Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

The dwarf car tires are the key to affordable pavement racing. For traditional midget fans they do not look "small." If you look at tire/wheel sizes up until 1990 they are about the same as the dwarf car tires. If you don't have big power you don't need big tires. I have always contended that great racing comes from reliable cars with more power than the tires can handle. This way the driver has to decide when and where to apply how much power.
If you have "too much" tire cars just get in line and wait for a mistake. There are some great drivers in the national cars and current motors are almost too much for even the giant tires.
Typical national or focus pavement race involves going balls out for 5 laps until the tires are warm, then someone makes a pass or spins. Sort out the yellow, allow tires to cool, and repeat. A waste of talent, tires, and motors IMHO.
As an IRS car owner I would be open to bigger tires on dirt but not on pavement.
I applaud BMARA for bravely moving forward with 21st century powerplants.

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Gear

I guess you guys don't get into a quandary worrying about tire stagger and stuff like that? Just Drive er in and bust the rear loose to compensate for the difference and keep on racing. WOW!!!

Have you ever tried going with a Left rear Midget tire on the right side for dirt?

Heck we would even have to buy a new air gauge to race with you guys> I can not imagine racing when I did not have at least half a dozen rear tires and wheels laying around just to make that last adjustment before putting the car out on the track and then kicking myself in the butt because I chose the wrong tire. :10::D;)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Would this work if they had wings on? For instance a focus, ecotec, or restriced 166 adding a wing to run with lightning or mini sprint group... Would the 1000cc be able to compete?

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Hines

Yep!!:) Rephrase that>>> Yep! 1000cc Midgets would be very competitive, But like so many they have a "Chain Drive Anxiety Syndrome Complex".:17: We are hoping and looking for a cure in the near future.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

I was thinking more like should a lightning sprint org be scared of letting them run

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

The stagger problem is the same for everyone. Would our drivers like more option? Hell yes. But we remind them of the days when the teams would race pavement & dirt on the same day. Ever see a pre 1970 midget trailer with a huge tire rack? Sometimes having fewer options makes solving a problem easier.
One Badger car owner confessed that he just got wore out asking people for tire money. His $600 a week budget is what we spend for a SEASON on pavement & dirt.
If you fans want us to go faster feel free to come down to the tire truck, buy some tires, and drop them off in the pits. This too is not a new problem. We are lucky to have the 1959 Badger championship car intact & unmodified because the car owner mothballed it after calculating his losses [<$250] in a season where the car won 75% of the features.

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Originally Posted by HinesFan:
I was thinking more like should a lightning sprint org be scared of letting them run

Hines

Nope! That is my "Sermon" and "Soap Box Speech" all tied together.:)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Well....the rubber is meeting the road. How many are going to get in the car and go for the ride with Badger? Lot of people who preached the solution and the cure need to step up. Ever notice when there is a tragedy such as a house fire or a car crash or a dog trapped on the ice or someone drowning that there are usually several people standing by watching in horror. They say that someone needs to do something but those people are rarely the ones who step in, take the risk and actually do something. Hope that doesn't happen here.

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Originally Posted by LEADERS EDGE:
Well....the rubber is meeting the road. How many are going to get in the car and go for the ride with Badger? Lot of people who preached the solution and the cure need to step up. Ever notice when there is a tragedy such as a house fire or a car crash or a dog trapped on the ice or someone drowning that there are usually several people standing by watching in horror. They say that someone needs to do something but those people are rarely the ones who step in, take the risk and actually do something. Hope that doesn't happen here.

I so agree Edge...I have had people on the sidelines for 3 years now gonna get a midget..."man you got it going on"...."like to try one before I buy one"...and everything else you can think of for and excuse...I have put over 10 different racers in my spare car and have yet to have one buy a car....I have went up north and picked up cars only to sell them to somebody back up north to get a little of my $$ back... Have a beast chassis and components for $600 less then I paid for it... "I'm thinking about it"....Have a 2003 Maxim complete roller just needs an engine for $2500.00...."Oh I can't afford that"....Hell I had 1 of the racers go to Ohio last winter and sell the car going back up north and he NEVER made a lap in the car....Had 14 people call me about the vacated ride of 1 of my cars....not one is willing to help work or fund it but they will so up to drive it.....Oh well I'll keep trying....hope the winternationals works out this year for me and everyone comes down that has said they are....even so I will still pursue the dream of racing some kind of non wing open wheel car in the south.....Not me personally racing...I'm too old and fat

If you support it it will happen if not you just might loose it for ever

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Originally Posted by LEADERS EDGE:
Well....the rubber is meeting the road. How many are going to get in the car and go for the ride with Badger? Lot of people who preached the solution and the cure need to step up. Ever notice when there is a tragedy such as a house fire or a car crash or a dog trapped on the ice or someone drowning that there are usually several people standing by watching in horror. They say that someone needs to do something but those people are rarely the ones who step in, take the risk and actually do something. Hope that doesn't happen here.

