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I just what to know what we are letting run with this class. I am bringing a 600 cc MINI SPRINT. Running with 1000cc and some stock block low budget midgets should be fine. But if you are letting $15000 dollar motor midgets I am staying home. I am not driving from indy to get run over. Hell I have less than $15000 in my whole car. Was also thinking about bringing a sidewinder too. Please let me know asap so I can figure out what I am doing.
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Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Okay, I race strictly non-wing, and primarily with the Montpelier Midget series. I have a chain-drive, motorcyle-powered car that is dimensionally identical to a Midget, and in the hands of a more capable driver could probably finish mid-pack. My best feature finish last year was 11th, 3 laps off the pace; my goal this year is to finish a Main on the lead lap. If I were in a Focus or Ecotec powered car I may have ended up 2 laps down once or twice. A Gaerte or Pontiac, probably not much better. An Esslinger or Fontana, I probably would have put up in Harold's shiny new catch fence.
Point is, where do you draw the line? Are just the Esslingers, Fontanas or TRDs Midgets? Do you include the Gaerte's and Pontiacs, even though they probably would be back markers at a POWRi or USAC show? Are Foci and Ecotecs Midgets, or something inferior? There are certainly those among us who can tell the difference between the varieties of power in the field at MMS, but from sitting in the stands there I can assure you there are more who cannot, and I would hope the ones who can could appreciate the effort being put forth on the track regardless of what is motivating the vehicle. And the variety has combined to produce one heck of a show; come up and see for yourselves. Take another class of race car; Modifieds. Are the guys who run the big-block, aero-bodied East Coast mud busses upset that UMP and IMCA have "Modified" classes? Then you have B-Mods, E-Mods (what happened to C & D?). Mod Lites are rightly called "Lites" because they are physically smaller, nothing to do with power choice, but there's plenty for the "casual" modified fan to be "confused" about; is anyone calling for the heads of IMCA and UMP to be put on a pike because they sully the sacred name "Modified"? |
I think wingless mini and echotec times are nearly the same. Winged mini's run as fast as midgets on most tracks. More skill needed to keep the midgets right side up.
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Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by mudracer98: Now as far as the million dollar question what should be call this. We know that this is not a USAC or POWRI Midget show. But then what do you call them? One group of people are upset with calling them Division II or Sportsman Midgets. Then we have another group upset that we are calling them midgets. This is something that we do need to get together on and come up with a name that the majority of people can live with. I do agree there needs to be some kind of distinction between the different cars. Bottom line is I know this race will be just as good of a race that took place back in December with POWRI and I hope that everyone can come out and see this event. |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Amen Jay, amen.
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Thanks. That's all I needed to know. I just didn't want to come run with high dollar midgets in a 600 cc upright. I would be way to under powered. See you guys there.
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Avon,
"Now as far as the million dollar question what should we call this you ask?" N.O.E.M.M.? National Original Equipment from Manufacturer Midget Series, relating to stock engines. Factory Midget? Stock Midget? P.B.M. Production Based Midget P.B. Midget Series What's everybody think about those? Danny Williams, JR. |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by welder: It is a start maybe we need to start a facebook page and see what the drivers and fans suggest. Would be no different than a new sports team having a contest to name the team. |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Jay
Steve has the race advertised as a Lightning Sprint Race at the DuQuoin Center.http://stevenaceracing.com/Mini%20Sprints.htm With his permission we agreed to allow the stock block Midgets run with us also in hopes of a better car count. Promoters love car count to a degree. So hopefully the Mini Sprint Racers + the other Midget sized race cars should provide a car count and maybe help out the purse also. Mud if you have a Sidewinder bring it down they are on the card also. This has been a great debate with very few threats of reprival the question is still in the air. What do we call a chain drive Motorcycle powered Midget framed race car. It is plain we share nothing with Sprint Cars and an awful lot with the Midget racer. Why is Midget such a sacred name that it can not be divided into classes. We have 1/4 Midgets since changed to .25 Midget probably for PC reasons, they have many classes under this umbrella. We have 1/2 Midgets, I guess they are obsolete now, we have Micro Midgets they morphed into Jr. Sprints and now Mini Sprint each of these divisions having many sub divisions, we have 3/4 Midgets with variations all over the USA, we have Echo tec Midgets, Focus Midgets, and Kenyon Midgets. Then we have Mini Sprints who relinquished their name to the Micro Midgets racers and who performance wise probably have more in common with Midgets than any of the other classes named and they get stuck with a name like Lightning Sprint that has no resemblance what so ever to what they are. Talk about truth in advertising? and Politically Correct? How would you like to pay out your hard earned money to watch a Lightning Sprint Race and get to the race track only to find a bunch of Midgets.:5: Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Personally, I like D-II of all the suggestions trotted out, although putting any kind of qualifier in front of Midget seems to upset one camp, and calling those guys anything with Midget in the name at all tweeks another.
