I agree 100%, Kerry! My students at school even associate Sprint Car racing with Wings and then I explain to them, that I mainly race Non-Wing. I personally love when I get the opportunity to run with a Wing or watch a Winged race!

An American Racer MC3 would be perfect for this class! Hard enough to be durable and keep sharp edges and you can turn it around too! On top of that you can by new ones all day long for $170. No need to design a new tire!

Yes you are right no need for a new tire to be designed, they will probably be running the medium since that's what everyone else around is running and being a low cost class they can buy them used. No one else running american racer would not be cost friendly to a class where I'd say most will not be bolting on a new RR.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

We save money by attaching our fiberglass low back seat with three dzus bottons.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

I don't totally disagree, but running 3 classes of the same looking sprints work at Knoxville weekly, and all over PA (305, 360, 410), so whats the reason Bloomington has to be so special? If its all about cost, why add another $1000 on top of a car? And with so many true non wing cars in that area, you cant hand them down at a bargain price because of no wing mounts, the engine is laid back, 53" front axles, shock mounts are different etc etc.
To get this class going right away, drop a 305 in a good used roller.....same Hoosier Medium tire so they can run used ones that are all over the greater Indy area and go race.

In Jacksonville IL it makes sense to run with a wing due to their location.

I see our new friend from Texas, Nathan Moore is starting a 305 Racesaver series without wings based out of the Dallas area, per his Facebook.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

Well there's the tire resolution, at a reasonable price, but to race at first will have to buy a new stock of them, as the used market will be slim to none starting out.

Benefits of wings:

1) Easier to drive - when you are talking about attracting racers from a different division or even getting a fan to start racing, making the car easier to drive is a big step.

2) The wing is not going to affect the life of the motor that much. The 305 motors I worked on never turned over 7600, and that only happened when someone hit you in the a$$ and you spun the tires. Its also 10:1 compression, so its going to last a while. Don't get me wrong, you can stuff 50 points of gear in it so you can turn it 7800 and try to wear it out faster, but the truth is you would run out of pull before you hit the flagstand.

3) New top wing is $600 and new nose wing is $125. You just have to put the rivets in it. That $725 is nice to have when you go for a ride, slowing you down and cushioning the impacts (better for newer racers).

4) MOST IMPORTANT - You have an extra 40 square feet of sponsor space to generate revenue to support your race team! (Wish it actually worked like that)

The 305 class is designed to save the racer money while being competitive. The wong should make it easier to drive, which SHOULD lead to less wrecks, which SHOULD lead to less money spent on repair parts. Even if it was $1000 for the set, its a wise investment.

Many people at Paragon and with BOSS run American Racers and Win! USAC Champ Cars too. Dang good tires for less!

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

What if the intent of a starter class for Sprints starts producing guys that move up from Winged 305's to non winged 410's in a couple years. Won't that be a good thing?

The point of the 305 "Winged" car is to provide a stepping stone to the more skilled driven 410. I believe everyone on here will agree that it requires more driving skill to pilot a non-wing car. With that said, yes wings are a little costly if you go over, but what I have followed this season shows that most "winged" shows produce less flipped cars than "non-wing"..... (Again , just from the events I've been at). With that stat in mind wings to start these entry level cars assists the driver in controlling the car a bit, thus allowing them to learn the car and makes for a "potentially" safer situation. I agree with "ecrouse" on the points made. If your looking for that series with those extremely advanced maneuvers for position, I would hope you would be watching the USAC or MSCS series..... In my opinion, if someone is capable of driving at that level, hopefully they wouldn't be "cherry picking" in this series. Jmo

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

Nailed it.. ^^^

I wont get into the head scratching as far as all the push-back regarding a new series strating up.. It'll take me too long to understand and cause a buncha fights..