Leaders

A thousand miles round trip would be a bit much for us. You can bet I will be rooting for them. They already have in the IRS (Just can't get used to saying that without a shudder) and the IMRA they probably have 40 to 50 cars ready to go. Sure wish they would include Chains also.

It is not as if the guys up there are re-inventing the wheel, from what I have read they have been there and done that already and were pretty successful at it in the past.

If this model works up their, and I bet it does, a track down in central or southern Indiana might just do the same thing. Midget racing is addictive both to racers and crowds, we just need to bring it back to the fore front.

I have been ranting for a long time that despite the belief of the Powers that be, Automotive manufactures have made great progress since the 1950's and perhaps they should experiment just a little. In 1950 if I were to tell you that I had a 60 CID motor that was capable of 225 Horsepower that would run forever you would probably think just like people do today think that I was a Crack Pot. Well they are here right now and we race one. In fact they now have a supercharged factory version of this same motor that will put out 350+ Stock horsepower all day long. We actually have racers racing with us right now that think that they can get more horsepower out of these things just by spending more money. Sorry but it Just ain't there fellows. Equating that power to Cubic Inches to a National Midget motor of today you would be looking at about 1150 horsepower to try to apply to the racing surface.

Times are changing, nothing I would like more than to attack a Unobtanium TRO Powered Midget with a little 1000cc chain drive Midget. That would be fun.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

"The dwarf car tires are the key to affordable pavement racing."
OK, but we're talking about dirt. Or at least I was.
"If you have "too much" tire cars just get in line and wait for a mistake."
You haven't been to Montpelier; pretty racey bunch.
"As an IRS car owner I would be open to bigger tires on dirt but not on pavement."
Amen.
"I applaud BMARA for bravely moving forward with 21st century powerplants."
Me too. I wish them every success, along with every organization this year that have similar rules packages and philosophies. I hope we all have fun at our local venues, venture out a little when we can and that a rising tide will float all of our boats.

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Wayne

You need to tell them people that racing is like Marriage, if they wait until they can afford it they probably ain't never getting hitched or for that matter go racing. Might not be relevant today but who knows if Midgets can come back maybe marriage has a chance also.:)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Originally Posted by jjones752:
"The dwarf car tires are the key to affordable pavement racing."
OK, but we're talking about dirt. Or at least I was.
"If you have "too much" tire cars just get in line and wait for a mistake."
You haven't been to Montpelier; pretty racey bunch.
"As an IRS car owner I would be open to bigger tires on dirt but not on pavement."
Amen.
"I applaud BMARA for bravely moving forward with 21st century powerplants."
Me too. I wish them every success, along with every organization this year that have similar rules packages and philosophies. I hope we all have fun at our local venues, venture out a little when we can and that a rising tide will float all of our boats.

Jim

Wonder if we could talk Harold into running one race where they were only allowed to run Left rear tires across the back. That would be a lot of fun.:D

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Wings, stager, chains. What has that got to do with eng RULES G.F.Y.

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

It's called a "discussion". Wings may not be pertinent, but the other subjects relate.
Read something else if you don't like it, no need to get hostile...

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Stoney

All of them things figure into how much horsepower we can get to the race track, Skinny tire are only good to transfer so much horsepower, Wings let you get more of that horsepower to the track, and chain is just more efficient allowing more of the engine horsepower to reach the track. It all works together.;)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

This might be the best thing to happen out there, without totally kicking existing motors to the curb, But Im in total agreement with the too many classes to make any series worth a damn Both for fan base and for purses.

Id have Outlaw Karts, and TQ's as entry level. Midgets, Sprints and champs.

Thats it!

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Charles, I think Brad was referring to too many Midget "Champions" diluting the meaning of the word; it is pretty confusing when you have Dirt, Pavement and Overall Focus champions in the East Coast, Midwest and West Coast, plus the National Dirt, Pavement & Overall, plus the Western States D.P.&O. Makes it a little like T-ball where nobody keeps score and everybody gets a trophy.
But that has nothing to do with engine rules.:31:

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

so where can someone buy one of these new engines? and how much?