There is one compound name already out there that sort of makes all this fuss a little funny; it's a Motorcycle-powered car, but it has a shaft drive; where the heck does THAT fit into the argument? The name; Kenyon Midget. If it's good enough for Mel... |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Jim
If only we could get Mel to adopt Us.:):):);) Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by welder: Danny It's like when I met my wife. I'll know it when I hear it.:) It will just feel and sound right. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Jim
In response to D II Midget> Me too!!! Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Just got this message from Steve things are looking really good so far.
We have pre entries from 8 states. Don't miss this ! www.stevenaceracing.com |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by DAD: We have racers from several different organizations: USAC-DMA (Dirt Midget Assoc.) Engines are: Quad 4...Ecotec...Focus Powri-OWS (Outlaw Midget Series) Focus...Ecotec...Quad 4...Motorcycle powered midget (Lightning Sprints) SSMS (Southern States Midget Series) Focus...Ecotec...Quad 4...Honda...MPM (Lightning Sprint) ARDC (American Racing Drivers Club)*Nationals Series* Older National 166 push rod motors (with Restrictions) 4 of those guys ...NO MPM MMSA (Midwest Motor Sports Association) MPM 1000cc BAM (Budget American Midgets) Ecotec...Focus...MPM IMRA (Illinois Midget Racing Series) Focus...Ecotec...MPM Kenyon Midgets MPM (shaft drive) BMARA (Badger Midget Auto Racing Association) Restricted National Engines...Ecotec...Focus...Duratec...Honda...No MPM IRS (Illini Racing Series) 4 cly engines with different restrictions...no MPM ILS (Illinois Lightning Sprints) MPM (Chain Drive only)...They are however going to have several events with BAM in 2015 WIMS (Wisconsin Illinois Mini Sprints MPM (Chain Drive Only) SOLS (Southern Ohio Lightning Sprints) MPM (Chain Drive Only) ELS (Empire Lightning Sprints) MPM....looking to race with OMS and DMA this year so they are looking at allowing 4 cly stock production engines in the future We at the GDN will have a promotors round table on Sat. morning from 9-11 meeting for breakfast...location TBA As you can see there are several Series/Clubs/Associations that will be here....look at the 1 thing we are....90% of everyone that races is a "MIDGET" or a "CONVERTED" midget to chain drive...yes we are MIDGETS...some are WINGED midgets.... If you want to be heard at this round table please tell your Organizations representative what to ask about or atleast take notes back to your series. WE... all of US as a GROUP (whole) can do more as far as a "corporate" sponsor in numbers...a GOOD insurance policy for all and a good sum of point payout at the end of the year...separate from your own series payout. Not saying to "CHANGE" your rules or your name just looking to fly under 1 large banner....We are not NATIONAL at all...we are all Regional...but under 1 banner or entity as Division II Midgets we can be. Division-2 or D-2 Midgets will entice sponsors more so than "Sportsman" or Lightning or the word Mini. Marketing 300 racers or more as a whole is and will be more attractive than marketing 20 or so different racers in each series. What's in a name? Everything, when it comes to marketing. D-2, yes just like NCAA or Baseball farm teams...Hell you could even go with Division Double A midgets but then when you write AA midgets in someone's mind it will read.... Alcohol Anonymous for little people. Again we are a Division II style of midget...as of right now we ARE NOT a national brand, but we damn well sure could be. D-2 Winged Midgets and D-2 Midgets can be of the same entity without much confusion at all. Lets look "DOWN" the road instead of "AT" the road. Hopefully with the race next week in DuQuoin and the Gator"DIRT"Nationals in Florida, with all entities coming together we can discuss it and see what happens as we go into the year...We just need to get our "OWN" Entity in place so WE ALL can reap the benefits and if you want to go vacation in New England you can take the racers with you or at any given region of the US. |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Wayne
Do you know whether or not Jimmy Olson will be bringing his rear engined Chain Drive VW to Florida. I understand that Slim was at the Indy Expo this last weekend and told a few people that Jack Harvey had designed a new bolt on cage to bring the car into compliance. I also heard a rumor that Steve Grafton has managed to get his hands on one of Mel's V8 Suzuki Motors and installing it in his Kenyon Midget as we speak in his search of that First Gator win. Got to go now it's 4:10 Am and they are lining up the sim main event right now and I came up with the outside pole. Wish me luck. I got old "Smoke" on the inside of me, think I will drop er down to low gear and out drag race him to turn one.;);) Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Just a reminder that pre-entry forms need to Arrive by Tuesday.
