Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by bloard:
I understand your point Don, but think you are oversimplifying by talking about announcers and EMT's. There's a price for recreation and entertainment that I'm willing to pay as an owner in order to be able to race my car. That's my hobby. It's not a business or occupation. And, as most hobbies, I don't do it expecting that I'm going to get paid for it. I just hope that at the end of the night I'm as close to paying the bills as I can be. Any profit from a night is gravy.

The EMT may or may not be a race fan and is there doing their occupation. Their hobby might be fishing. Don't assume that everyone at the track is there by choice. The hot dog vender gets paid to be there as well, but they aren't seeing much racing selling the dogs.

Now.. .as I said, the drivers and cars are the show and I agree that to an extent they shouldn't be paying to put on the show. But I would like to know your bright line on who on the back side shouldn't be paying?

Should my driver walk in free because he's the show? Should he pay something for his insurance coverage?

Should I as an owner walk in free because without my car, there is no show?

Should my wife walk in free because without her letting me blow this money on race cars there wouldn't be a car?

Should my crew walk in free because they are the ones making sure the car runs to put on the show?

Your answer to all of these might very well be "Yes". And I ask these questions sincerely to flush out your position in more concrete terms. Everyone in the pits can't walk in free or else nobody's going to pay to go to the grandstands. So where does this line on who shouldn't pay to put on the show get drawn?

bloard don'ty know you , but that's the best answer i've heard to MR. DON MOORE .

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by ThePurple73:
I totally understand where Don is coming from.

So how can the dilema be fixed?

I wonder how a race track ownership "Co-op" would work?
Much like a farmer owned co-op you see in ag states.

The car owners and/or interested parties would take part in the ownership.
You could have overall ownership shares and/or yearly shares also.

Instead of running for a purse that is a fraction of the nights revenue,
you would be racing for a much bigger take. The proceeds of the night paid to the shareholders thus helping finance partners racing. Figure out ways too actively increase purses.
With the number of midget, sprint and champ car owners in Indiana alone, why couldn't something like this work?
If this was successful it would help with purses everywhere, because you could show the financial model and purse model could work.
If you build something special you could definately get advertisiers.

Example: Build a big half mile-quarter mile combo track about 15 miles or so south of Indy. Advertise well. Build stands for 20k people to start with. If you could incease purse size plus know you were making money from the event it's self, could create car counts that would be really big.
People would probably come to see car counts of 50-70 cars.
Have many more midget races and combine them with sprint shows.
Also have champ car nights as many of the ownership group would benefit from that also.

I think it would be worth examining a business case for something like this.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Not trying to be totally negative here but I have a few questions. First one would be who is going to pay for building this big half-quarter mile combo track about 15 miles or so South of Indy? With grandstands to seat 20K people to start with, where are you going to get the fans from to fill these seats? What night would you plan on racing and which current tracks are you proposing to put out of business? Indiana is saturated with dirt tracks and a new one certainly won't work without pulling both fans and cars from other tracks.

Friday night you have Bloomington, Gas City & Union County. Saturday night you have Lawrenceburg, Twin Cities, Brownstown, Paragon, Lincoln Park, Waynesfield & Montpelier. Sunday night is Kokomo. Add in special events tracks like Tri State and Terre Haute as well as pavement tracks like ORP, Winchester & Salem. Also on the pavement side you have Anderson, Speedrome, Mt. Lawn, Baer Field, Plymouth all that run on Saturday night. Who loses the cars and fans and is forced to close among this group? There are 12 tracks racing on Saturday night currently without any competition from the special events tracks. Plus, I am sure I am missing some along the way. Add those in and no wonder the grandstands need some more butts. I don't see a positive in this one at all.:19: Sorry.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by bloard:
So where does this line on who shouldn't pay to put on the show get drawn?

I figured out really quick the line is drawn at what Don can get for free. Don wants pit passes for himself to be free, his tires to be free, his engines to be free and just about given whatever he wants for free. If he doesn't get it then well he can just get on here and bash them for high costs, playing favorites, cheating, illegal aliens, and whatever else he can think.

He wants to pass the cost of his car onto other teams, crew members, and fans. Simple as that.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by USAC Fan:
I figured out really quick the line is drawn at what Don can get for free. Don wants pit passes for himself to be free, his tires to be free, his engines to be free and just about given whatever he wants for free. If he doesn't get it then well he can just get on here and bash them for high costs, playing favorites, cheating, illegal aliens, and whatever else he can think.