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Originally Posted by jjones752:
Charles, I think Brad was referring to too many Midget "Champions" diluting the meaning of the word; it is pretty confusing when you have Dirt, Pavement and Overall Focus champions in the East Coast, Midwest and West Coast, plus the National Dirt, Pavement & Overall, plus the Western States D.P.&O. Makes it a little like T-ball where nobody keeps score and everybody gets a trophy.
But that has nothing to do with engine rules.:31:

Jim

I always liked the title "Perfect attendance award" better. That means that you attended all the races and finished better than all the others that attended all the races. In other words "Championships" were designed by promoters for promoters to encourage participation in their races.

I guess that was Brad Kuhn talking about Championships. His first ride in a Midget size car was in a 600cc upright Mini Sprint at Salem's Thunder Valley. We had a lot of championships in Quarter Midgets back in the day also but everyone recognized that "Light A" was the Championship of Championships, when you had to move up into heavy it was time to retire, and you only won that Championship at a Grand National Race.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Originally Posted by polecar:
so where can someone buy one of these new engines? and how much?

Pole

Find them at your friendly local salvage yard for a few hundred bucks or buy a turn key ready to race brand new crate version for about $10,000.00 or somewhere in between. Wonder what Revolution racing is doing>>>> they used to be the point people on Echotecs.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Well, it sure didn't take long to derail that little bit of encouraging news, is it the weather, or a "turf" war, it seems as though the old adage falls as soon as something positive hits the forum, sheesh, give it a break, sounds to me with some informed input, it just might work around this part of the country! Bob

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Originally Posted by polecar:
so where can someone buy one of these new engines? and how much?

Check with Tracy Hull with IMRA, Johnny Murdock @ BAM (racing associations who would be happy to point you in the right direction), or SET Racing & MWR, who sell Ecotec packages. You can either buy a motor "prepped" with all of the plumbing, headers etc. for up to around $7,000 (a bargain for a Midget engine), or try you luck at Pic-a-part for about $450 and work out the fussy bits yourself.
I've seen a few complete DMA (Quad-4) midgets from New England for sale on Hoseheads for 5-7 grand, too.

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Dad, I think Keith Iaia (Revolution, ex-SCREAM) got discouraged with the ******** and is doing something else...

They already have in the IRS (Just can't get used to saying that without a shudder) and the IMRA they probably have 40 to 50 cars ready to go. Sure wish they would include Chains also.

The ENGLER IMRA midget series has always included the chain drive cars. And the same with the illini series. Let's give it a little time and see what the guys from BADGER come up with on rules.

Tracy hull
ENGLER IMRA MIDGET SERIES

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Jim

I think you are right. Having a good idea is but one small part of bring that idea to fruition. Seems to me like he was on IOW not too long ago. A man ahead of his time. :9::9:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Originally Posted by jjones752:
Charles, I think Brad was referring to t, Foo many Midget "Champions" diluting the meaning of the word; it is pretty confusing when you have Dirt, Pavement and Overall Focus champions in the East Coast, Midwest and West Coast, plus the National Dirt, Pavement & Overall, plus the Western States D.P.&O. Makes it a little like T-ball where nobody keeps score and everybody gets a trophy.
But that has nothing to do with engine rules.:31:

Yeah, I get what he was saying but the same thing goes for number of classes IMHO. TQ's, 600 Mini's 1000 Mini's 1200 Mini's, Focus, D2, Kenyon etc. Now you got what fans that will follow them divided up into 7 different divisions and Racers that race divided up the same way.

We here at MWR offer the Chevy Ecotec, we just got back from Tulsa with a 3rd and 8th place finish. We have a complete package that bolts into an existing national car without moving crank centerline. The Ecotec pattern can re-drill over any national engine. We use electromotive efi with either plenium or individual runner intake. The package complete with ps, fuel pump, alternator, header, plug and play harness and crank adapter for 9k and runs with the best in the country!

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
Yeah, I get what he was saying but the same thing goes for number of classes IMHO. TQ's, 600 Mini's 1000 Mini's 1200 Mini's, Focus, D2, Kenyon etc. Now you got what fans that will follow them divided up into 7 different divisions and Racers that race divided up the same way.

The D-2 is made up of 2/3rds of those combined to race as 1 entity. Focus/1000/1200/Keyon/Ecotec and sprinkle in your older 166 nationals engines with hardened RR and min. rear tire pressures they all become 1 group... D-II....

Race under your own banner all within the confines of set of rules...The IMRA and the SSMS have all the same rules except 1...the 2.0/focus cars needing help. I (SSMS) allow head work to the focus and IMRA does not....with that extra 34 lbs hanging in front of the motor plate and a max.176 HP, I do feel they need help and over the next year hopefully we will get that resolved where we are 100% the same on rules. Tracy has been a great person to work with and looking forward to work with him and the IMRA in the future.

