. I am quite wrong a whole lot of times but if I had a midget class limited to 2.4 liters I would sure let a guy with a little 2 liter run with me, kind of like the 2.0 Duratec?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Short story the Honda K20 A2 head flows much better whether it is stock or ported , since I am late to this & five laps down , could some one summarize what is up , cuz I am to lazy to run thru all these threads , podcasts et al BwaHahaaa!!!!

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Roy

It reads like a "Dime Store Novel" Started out with me making a post about the USAC D2 Midgets were going to be on "Racin with D.O." a pretty good interview. http://jackslash.com/podcast/

It then went on to engines and rules like these things always do.

It was followed by a little kettle stirring from another racing group.

And now we end up on peoples fears about the little Honda K20 Motor.

If the K20 is that darned good why not let it race???

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

OK now I'm a little confused. There is a post on IOW about the Powri D2 series and one about the USAC D2 series. I have heard that both series are using the same rules for now. This post says Powri reserves the right to adjust the rules to keep competition between the 1000cc mini sprints and the ecotecs and other automotive engine powered cars equal. If Powri adjusts the rules, is USAC going make the same adjustments? What's going to happen if one guy with a 1000cc mini sprint wins most of the Powri D2 races early in the season, and one guy with an Ecotec wins most of the USAC D2 races early in the season? If one guy dominates most of the races with a mini sprint, will all 1000cc cars be adjusted? My friend's Dad ran a 4 cylinder hobby stock a few years ago where some of the guys wanted to limit them to American made cars only (whatever that means anymore), and others wanted to let foreign made cars run. They tried to have a rule like this to keep them equal, but it never really worked very well.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

???? Has USAC released any rules????? Are the rules on their website?? Or has someone just said these are the rules??

www.midwestd2midgets.com

There is a tab for rules at the top of the page.

So I have read the rules a few times and I am wondering one thing. I don't see where it specifies if you run a 1000cc bike motor that it has to be chain drive. TQ's run bike motors via shaft drive (not just the Honda with the cut case). If someone else sees that let me know but according to those rules it looks like that would be legal. The only reason I'm asking is that the bike motors might be better performance wise. You would obviously still have to meet the minimum weight rule for a shaft drive car which is 200 lbs. more which might negate any performance advantage. Just throwing it out there.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

I never thought I would be reading that people thought the lowly little Mini Sprint was such an awesome racing machine. I and several others have been saying it for years and now it seems to be common knowledge that "MINI SPRINTS ARE GREAT".

We have been racing Mini Sprints since the early 90's. We started with the 600cc Uprights. Most of these cars were powered by the then new and revolutionary Honda F2 motorcycle engine. This little engine was something else. Honda had taken a major jump in motorcycle design when it came out with that little engine. It produced 90 Horsepower with only 600cc's or 30 cubic inches. We used the same chassis and running gear as a full Midget. In fact our second car was a one off chassis built by John Godfrey then building the Stealth Midget. Basically a midget chassis with a smaller top frame rail. John was the perfect guy to build as Mini Sprint because before Stealth john actually worked for another chassis builder that built Mini Sprints I think it was Stallard.

At this time the big boys in Mini Sprints were the 1200cc cars. They on the otherhand were powered by the conventional cycle motors of the day the 1200cc Suzuki and Kawasaki. These motors were large and heavy and required a lot of Money to make them perform. The guys up front were spending thousands of dollars with people like Orient Express and Hank Scott, engine builders for drag racers to run up front. They were very short lived and the 1200cc cars were dying from the inside out. You could race a Midget for what these guys were spending on Mini Sprints.

We had raced or little cars with the AMSA 1200cc Mini Sprints a couple of times and always managed to run up front racing against them. When Jerry found out we were only 600cc's he asked us to please find someplace else to run and banned us from competing with them. The 600cc class was growing and the 1200cc cars were in decline.

In 1999 Yamaha was intent on becoming competitive in motorcycle racing. They introduced the R1 and R6 motorcycles. They were small compact and very powerful. We installed a R6 on our 600cc car and went on a wining streak. Allen Rupenthal of ERC Racing was racing with us then and took notice of the little Yamaha's performance.The 600cc class was still growing and the 1200cc cars were in trouble. Allen's profession was building Mini Sprints. He reasoned that if the R6 was such a game changer could the R1 do the same thing. He acquired an R1 Motor installed it into a 600cc chassis and left the 600cc cars to race with the 1200cc AMSA. The R1 was just as powerful for it's size as the R6 was. Allen began wining races and selling cars.