But as for the fanbase... Lets talk about history and tradition. In a post regarding the WoO at Kokomo, someone mentioned that the USAC shows are mosly older guys, while the WoO was a younger 'tattooed' up crowd. Obviously non winged (traditional/sprint car) is the rule of the roost in the Hoosier state. Folks love the tradition, and they've stuck to it. But an old crowd is just that... an old crowd. You cant impress them. Cant sell em a new t shirt. Cant market a chili-dog because "in my day a hot dog was a nickel"... Yadda yadda yadda... A new young crowd can add to the dynamic of the stands, of the whole night. Not to discredit the older die hard fans, but when things have worn themselves into such a predictible and comfortable rut, folks will either give it up, or make a change.
But I believe that Bloomington is changing with the times. Yeah, they'll still support the non winged stuff. They'd be nuts to run those guys out. But this division, aside from catering to the racers, also caters to the fans who may not know squat about sprint cars. How many of us have explained to some unknowing individual (regarding sprint car racing), and gotten the blank stare. Then we go ahead with the 'the ones with the wings on the top'... Then they respond with 'Oh Yeah, I know what youre talking about now.' Or the all popular "the dune buggy thing with the fin on the roof?"


Now lets talk Knoxville and PA, and why 3 divisions of wings works... Simple. Because folks in Kxv and PA KNOW RACING. Those fans are in the know, inside and out. Can tell you who's shop is where, where Johnny Tin-top is in the standings at Track X,Y and Z. They dont necessarily need to open up to a new fanbase because the front gate $$ is doing just fine.

Not to speculate on the books at Bloomington, but maybe they've been doing some research, seeing the draws of wings from folks across the country. Bumping the numbers of folks in the front gate at their track vs a track with winged 305's. Maybe they took this step to bring more fans. And like what was posted above, this could be an attempt to get folks in to see the 'things with the fin on top' but also with intention to drop their jaws with the NW 410's.

We can all speculate about the M.O. of Bloomington and the 'whys'. But point blank. They're running Winged 305's next season. Dont like wings? Stay home.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

WOW!!!

Look Punk I'm 67 years old and I represent that remark!!!;)

Hoosiers are very traditional something to do with the "500" I guess. Change is hard. How long have you been around? Like connoisseurs of fine wines Hoosier race fans take their racing very seriously, what you might have seen as a super race to them may have only rated a 1 or 2 on their scale of greatness. They very seldom stand to watch the action but curse those that do. For all of their crying and moaning, B1tching and cursing they are in the end race fans and when push comes to shove they will support them winged things and probably enjoy the action.:)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

PS. All of us old "died in the wool" race fans seem to be dying off for some unknown reason and we haven't done a lot to cultivated any new ones.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

I never meant any offense with the old age thing. But as for your comment on 'dying off' as morbid as it sounds, realistically its true.

I'm 22. From Arizona, now living in SC. Never been to Indiana, only seen videos and TV shows. Would LOVE to get up there and see my share of action, but I'll need long sleeves to hide my tattoos... :3:

Really don't wanna see any tracks fall through the cracks before I get there though. And If I gotta sit through an abomination like the cursed 'Winged Cars' in order to see what is Indiana Sprint Car racing, I think I'll tolerate it... :5:

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

Wow, all this about the wing vs non-wing is getting a bit over the top. It's fine to be passionate about your likes, but some of the so-called conclusions on both sides of this issue seem a bit baseless, along with some of the unnecessary ultimatums about who should attend, etc. I am basically a non-wing guy, but watched many wing shows. I now seldom attend because the technology of aero, tires and motors have substantially reduced the kind of action that early winged racing provided. Lastly, am I the only guy who remembers that winged racing was once dominant in Indiana back in the 80's. Where did it go and why? Winged racing has certainly taken over the public's identification with sprint car racing, but this is related to many things including marketing, media exposure, and embracing by now nationally known drivers in other forms of racing.

Why is this thread back to "wing vs non wing: which do you like?" When the OP and first couple pages were about semantics?

They're called Racesavers but you want to add $800 parts. It's a stepping stone but they drive nothing like a non wing 410. Tony Stewart said in an interview that was the appeal of the wing cars; he'd already mastered usac and liked the challenge of learning wings. Concern the support class will either slick off the FEATURED series track condition or delay the evening to the late hours making distant travel fans hesitant to go. If it's about new fans, how late will the stay out and still consider coming back? Is this an additional support class or a replacement class? Once again, longer evening or replacing support class fans w/ sprint car fans who are already there? The wing fans are already there supporting non wings, right?! It wouldn't make sense to chastise the non wing fans if this weren't the case.

I love sprint cars. Non wing is simply my preference not my rule. The idea of seeing more sprint cars in a night sounds awesome but as a part of what I believe to be the most astute racing fans around, (sprint cars) I'm not going act like there's not a trade off to be considered here.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

Im a fan and have no dog other than I come to Bloomington about 3 times a year on a 350mi round trip pay my addmission and eat concessions.