If you are needing to.submit a last minute entry please send me a PM. |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
How I feel every time I see the word "Echotec"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B75hxwQCUAEh6uI.jpg:large |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by KJHolley: |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
I agree, please quit advertising Midgets. They are doing the same thing in Florida, the Gator Midget Nationals. I seen Tim Clauson even questioned the Gator Midget Nationals and it defiantly got me excited because I thought MIDGETS were racing in Florida. It is misleading to the fans and a sim racer like myself and people who own FULL MIDGETS. From my past sim experience a TQ is a TQ, a 600 or sidewinder a 600 or sidewinder, a mini sprint is a mini sprint, a focus is a focus or ecotech or Honda DII whatever they are this week and a Midget is a Full Up 400HP Midget with the driveline running between the drivers legs with an in and out box and takes a push truck to start it. If its Midgets that are advertised then I say let USAC, POWRI, NEMA, BMARA, ARDC and any true full midget race. Not dogging any of smaller engine sized race cars. In my sim experience (I know Its just a sim game or armchair racer) I enjoyed the TQ's and the 1200 Mini Sprints as well as I enjoyed the Full Midget. I think what Montpelier, Kokomo and even the Rumble series is doing for Midgets is great. But you are all race fans and or owners and competitors and you know the difference and know they are not true Full MIDGETS. But hey Im just a Sim Racer. :32:
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Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by red70racer: I've never heard of a midget "echotec" |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by bsmith8: If you are young enough maybe we can get you out of that chair. I love mine but given the chance to go racing or sit in this chair and bang at these Keys I'll take racing every time. We race with the midgets at Montpelier (in fact I participated in their first organizational meeting). We manage to out race quite a few of the full Midgets with our sub midget race car. As a sim racer the chance of you getting into a full Midget or 410 Sprint is slim to none. The prospect of getting a sub Midget car is very promising. I have seen good race ready race cars sell for less than $5000.00. Not cheap but this number is achievable. Unfortunately wealth is wasted on the old people. No problem we accept older guys living out their dream all the time and welcome them into the Fraternity of Racers. We race because we LOVE it. If you LOVE it lets work on getting you into a sub prime Midget. Do you learn how to back peddle in sim racing? Can you feel the car getting up against the cushion and driving off of it. Do you ever run into a big old hole or rut? We do all that stuff and love doing it, you probably could also with just a little effort. Another thing that would help a lot is if the race track owners would invest in making smaller and wider race tracks. The added action would only increase the crowd size. They will all be standing the entire race so they wouldn't need seats. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Bsmith8,
You must be rather dense.... My "d2", "ecotec". Whatever the hell you want to call it midget has the driveline running between my legs and must be push started by a push truck. no starter, no clutch. as do most "insert name here" midgets. if your experience comes from SIM racing you have no valid opinion on this matter. If you're going to slam a class atleast have your facts straight lol. |
This is an interesting discussion. It seems the guys who blew huge amounts of money with Esslinger and Stanton are a little on the salty side. How dare you call your car a midget, even though it's the same Spike, Beast, DRC or Bullet that they have. Same wheels, tires, rear end, steering, axles front and rear. But, and this is a big But, you put an Ecotec in there that only cost $10,000 new and will last for years. They went out and spent over $25k + on that reverse head Esslinger so only they can call their race machine a midget! I don't want to hear how the fans will feel ripped off. It seems to me that plenty of fans enjoyed the races up through the 70's when guys were running VW's that were not pumping out 350-400hp. If E. Hahn told everyone that next years Chilibowl was an Ecotec only race and the same 325 guys showed up to race, I would bet the stands would continue to stay filled all week.