This move by Yamaha also caused Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki to take notice, and soon the 1000cc pocket rockets were everywhere. The AMSA began a growing spurt supported by all these new 1000cc motors and the old 1200cc motors disappeared from the scene to be replaced by cheap very powerful 1000cc motors. The AMSA grew so fast that soon 30 to 40 cars were not an unusual site in the pits.

Success can also cause problems. Although a weight limit was set by the AMSA they had no scales to enforce the rules. Jerry Teague the owner of the AMSA finally invested in a set of scales. This did not set too well with Allen. At about this time Bill May another prominent figure in Mini Sprint racing decided he wanted to come out of retirement and wanted to start another group. There were enough cars to actually support another so why not. The MMSA was formed with Allen Rupenthal as Owner and Bill May Race director.

Now we have COMPETITION between the two groups. To build his numbers Allen actually rented race cars to racers that were thinking about racing. The two groups carried on all the time building numbers mostly because of the availability of inexpensive power plants. The cycle Manufactures were also competing each one took turns on producing the most powerful motors. We had an unlimited supply of inexpensive motors and the sky was the limits.

Not So>>>other uses for these motors were being developed. We first saw the Bandits small cars that looked like race cars of the 50's, then along came the Mod Lite small cars designed like the open wheel modified, then we had the Mini Stock cars NASCAR wana be's and finally the sport car guys came out with several 1000cc classes for road racing.

All this time the 1000cc Mini Sprints were growing and competing with one another for market share. In 2010 Jerry and the AMSA managed to get a race for the 1200 cars at the Tulsa Shootout a major accomplishment for the Mini Sprint Racers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf1nrUunvBI
We had switched over to the MMSA that year but wanted to attend, so we changed car numbers got a driver and gave him a fictitious name and home town and entered. The Shoot out is neat but it is 99% waiting and 1% racing. The Ecotecs were also there racing I think for the second year and there car count wasn't too good. I watched their races with my trusty stop watch and I'll be darned they were turning the same times as the Mini Sprints. I though at the time that the two classes would and could race very well with one another. We did pretty good at Tulsa and I came back home and made my first post on IOW stating that the two classes should combine for the good of both classes.

For the last 5 years I have been pushing the idea and finally it has come to be. They decided to incorporate with a National rule plan, maybe a good idea maybe not. For some reason rules by committee tend to get complicated and unenforceable and filled with unimportant gobbly goop that just muddies the water. Rules made by a concerned owner-dictator seem to be simple concise and easy to enforce.

We have now entered into a new competition between D2 Midget classes, Mini Sprints Classes, and then again 1000cc mini Sprints and automotive powered Midgets within the same class. I love "COMPETITION" it has a tendency to make things better, it keeps people striving to out do the other and in turn things improve. In the next few years the competition will continue and things will improve if we can keep competition engineers from going in and attempting to fix a problem that may only exist in their minds. We don't need regulator we need innovators.

"In my own humble opinion" the race group or race motor that comes up with the biggest bang for the buck for will be the winner and in doing so racers will eventually be the real winners.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

No answers yet on this question,guessing this isn't going to be a class with any interest in this area!!

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

99

This is the Face Book Page for Indiana D2 racing. I don't believe there will be a track hosting them full time this year. I think a decision was made to tour within a small radius inside Indiana. So I guess you could say that several tracks have adopted the rules. The rules adopted apply to both USAC and PowrI. The schedule will probably be posted on their FB page when finalized.

Check Out Their FB Page:) https://www.facebook.com/MidwestD2Midgets/

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

......"For some reason rules by committee tend to get complicated and unenforceable and filled with unimportant gobbly goop that just muddies the water".........

Dad,
You got that right. A zebra is a horse designed by a committee!:6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

MAN, I'm so glad I don't do this for a living any more! I have not checked in here for a very long time, but you guys are still having the same discussion you were having last time I did. For that matter, you're still having the same discussion you were having in about 1999 before we started on the Focus program!

I admire those of you who are trying to do some good for the sport and I wish you all the luck in the world. You'll need it - you're dealing with Morons.

Keith :32: :deadhorse:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

This is a great discussion. For several years out here in Colorado, one track ran exactly what D2 midgets are in this discussion. Older midgets and 1000cc Lightning sprints. No weight rules at this track. Results were more races won by lightning sprints, so they are us lightning guys disconnect our shifters thinking that we were shifting to win. But, bottom line was great racing. Now, car counts have grown in this area, and lightning sprints run 20 or more cars per night , and midgets running round 20 per night. But, the concept brought out the cars to the race track, and that' s what we needed to help both classes grow. On another subject, it was mentioned in this thread that their is a shortage of 1000cc motors. I Don't see any shortage. Looked on eBay just now at several different popular 1000 cc motors, and lots for sale, between $1500 and $4000 depending on year and model. I bought 4 spare stock zx10 motors last year for myself (which should last me several years) for low $$$. I love the D2 concept if it gets more cars to the track, and it might just do it. It has worked well for the SSMS in Florida, and should bring a bunch of midgets out of mothballs that feel they cannot compete with the Toyotas and Esslingers that many of us cannot afford.