He wants to pass the cost of his car onto other teams, crew members, and fans. Simple as that.

How many more screen names are you going to hide behind on IOW?

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Don, I've enjoyed the discussion but at the end of the day I'm going to have cars at this event in all three classes (midget, non-wing 410, wing 360). If it's anything like past events there, I think we can agree it will be deserving of my support and I am sure I'll give it Three Cheers at the end of the night. Especially since:

"THESE PEOPLE HAVE SET THE STANDARD OF HOW MIDGET RACING SHOULD BE PROMOTED. We need more people like the Gundakers, POWRi and Tony Barhorst to bring midget racing back to where it should be." - Don Moore 10/12/2008

https://www.indianaopenwheel.com/showthread.php?t=10315

Agree?

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by bloard:
Don, I've enjoyed the discussion but at the end of the day I'm going to have cars at this event in all three classes (midget, non-wing 410, wing 360). If it's anything like past events there, I think we can agree it will be deserving of my support and I am sure I'll give it Three Cheers at the end of the night. Especially since:

"THESE PEOPLE HAVE SET THE STANDARD OF HOW MIDGET RACING SHOULD BE PROMOTED. We need more people like the Gundakers, POWRi and Tony Barhorst to bring midget racing back to where it should be." - Don Moore 10/12/2008

https://www.indianaopenwheel.com/showthread.php?t=10315

Agree?

Hey, I wish you the best! These discussions are academic. Thanks for your input.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by bloard:
Don, I've enjoyed the discussion but at the end of the day I'm going to have cars at this event in all three classes (midget, non-wing 410, wing 360). If it's anything like past events there, I think we can agree it will be deserving of my support and I am sure I'll give it Three Cheers at the end of the night. Especially since:

"THESE PEOPLE HAVE SET THE STANDARD OF HOW MIDGET RACING SHOULD BE PROMOTED. We need more people like the Gundakers, POWRi and Tony Barhorst to bring midget racing back to where it should be." - Don Moore 10/12/2008

https://www.indianaopenwheel.com/showthread.php?t=10315

Agree?

Bloard........Don't know who you are, but I think you just got my vote for "Car Owner of the Year".

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

I attended Crystal Motor Speedway a few weeks ago. Several drivers in sprint cars, and other classes, were racing more than one class. While each car had to pay an entry fee, each driver only had to pay ONCE! A driver is paying admission in to the pits, not a fee to race. That is what the car entry fee is for. What next, each crew member has to buy more than one pit pass to work on more than one car? It is the same thing.

My point is if a little podunk track in the middle of Michigan does not want to rip the racers off, then why does a nationally known track?

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by :
If the midget orgs ever decided that they were going to do something about the rediculous costs of running a midget team, this discussion may not need to take place. Case in Point:

MIDGET AND SPRINT CAR MAG OCT 2010 page 25

Metric Racing engines in Tulsa, OK

Ecotec 2.4 liter midget engine COMPLETE $10,995.

I've printed this before and here goes again: I have a fresh midget engine in my garage that I bought that was rebuilt before the sale and the price tag for the rebuild was $7600.

Now.. There's not much difference between $7600 and $10,995.

I am well aware of many that come on here praising the Esslinger XT engine for $23,000. sorry... that's way too much for owners to be spending on an engine for the purses paid.

Bottom line, if we can buy a brand new midget engine for a little more than a rebuild.... this is a no brainer. What part of cheap do the midget orgs not understand?????

Don, I don't dispute that these Ecotech engines, or one of the production based DOHC offerings from Honda, Toyota etc. make some sense on paper. But from what I have read about the Revolution Racing Ecotech, it's putting out about 250 HP. I'm gonna guess that's between 80 and 100 HP less than your and my Gaerte block Chevy engines, and 130+ HP less than some engines out there.

So, lets say that we make a 250 HP ecotech type engine the standard for midgets. What exactly do you and I do with our Gaertes? What do guys do with the slingers and Fontana's etc? It's not like there's a really big market out there for a 350HP 166ci custom block 4 cyliner that needs freshened every 200 miles.

So that ecotech doesn't just cost me $11,000. It costs me $11,000 plus the value of my current engines which are of no value to anyone.