Someone told me once that It takes a real man to wheel a sprint car around a dirt track. It's starting to look true as those guys could care less if anyone or thing with 4 open wheels calls themselves a something something Sprint car. I don't see them getting all bent out of shape about a 270cc two stroke being called a sprint car. Just get over yourselves. And for the chain drive cars, who really gives a #%*€. It's a race car, who cares. I saw someone bring up insurance and the danger of the chain. Please, 100's of tracks run with them with no issues. You would think they are flying into the stands on a weekly basis and maiming women and children. And no offense to sim racers, but has it really gotten to the point now that sim racers are telling us the subtle differences between a 1000cc car and a powri/usac midget? I knew the day would come when everything we do and experience will be done on our computers, I just thought it would be long after I was gone. If it's a certain size, its a midget. Stamp it. |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
apex
I think a famous racer ones said "You can go out and manhandle a Midget around a race track, but if you think you can go out and do the same thing with a Sprint Car you are just beating your meat":) Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
If Bsmith8 is the same Bsmith who drove a number 8.....he's driven a little more than a sim race. I'd guess he has raced more than the combined amount of races by nearly everyone commenting on this thread.
I wonder if there is a message board out there where there are strippers arguing to be regarded as ballerinas? |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by apexin: |
Some of these people act like everyone was just running around the inside berm until the high hp midget engines came along. I'm here to tell you that 600 micros bust the cushion at little Belleville every Powri race with just 150hp. It doesn't take huge $$ hp to have a good race.
Out here in AZ we see 410 usac races, 360 southwest races and even a lower budget class that some run with a carb all running on the 3/8 mile at canyon. Some guys will run all three classes at different times of the year with an engine swap. I still call all of them sprint cars. If you came out and watched them hot lap, you would be hard pressed to tell which class is on the track. It's tough to see 1 second per lap when big ballers are out there running them all deep into the corner WFO! |
Originally Posted by LEADERS EDGE: You might want to find out who is posting on this topic before you throw a statement like that out there. I guess I should have made my user name AFoyt14. That way everyone would back up my opinions. |
Originally Posted by apexin: |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Apexin, for one Canyon in Arizona is a 1/3 mile track not a 3/8's. I just raced there last week in my 600 Micro. It is completely different from a sprint car. My micro is a lay down, the motor hangs out to the left. There is NO MINISPRINT (Uprights) in the state of Arizona. An upright the motor sits right in the middle of the car and the driver is sitting upright like in a sprint car and midget, but the upright is chain driven while a sprint car is not. You just can't swap the motor out between a minisprint and sprint car. You can change the motor from a 410 sprinter to a 360 sprinter but not to a MINISPRINT. I've also been in a non-wing and wing sprint car, they all sound and feel different. A wing driver can't always go run non wing and vise versa.