I personally think everyone should adopt the D-2 rules for wing and non winged. I don't like the rear tire rule or only PC-V rule. Both the tire rule and ONLY PC-5 don't allow people to cross over with out spending money that is specifically for one group but not the other.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Air

Help me out what is the PC-V rule?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Power commander five only, no rosson, bazzaz or other fuel management systems.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Air

Possibly because the committee does not know too much about the subject.

A good way to word this rule would be:
1. Aftermarket fuel management systems will be allowed capable of managing both fuel curve and and ignition timing curve.



We don't care who makes the darned thing unless somebody is getting a little money in return, then it is very:D:D IMPORTANT.

Guhl sure doesn't have the market tied up on re mapping ECM's (actually he got in a little late) as Engler is not the only maker of fuel Injection for these things. (probably the nicest guy making them) Nor does Power commander own the market on ECM altering devices.

They want to sound knowledgeable when in fact they don't have a clue.:)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Any programmable ignition/fuel injection systems are allowed

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Bob

Any "Add-On or Piggy-Back type programmable ignition/fuel device will be allowed."

The add-on piggy-back description would preclude the expensive to buy and very expensive to program stand alone units like Motec, Aem, and Haltec ECM's.

That was a quick clarification of that rule, much like the Wayne Davis style. "Nip it in the Bud.:) " It will also save valuable trees as it cut the rule book down 1/3 page.;)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Great, thanks for the clarification. Now I hope poweri follows suit.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Reading through the rules a little slower I noticed several points that were kind of confusing to me.



A------A protective cover may be used on the top of the tail tank providing it is no more than 9 inches in height, 12 inches in length and not wider than the top (head rest) of the tank.>>>>>What are they talking about??


B-----Only chain driven or driveshaft driven cars are allowed.>>>What other drive system is available?



C----- Metal chain guards are required for chain driven cars. Chains must be located within the frame rails. Chain guards must be designed in a manner to completely shield and protect the driver and fuel tank from the chain. The chain guard must be made out of stainless, mild steel, or aluminum (.125 minimum for aluminum).
Chain guards must extend from the firewall to the rear of the sprocket on top and from the top of the chain to the floor pan. The guard must also extend from the firewall to the back of the seat on the side of the driver. Chain guards must be designed so as to not allow chains to damage or puncture the fuel tank in the event they become loose from the sprocket or engine.

This rune is not too realistic in requiring the chain guard to protect the fuel tank. Have you checked the thickness of your chain guard lately??


D------Engine Management Systems may use the following sensors: MAP (manifold absolute pressure), TPS (throttle position sensor), Crank, Cam, Water temp., Oil temp., Oil Pressure, Oxygen sensor, Fuel Pressure, IAC (idle air control, MAT (manifold air temp.), and EGT.>>>>Left out Mass Air Flow Sensor.


Better clarification now than later. The automotive rules just don't ring clear at all to me instead of any motor 2.4 liters or smaller they have actually limited it to 7 specific motors. As a racer I like to experiment and a lot of racers also like to experiment and when you rule out the ability to experiment you also loose a few racers.

Watch out for that little Chrysler Motor guys.:) It will probably be a game changer.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Case in point.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

DAD, a little overa week ago, I became the somewhat proud owner of a midget, danged near complete, needs some TLC, but for the most part, complete, the guy started on it, and either ran out of money or lost his plan, anyway, all new shocks, wheels, front axle and spindles, arms etc, power steering, bladder tank, most everything except a radiator tray, and seat, however, it has a 2 liter, twin cam Neon in it, and after reading these rules, I may have made yet another mistake, course I like to play, but am short on pay, and without doing at least a little work on it, I think it's a boat anchor, I ain't much into Chrysler stuff, but this one kinda gets my paddle turning, and I wondered a long time ago, why I didn't just buy a sprint car and be done with it, I hate "stock" classes, nothing could be any more expensive than trying to keep it stock, yet run good, even if it's limited to just one make and model, it gets even more out of reason, could be a nice car, is not bad as is, just got anxious I guess, probably be another one sitting! Bob