Chuck understood what I was saying, I only used the Championship thing as an example of the past and how it became watered down. There are too many names, too many divisions and too much confusion for the fans. Its like everytime someone gets pissed off about not being competitive or getting out spent, they spun off a new division with a new set of rules. IMO none of it has been good for midget racing as a whole. Especially when it isnt a midget and you call it a midget. That is my opinion, you may not agree.

Sarcasim is my second language for the guy that was laying it on thick. My point with the "safety concerns" was obviously on a higher level than what you were able to fathom. I was considering it from an insurance perspective. Your traditional clubs have always been enclosed drivelines. That is what they are used to insuring and they know the risks. The (3) major sanctioning bodies have better insurance and higher expectations than your local "run what you brung" type tracks. Sorry for bringing that into your chain drive discussion. IMO you need to draw the line somewhere. I dont think asking a guy to put a driveline in his car is too much. Once again, that is my opinion.

My guess is that if anyone with a chain drive actually wants to put up or shut up and compete with Badger, the club will probably let you. They have allowed some in the past when car counts were low.

300+ full "D1" cars running in Tulsa right now, and the solution to fix midget racing is to pad the field with "D2" cars?
The issue that needs to be fixed isn't motors, it's why are those 300+ cars not running any other races? Lots of reasons for that, and those reasons will still be there with the "D2" midgets.
I hope at least they restrict the "D1" midgets in a reasonable manner, such as restricting airflow. I really hope that they don't follow USAC's lead and try to restrict RPM...

Originally Posted by jjones752:
Check with Tracy Hull with IMRA, Johnny Murdock @ BAM (racing associations who would be happy to point you in the right direction), or SET Racing & MWR, who sell Ecotec packages. You can either buy a motor "prepped" with all of the plumbing, headers etc. for up to around $7,000 (a bargain for a Midget engine), or try you luck at Pic-a-part for about $450 and work out the fussy bits yourself.
I've seen a few complete DMA (Quad-4) midgets from New England for sale on Hoseheads for 5-7 grand, too.

Jim,
So is it bad that I picked up a 2014 2.2 ecotec with 2,100 miles on it last month at pick and pull for $189? It would've been $149 if it wasn't for the core charge.....lol You can put all the high quality parts from many of our midget racing partners out there and when the engine pops, remove it, and for another $149, you're ready to go again. I bought a focus engine complete on eBay a few years back with 4,900 miles on it for a measly $75. There's some many of them out there for good prices that folks can really put money into chassis setup and renting a track for seat time because let's face it, motors are one thing. Setting a car up is another. The big one which no amount of money is gonna buy is getting the legs, arms, and most importantly, the driver's brain on the right track.:)

I'm thrilled to see a club moving forward and exploring the newer technologies out there. It's also great to see some big names in this thread discussing and sharing their thoughts and ideas as well. I have to refer back to fan appreciation night at Montpelier last season when I had a kid's dad ask if my car was a midget or mini sprint. Before I opened my mouth, his little boy sitting in my driver's seat at the time yelled out "Dad, who cares! It's a racecar and I'm sitting in it!!!" When we got shooting past the stands at 80-100mph, the fans get their money's worth of entertainment rather it's a crotch rocket or automotive engine under the hood. They see we are nuts for doing it and obviously have them for doing it..... That's where I see some of the points in this discussion where the "most discussed racecars" as I call them at this point gets dicey amongst different folks and different series'. I'm one of the cheapest guys making the haul to the Hoosier state and having fun is why I do it. I let the powers that be think how to manage a series or invent the rules, I just fall in line and a big grin on my face when the green flag drops. :)

Yokel hit the nail on the head. Let's hope the fact that fuel is much less expensive then it has been the last couple years will help more people race more often, and more fans to come watch.

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Pat
It's not bad at all, Brother; you did good. I'm right there with you one the cheap scale, and I think you know that the grin under my helmet is as big as yours, especially on those rare occasions when we get to go wheel-to-wheel.
Brad, I respect your opinion a great deal as someone who's been around this sport for a long time. I may seem to get all wrapped up about this "chain or no chain" deal but most of it is with my tongue firmly in my cheek, and it's the path I chose to take to (relatively) inexpensively participate in a sport that I'm passionate about. After around 2 years of getting back into the fellowship of racers and knowing what I know now I may have gone a different direction (i.e. a more "traditional" driveline, with automotive power) but it is what it is and I aim to make the most of it until the Zonker blows. I'm appreciative of the opportunities I have to race, whether it's at my home track or those times I've been welcomed out on the road. I probably won't travel as far as Wisconsin this year so my opinion really doesn't matter; I just know that a very simple, open set of rules seems to be working at Montpelier. It's sure working for me and Pat, and that's really all I wanted to communicate.