In another post you estimated that there are 250-300 midgets within 500 miles of St. Louis. Let's say the average midget has only one engine in it with an average value of 10,000. Essentially you are saying that in order to improve the sport you are going to take $2.5 million dollars of capital out of the sport just within 500 miles of St. Louis by making those 250 current engines boat anchors.

I understand your theory is that it costs you $7,500 to freshen it, so you might as well just junk it and spend $3,000 more for an ecotech. But I don't buy it. I just replaced every part except bare head, crank, and cam on mine for about half of your $7,500 number. We have it totally apart again today hoping we can run get a head gasket and bearings in the morning and assemble it in time to make it to Granite City tomorrow night. We can work on this Chevy in house which saves money and adds a ton of fun. I'm not sure we can do that with an echotech style motor - especially if it is sealed.

That's the part of this I don't understand. I would like to hear your take on where this logic is incorrect - as I'm sure you or Keith Iaia will find it to be.

I'll race a 250HP engine. Just find somebody to give us 250 car owners the collective 2.5 million we are going to lose by doing it.

BTW, I'm one of the proud owners of both a 410 and 360 sprint car engine on account of the bright idea that a 360 is going to save the sport money. Yea, having to own and maintain two motors instead of one just to be able to race whatever happens to be running close to home is sure a money saver. Whatever happens with midgets... don't let that happen.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

I've read your previous post and understand your argument regarding current engines. Somewhere along the line, something has to give regarding the current makeup of a midget. The current model, despite the success that is happening in ARDC and POWRi, is not working and if that model continues, the sport of midget racing will eventually die. That's quite obvious when you survey the entire picture of midget racing from coast to coast. Is it growing... no. Is it declining.... yes. We can debate that till the cows come home but just reading the posts here on IOW suggests that many fans are growing tired of the product or lack of it (let's see...will 2, 5, 10, 20 cars show up tonight ).

Two things about the fans today: They want to see large car counts at races. Yes, many years ago car counts were around 18-20, but that's not working today. Secondly, it has been proven here on IOW in an unscientific survey that fans don't care about how fast a midget goes around the track. They want to see good side by side racing and keen competition.

Now regarding the Ecotec engine for around $10,000: I just read last night of a race team who has their midget engine for sale in the classifieds and they are claiming they spent $12,000 on a rebuild. I know of these people and I don't think they would put that in the ad if it weren't true. I have a bill of sale here at my house for a rebuild of over $7600. I also currently own 4 midget engines, so I'm also part of the mix.

Now, you very well know that midget engines do not last forever competitively. They must be rebuilt. That is part of the problem. Some have to be rebuilt after only a few races. The bottom line is they are not going to last forever without putting a significant amount of money into them. Yes, I understand that you are rebuilding an engine by yourself, but IMO most teams are not doing that and don't have the capabilities to do that work. So, for example, if you own a Slinger... it's got to be shipped to CA and back to where ever. Even more expense.

Let's assume that you have an engine and it needs a rebuild. It's no longer competitive. So what are you going to do with it? You either spend the money to rebuild or it sits in your garage and you try to sell it for a price minus a rebuild charge. So it's not worth very much in it's present state. Here we go with my point: You either spend $7600-12,000 (insert ur own figure if you want) or you could buy a new engine that's supposed to last for up to 100 races for $10,000+ and use over he counter parts, saving even more money in the long run.

What are you going to do with the old engine? Well... the automobiles that we drive are somewhat in the same boat. Declining value each year. What are you going to do with them when they wear out? Same thing. You provided a large money figure that would be spent on new engines. Well... that same amount would be put to a new engine that uses less expensive parts and lasts 20 times longer. This sounds like a win-win situation to me over the long haul. Much cheaper engines and maintenance equals more race cars in service, more revenue for track owners and larger car counts for the fans.

When I first started watching midgets race they had 110 Offy's. That's a long ways from the current cubes of 166+. Is the racing today any better today than it was back then? Well... some people would say yes. I would have to say there is no difference. I enjoyed it back then and I enjoy the present cars also. Is a more powerful engine going to put more fans in the stand. I don't think so. Will more cars at the track and better racing side by side do it. Yes.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

But my point is... If suddenly next year my motor is obsolete by rule and I'm sitting on a perfectly good and fresh motor or two I now have to spend $11k just to race... knowing that I can't get anything out of my current engines. At that point I'm just going to cut my losses with this midget and sell a roller.