The 410 last year in November ran a very low 13 in qualifying while my 600 micro non-wing ran approximately a 15 sec lap time. The lap times are completely different, so are the weights of the cars, horsepower and torque each car produce. A micro will not be able to compete with a sprint car/midget and any track. Period end of discussion. Thanks A Sim and Dirt Track Racer |
They have an Ecotech class at the Shootout and 25 cars show up every year and the cars are much slower.
Some of those same "midgets" run the Chili Bowl and they are field fillers. They are just there to say they ran the Chili Bowl. To my knowledge the highest finishing Ecotech this year was Steve Schaberg... He ran 9th in the 2nd F-main. Comparing what you guys are trying to pass as midgets to what midgets really are would be like trying to pass high school baseball as major league baseball... Are the fields and distances the same?? For the most part yes(Bases, pitching mound)... What's the difference??? The speed of the game. Just like in this deal. If I spent my money going to the event expecting to see the midgets, and saw what you guys are calling midgets, I wouldn't stay. Just an honest fan here. :6: |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by KJHolley: Perhaps a better comparison would be a Race Saver 305 Sprint car to a WOL 410 Sprint Car. Would you agree that is a pretty good analogy. You Know Apples and Oranges so to speak. Why do you insist on calling both cars Sprint Cars something is obviously wrong in the reasoning as you see it. You are not a real race fan>>>>> just smug and opinionated. But come to think of it folks aren't too friendly toward the 305's either. Maybe we could raise your front gate admission to $100.00 a seat so the track owner could afford to pay $10,000.00 to win on a Saturday Night Race and perhaps we can furnish you the type of race car you wish. How many people could afford a ticket every weekend? Racers are just like the people out front, money is tight, race tracks and race teams are folding every day. Go get your computer tuned up and go do some sim racing. LIVE YOUR DREAM BUD. Admission and car ownership is very affordable ENJOY!!!!!:) Maybe were you to decide to buy and support a race car, you might get a handle from the racer point of view. Many people make small fortune's racing>>>>>All they need is a large fortune to start out with.;) Check out the front gate admission at Du Quoin? Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Originally Posted by apexin: |
Originally Posted by xoxide: |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by KJHolley: KJ and all the rest...DAMN IT MAN can you not open your eyes and see!! Chevrolet has the Corvette @ 100 grand and the Cobalt @ under 20 grand or they even have the BASE Camaro @ 25 grand or the SS(super sport) @ 40 grand WHAT THE HELL IS THE DIFFERENCE?????? They are all Chevrolets |
I run a lightning sprint (1000cc upright mini sprint) and I don't think that they should be called midgets because they're not. I believe that anything with a chain drive is not a midget. However an ecotech or focus is a midget. Just because a guy doesn't have the sponsorship or money to put a high dollar motor in his "MIDGET" doesn't make it any less of one. That guys car means just as much to him as the next guy. He puts blood, sweat, and money in his car every week. Every track and every racer needs fans. They're what keeps tracks open and racers racing, but for a fan or "only sim racers" to say that an ecotech isn't worthy of calling themselves midgets is BULL****!!!! That is why they're out there racing and you're on the wooden bleachers!!!! I hope that actual racers will agree with this and if not oh well I tried.
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Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
A little history on Indiana Openwheel. Most probably do not know that Bill Gardner started this site way back when as USACfans.com I believe was the name. It was basically started from sim racing the old ratbag computer sprint car game. Bill had leagues and a lot of us guys got together weekly and competed as sim racers. I believe without sim racing this site may not even be here. I have been a sim racer since it started and I believe it is a great option for fans and racers alike to wheel there favorite type car around there favorite track. I have developed many friendships through sim racing and Bill Gardner was one of those friends!