I don't give a crap what a car looks like, If its good racing, I'll watch it. If a class has some drivers I know from other tracks, Like the Mods do, I'll watch em.

My experience is that Winged heat racing sucks, While a long green feature with wings can be as good as any racing. Try something different, Two 15 lap heats and a 30 lap feature if your going to run wings, Get em some laps and the chance to actually race instead of hanging on for the final 7 laps of a 8 lap heat. Until everyone's getting dirty air. There is no racing.

Two. Is this going to deplete or increase the headliner class? The reason i come in the first place and the track has had a few weeks with non 20 car fields already if some of the existing teams drop out of the 410s to do it. Whats the incentive for me to come?

Don't get me wrong, I think experience in both types of cars helps drivers become better.

I don't buy the More flips in NW or even the safety thing other than helping keep foreign objects from the cockpit with the wing.

I also think people way overestimate the popularity of wings. I don't remember the crowds being any bigger on weekly winged shows back in the 80s-90s. The WoO is a different story. All the tracks kicked the Midwest All Stars out as a inferior product to their weekly NW racing.

I don't know how it will work. I hope it work's for the track. I wish it was NW. Im sorry, thats my preference,

I also don't buy the wing making rookies better, Ive seen a bunch of kids come straight from karts or TQ's and with a couple races of 410 experience, Start moving forward in the big class.

It is what it is, my opinion don't count for much. I just think other than the feature, We'd see much better racing NW, The reason a fan comes in the first place, And more importantly, The reason a fan comes back!

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

These guys are talking about another support class. One that might complement their Premier class. As a support class racer I have noticed that about 5% of the racers will move up to another division, We call them "Hot Shoes" about 30% will get started and decide racing is just not for them and move on to something else, That leaves you with the 65% of us racers in the support classes that keep the thing going.

Winged 305 Sprints in the final analysis is going to be just another form of racing that some people will try out and move on>>> either up or out while the majority hopefully will stay with it and enjoy their racing experience, maybe helping out the hot shoes a bit by giving them competition to hone their skills on and also putting up with the wannabees who haven't decided just how much they are willing to sacrifice in order to race.

CHILL and don't put so much passion in a track's desire to experiment looking for a better way to put on an enjoyable show for the race fans, be they in the Grand Stands the in the Pits.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

I would be interested in hearing from the 600 and TQ teams as to what their plan is. I certainly don't wish any ill will to the small tracks but I've always hoped for a way those teams could could make it more often to the big tracks.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

My concern is I have what these over winged, over tired even if they are 305s will do to a race track. And I know how they lobby to eliminate any type of cushion.
That being said if they run the sprint cars 1st and then the winged cars 2nd it may make the mods and other classes very happy and make the mod racing better as the mechanical bite they buy will be helped by the aero bite the winged cars have killing off the track. And you have a class that those who can't for whatever reason race a sprint car can get into
We have learned in this area the winged cars, mods, and late models all prefer the icy slick to rubbered down nothing bigger than a sheep foot hole with no cushion allowed track.
Here when they do invite the sprint cars they run last and idle the turns with a little bit of throttle from the corner to the flag stand.

So will it be Flat top or dish wings?...Used dish wings are easier to to come by being no one in the higher level Wing class are aloud to run them. As for the tire rule if they make them run the Hooiser Medium that would mean a 305 guy from another track will have to buy that tire. Same goes for the H15 or the spec Racesaver tire...
The best thing to do it a open tire rule and any top wing. That would make it less costly for the lower buck guys. They can go out and buy any used top wing and any tires they want.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

I sincerely respect your right to your opinion. However, I think it would have much more validity if it was based upon the following: 1) real life exposure as opposed to media i.e. movies, videos, etc. 2) direct experience with what one is opining about; in my case I know the older I got the smarter my father became 3) tattoos, no issue but they are sometimes a "permanent reminder of a temporary feeling" to quote Jimmy Buffett. I certainly welcome younger fans as yourself because as you correctly say, they are much needed by our sport.:D