How do you propose to transition from 350+ HP motors to 250 HP motors and maintain a car count among those people who can't afford to make the switch and are sitting on an otherwise perfectly good and fresh motor? Sincere question because you might have a perfectly valid answer.

I have no doubt that given time the ASCS2 with the ecotech is going to build some car count in the Plains states - especially with Hahn's backing as it's been done before with sprint cars. But I'd much prefer to find a rules package for an DOHC modern production based engine that puts it closer to the 300-325 HP range. At that point you can jump off into one and actually be competitive on some short tracks and slicked off tracks against the current crop of engines.

And how are you going to make a rules package to keep people from getting exotic with the base DOHC ecotech type motor? Has Iaia gotten the most power out of this configuration that is possible? Doubtful. I bet with another $100k of R&D and exotic parts you can put 50+ more HP in one of those. So, unless it's going to be a focus style single manufacturer, sealed engine type of deal across the country then you really haven't solved much. You've just bought a new puzzle to throw money at.

And if HP doesn't matter, is there really that much difference between a 250 HP ecotech and a 180HP Focus motor? Plenty of those sitting around. What's your argument why we should stop at the Ecotech instead of just going all the way down to a Focus only rule? All of your points would be equally valid. Which of your points in support of going to an ecotech isn't equally as valid in going to a Focus?


As it stands, despite the occasional success that is cited, a 250HP engine can't very well transition against 350+ hp motors. What I don't want to have happen is what my current sprint car predicament is... Own one motor to travel West and another with more HP and different rules to travel East.

This discussion is a long way from discussing multiple pit pass charges. Pretty tied up the rest of the day. We'll save it for another day, Don.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by :
How do you propose to transition from 350+ HP motors to 250 HP motors and maintain a car count among those people who can't afford to make the switch and are sitting on an otherwise perfectly good and fresh motor? Sincere question because you might have a perfectly valid answer.

Just a stupid fan here (we never get respect on IOW), I say let 'em all run and use rev limiters or chips or restrictors on the big engines to match 'em up and let 'em all race together. I could be completely wrong though.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

I started the thread and the underlying theme is the cost of maintaining a midget whether it be a pit pass or an engine rebuild so it's all good on this topic.

I may not be doing a very good job of explaining myself and it may be that you need to call me to really understand what I'm talking about.

Let's try this again. I think that everyone can agree that midget racing needs to be reinvented and a clean sheet of paper brought out. Yes, I'm well aware that there are a small minority of car owners that want to keep things as they are and most of them have deep pockets and can afford anything you want to lay down on the table. Midget racing is being controlled by a few.. it's like the tail wagging the dog and barriers have been thown up protecting special interests and money or political favors being negotiated. We need to get beyond that. How that happens, I don't know. It may be that the sport of midget racing has to get so much on the ropes that the orgs are forced to do something. We are already headed down the hill as it is and it's only in time when the judgement day arrives. Now back to my point.

There is not a person on this earth or in outer space or the moon or any other place that can justify keeping the exotic engines going that we have today and I own four of them so I'm deeply involved it this also. Now... the Ecotech engine or it's equivalent is being built with over the counter parts (ASFIK), selling for $10,000+ and it's performance has been somewhere between a Focus and an exotic engine. That's been proven in CA already. The engine reps say it's good for 100 races. And I believe it has a self starter.

Let's now calculate the cost of racing one of these engines over a period of 5 years as opposed to an exotic engine and let's assume you already own an exotic engine that needs a rebuild. Furthermore, let's take a figure that I heard for a Slinger rebuild @ $4400 plus shipping at $1000. That's around $5500 so far. And let's assume that rebuild is good for 15 races. The car owner model runs 30 races in a season, for example POWRi. @ 30 races, we are now up to $11,000 in one year's time for the exotic engine rebuild. For 5 years, that would be $55,000. Are we good so far?

Now let's look at the Ecotech costs. Initial investment is $10,995 rounding off to $11,000. The model car owner in theory according to the engine reps will go for 100 races. That's approximately 3 1/2 years @30 races per year. And let's assume that since it uses over the counter parts that a rebuild will be less than the exotic engine. Let's put the rebuild at $2500 and that amount would not be spent until after 3 1/2 years and would last beyond the 5 year window that we are talking about.