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

My observations:

1. The Chili Bowl is not really a Midget race, it is a happening that just happens to have a bunch of Midget races thrown in for good measure. Many of the cars that race there only make it out once a year as a cash cow rental for their owners. Many of the regular drivers of many of the cars racing there are not in the seat but let themselves be replaced with a bunch of Fantasy Island racers who but for once a year have never been up close and personal with a midget. The racers make this sacrifice to help finance next years racing program. You might call the new midget racers hazards or obstacles for the few serious racers entered in the program try and miss to continue on in the count down. The Chili Bowl is a place to meet and greet friends of the past and rub elbows with the who's who in racing. There isn't much going on in mid January so Tulsa is as good of place as any.

2.Gas prices are coming down, hopefully that will turn loose some extra coins to race on.

3. Mini sprints are not the car of the future. They came along as the Japanese motorcycle manufactures were exporting millions of motorcycles to the US. They were very powerful when compared to their size. They made it possible to build very fast and economical race cars. Chain was the simplest and most inexpensive way to drive them.

4. Automobile manufactures have made great strides in the last 15 years or so and are improving their technology exponentially as we speak.

5. The modern 4 valve automotive engine was not even in existence in the 80's when the mini sprint concept was developed. You might say that Mini Sprints even with their very highly developed stock engine platforms are "Old School". Production of motorcycles known as "crotch rockets" are down to a very small percentage of what they were in the 90's. Supply is drying up and other racing classes are coming on line to use them in their forms of racing, making them more expensive. We are buying engine today with mileage numbers we would have turned our back on a few years ago.

6. Meanwhile automotive engines have become very sophisticated and powerful, maybe not to the very impressive numbers of the motorcycle industry but there is very little comparison between a Pinto of the 70's and an Echotec of today. The Echotec and even Honda's are designed for ordinary drivers and are classed as economy class engines. On the other hand the auto makers have designated motors in the 3.0 liter to 3.5 liter as their performance motors. Many of these would probably make an outstanding and very powerful and dependable race motors for Midgets and are still not very large physically.

7. After saying all of those good things about the motors of today they are already becoming dated as for as automotive design and manufactures are concerned. Now in the interest of efficiency the Automotive people are looking at even smaller engines, higher compression ratios, and forced induction. Force induction has always been a four letter word to circle track people but that was mostly because of the perceived very high cost of low production units. Now they come as stock equipment on new automobiles. Maybe it's time for rule makers to start exploring forced induction systems and how to regulate them. (USAC and their darned cheap pop off valves).

8.I don't think we need be too concerned about chain drive>>> safe or unsafe>>> insurance company or no insurance company. Chain drive will take care of itself. With the cost of chains and sprockets and the extra extra work required to keep them up they will just gradually disappear on their own. Do Not rule them out. Each one of those cars and racers are just like Patrick Mead up at Montpelier. They are racers and they are competitive but in the end the drive line will win over with the invent of the newer automotive motors. Just don't outlaw a lot of your field because of their drive system. At this point in time we need all the racers we can get our hands on.

9. Be very strict about stock block and stock head, (to the point of no modification period in the lower classes). Now in the "Double A" division (a word way older than most of the readers on IOW) still require stock blocks and heads, But perhaps allow V6 motor and a larger displacements and open modifications. Keep them Russian owned Titanium company's in business.

10. If you leave yourselves room for competition to develop new concepts the best will always win out and the breed will improve and prosper into the future.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Why does everyone want to cut back the intake of the national engines? A few guys (myself included) have done that. The engines are not built for that. Make them add weight. If a guy can afford a new Toyota, he sure as hell can afford some lead.

I think at the end of the day, we are talking about two different groups of racers. I have no problem with using these production based motors and if it helps some guys get a car on the track and enjoy themselves it's a fantastic thing. But I also don't think we should consider penalizing a guy who wants to spend his money on a current platform National style engine and in most cases these two racers aren't going to be going head to head for a vast amount of reasons. That being said, if running these motors in a regional type series allows for the R&D to get them to being a viable replacement for our current national motors at a mere fraction of the current prices (under $10,000 in my opinion) then we will all win in the end.

I'm hoping for no chain drivin engines. Run them like the focus setup. definitely want some kind of a clutch so there isn't that time wasted pushing cars off.

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Last night at the chilibowl an ecotec powered car went from 7th to 3rd in it's heatrace, ran 6th in the qualifier, and was in 3rd in a B when he got black flagged for having a muffler fall off.

Re: BMARA engine rules are now D-II
 

This is a really good read. Keep it going.