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Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by TFortune39: We have been racing the Midget chassis chain drive motorcycle powered cars for years. When we started they were 600cc for us, 1200cc for our larger brothers. Our name was 600cc Mini Sprint and racing without wings was not an option. I did not question the name, it sounded good to me, and all was well with the world. We raced in this state for years and where perfectly happy. About 10 years ago or so A bright Canadian Guy came up with the Idea to change our name to Lightning Sprint. That upset my apple cart having called them Mini Sprint for so long Lightning did not make any sense to me and it still doesn't. 1000cc Sprint or 1200cc Sprint made just A LITTLE SENSE but Lightning NO WAY!!! I did a little research and a lot of soul searching and I decided that not only was "Lightning" a poor Adjective (vague) but on top of everything else "Sprint" was a very poor name for our particular race car. When I hear Sprint Car I think of a large 90 inch wheel base open wheel race car powered by a 300 to 400+ CID motor. When I hear lightning I see a bright flash in the sky. None of these remind me of what we race. When I researched the Min Sprint what I found a Midget chassis dimension based race car powered by a very powerful for it's size Motorcycle engine that was driven by a chain as opposed to a drive shaft. Is the reason people have classified this little race car a Sprint car because it is chain driven??:10: I have never seen a chain drive sprint car and I am not sure they even make a chain large enough to hook one of these monster tired and overly powered race cars up. We are in fact Midget cars with chain drive, so. Like I said I have been around a long time and have seen change in Chassis design and engine design. At one time we were one of the very few Mini Sprint racers that raced with a regular Midget design frame. Our first car was a Beast Chassis>>the second was a Stealth chassis>>the last several race cars we have been racing have been an FSC chassis that were specifically designed to work well with chain drive. Many people started out with Mini Sprint chassis Bailey>>ERC>>Stallard. Now after many years most newer Mini Sprints also have followed us by using the Midget Chassis as a base to build from. If you should win the race in Du Quoin your trophy will be out of place with your others. It will say Division II Midget Winner. You will have beat out several Stock block shaft drive Midgets as well as the Kenyon Midgets. You will probably however want to display this Trophy on your desk. Times change >>>people change>>> and racing cars >>>should change!!! Motor cycle engines will continue to improve for the sake of Motorcycle Riders and not for four wheel racers. They are becoming increasingly more expensive and harder to adapt to a race car. There are Millions and Millions of small fairly high performance engines in salvage yards all over the USA. My bet is you probably have many right now at your disposal. They are competitive in a stock form with one another and I am betting they are competitive with Mini Sprints as well. After 20 years of busting my knuckles and all of that hard work involved with changing gears to meet track conditions that quick change sure looks good to me. Wayne and I had this discussion several years ago and was one of the reasons for the shaft drive option in the old MMSA rules. Bill also saw the future and was willing to put forth an effort to meet the challenge. Wayne finally agreed that we were Midgets and has become one of the largest and most vocal supporters of the change. Race groups up in Illinois have also started to re thing their definition of Midget. We now have all of these cars setting around, many with no place to race. They can't come up with enough cars to make a full field. Why not work together for the sake of all of these "Sub Prime Midgets" and make better racing for all. You purist that can only pallet $20,000.00 Midget Motors will just have to drive a bit further to watch a Midget race. We don't want to deceive them. We love racing and this is the level we choose to race at, if we get more funds or more desire we can always move up, in the same token the door is open to those racers that decide to step back a step or two to race with us. If you don't make Du Quoin this winter put Montpelier on your race track to visit list. They are a perfect example of melting all of these Midget race cars together into one pretty exciting Midget Race program. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Midgets at Southern Illinois Center Feb 7th
Originally Posted by riskybrisky5: Racers are racers period....Give them some one or something to race against and them silly people will race one another. It might be real race cars, it might be RC race cars it might be slot cars. It could even be Computer based. At one time Tony Stewart was a die hard RC racer they were as important to him as racing Midgets and Sprints. Now Chase tells us he is a die hard sim racer. All this goes to prove is a real racer is a racer. I might start driving up and down the alleys and see if I can round up some old tri-cycles and start my own races in the pits at Du Quqoin.:5:;) next weekend. Has anyone ever had the opportunity to watch a bunch of Midget and Sprint Racers at a rental go kart track? The spectacle is awesome and probably just a little disconcerting for the track operator. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
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