My whole reason to start this was it flat doesn't make sense money wise for the teams. They chose the higher priced 305 engine rules, and also put wings on them. Why??? Why not ask the racers to attend a meeting to explore the idea before announcing the package? Why doesnt the track participate in ANY of these public discussions? Wings, $7,500 engines and a Hoosier tire rule have been proven to NOT save teams ANY money, period! I yet again ask those who participate in this discussion to have facts not opinion to add. Still have yet to see any one person have a fact that makes sense why the wings need to be on them. There is a reason why no tracks in Indiana run wings. I was around and participating in the races when Put and Kokomo were the only non wing tracks. If there is a reason for the wings I am all ears. But I can see no logical reason to add $2,000 of aluminum to a race operation plus the maint/repair/replace expenses. The fact that I have not seen anything from those who propose this idea bothers me. Are they listening? I would love to speak with some one from the track about this. To me non wing cars with $5,000 or less engines and use same tires that race on current cars makes much more sense to me.

Bob

Indiana has come a long ways pal ! They now have a tattoo/piercing section so that u can set with those of your kind and feel " normal".



The previous statement was heavily laced with sarcasm and God awful grammar

In my opinion a underpowered 305 without a wing would be a tommy tip over show. I have seen a lot of guys get out of trouble by gassing it up. Jmo

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

The engine rules are great in my opinion! Flat lifters, No roller cams, wet sump, spec head. Someone can spend 7000 if they want but but not required. build your own motor and have it sealed. I think it can be done for 4000 to 5000. Roller cam setup is the biggest problem for failure of the 410's. roller lifter with the bar that prevents rotation is a weak point. these break and destroy other components.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

Bloomington Speedway 1-812-824-7400 They may be able to help with any questions

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

I'd think Knoxville raceways 305 rules are higher priced than the race saver 305 rules

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

I believe knoxville has non roller cam engines as well. They do allow some additional head options and also some titanium internal parts.

I have an idea, the people that hate running wings try it for one year. Then sell them in the off season along with the 305 build a 410. When I got my first Harley it was a sportster rode it for a while then bought a softail.

Dam!! That's ironic!! My ex wife was a soft tail ! She ran off and now I got a sportster!!

Shoulda bought a 'busa!! More accurate analogy. ;) LOL

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

@Racer12
As far as the rebuilds on motors...for one, i don't feel that wings make that big of a difference. two, racesaver 305's can be run for years on end. I know teams running motors 4 years. Now, that isn't to say that rebuilding every season isnt best, but it isn't required. and 15-20 races is obnoxious (not bashing you, i'm making a point). Even to refresh every season there is no reason you cannot run 30 races +

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

At Fremont Ohio they run wing 410's and wing 305's. We can tell the difference because the wing 305's run closer and provide more side by side racing. The wing 410's just run around in single file in all the races except the feature when traffic might impact the high speed parade.

Thanks Wil,

I guess that's what I was trying to convey but just did a poor job at it. It needs to be it's own class, have it's own identity. Again that's just my opinion.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

Here is proof from another NE 305 driver. Just posted this on his facebook page.

"The tank is coming out!! 45+ shows without a single issue. And still fast enough to run top in time trials and finish 7th with some of the best 305s around! Heading back to Thomas Rider so he can work his magic!" 45 races on a refresh and still competitive. This class is FAR more affordable than people originally realize.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

I totally understand where you're coming from. My sprint car experience is pretty much split 50/50 winged and non-winged 360's in Southern Az for a good 4 solid years of 15-20 shows/year. We never had the $$ for any kind of 410 stuff to go to SoCal for the CRA shows. Stayed between El Paso and Phx and ran everywhere in between.

And I know that my time in the sport doesn't hold a candle to some of the folks on here by a longshot. But its a way to read and learn and get a glimpse of what the rest of the country experiences.

Stick with racesavers rules.

Re: Why wings for 305 class?
 

Also take this into consideration. Most tracks the 305's are racing here in the east are 3/8's to a 5/8's a mile. If a guys getting 45 races out of a 305 running on tracks like Williams Grove, Port Royal and Bridgeport, then you should not have a hard time match numbers close to that on a 1/4 mile.

Was at bloomington outlaw show that 305 grunted pretty hard when track was heavy not going to get many nights out of it on that kinf of track now on the other hand if its black slick yes get more nights out of it so what is bloomington going to do cater to 305 or 410 just wondering cant please both just like trying to run sprints and late models together jmo