When it's all said and done the exotic engine over a period of 5 years will cost you $55,000 to maintain. The Ecotech will have cost you over the same time period $13,500.

That is a savings of $41,500. Now... Maybe you should stop someone on the street and ask them if they would rather pay $13,500 or $55,000 for an item that basically does the same thing.

AND... furthermore, if the package has a self starter, the promoters will be jumping for joy that they don't have to deal and hire with push trucks. Ask any promoter in the country if they want to do away with them and see what they say. I love watching the push trucks but it's time for them to go. And.. if the promoter doesn't have to pay the push truck guys ( and BYW, I heard from one promoter that he has to pay them $$$$$$$$$$) maybe, just maybe, the drivers/owners won't have to pay the promoters to entertain his fans.

AND.... along with all of this, the tire deal/tire costs/compound adjustment/wheel size needs to be visited ASAP.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

I make pretty good money and pay my bills announcing. I think ill have to keep doing it.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

The problem that I see Don is that you continually state a premise that everyone agrees with... "Costs are excessive"

But when it comes time to crack the nut, you say:

Originally Posted by :
How that happens, I don't know.

So, what I've been trying to get you to do is get past the fluff of stuff we all can agree on..
1. Are engines too expensive given the return? YES
2. Would it be great to have a $10,000 engine that lasts 100 nights and be competitive? YES
3. Are more cars and larger car counts important for the sports future? YES

You are arguing with yourself when you raise these points because the rest of us totally agree. But when it comes time to solve the problem of how do you get from point A to point B we find we are all in agreement there as well with the answer being, "I don't know."

I'm the first to admit that I don't have all of the answers. Heck, I don't have ANY answer. But at times on here Don, you throw around an obvious premise as if it is the answer or some great revelation without offering a real, hard core, workable solution.

I'm serious when I say... Don, show us the way. Give me a road map and time frame on how this sport is going to get from $30,000 10 night engines to $10,000 100 night ones. Enough pointing out the problems. We all get them. Let's hear the solution... A concrete workable solution that gets us from A to B.

I think the first step in that plan would be for you to go out and buy an Ecotech and start running it. In fact, in all honesty I'm looking for another little Chevy. Sell me your best horse and use that money to buy an Ecotech and then it will cost you nothing.

I would honestly like to see what it does in a great car like the Don Moore 10. If you did well, you might actually be taking a first step in convincing the rest of us to come along for the ride - and thereby be the one who saved the sport from ourselves. But I don't personally think you will bring a knife to a gun fight... until the rest of us are just carrying knives as well. The path to disarmament, Don?

On my way to Granite now... without a midget. Ran out of time. I need a more reliable engine... lol.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

The ASCS Eco-Tec with the ECU only made about 150 hp with around 130 pounds of torque.

With the new Engler injection; the Ascs Motor(Notice I didn't mention Reveloution Eco-Tec) makes about 180hp with about 175 pounds of torque.

Why is 21 "Midgets" (Combined classes) at Logansport a good car count and 19 USAC Midgets at Eldora a bad one? How are two cars the seperating line?

Why doesn't anyone complain when the local sprint races "only" get 21 to 25 cars at a track?

Combined classes or what have you....whatever. If thats what people feel it takes to get cars and have a promotor feel secure enough to book a race...then go for it.


Hey Don....didn't the rebuild on the MoPar you bought also include a new Engler injection? That is a one time fee and not a true indication of the motors rebuild cost.

By the way....I am one who feels the sport has never been better in terms of competition. Instead of 3-6 cars capable of winning, you have as many as 12-17 per night capable of winning.

As far as what the person on the street thinks...why do I care? I sacrafice(have sacraficed) to do what I want to do and spend my money on as do they.

Only; I have(had) racecars and they had a boat or horses or McMansion or Theater Room or kids involved in traveling sports etc...all of which are extremely expensive and seem crazy to those who don't find that an appealing past time.

If you have a race car, find a place where you want to race it. If you can't find one, start one. If you don't start one, sell it and buy a car in a class that fits. If no class fits; sell it and find something that you like.

Thats not directed at Don....just owners in general.

People want a "fix" and an "answer". They never find one because there isn't one. There are just options and opportunities.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Yes, I'll eventually make it out the door... But one more thing just occurred to me on the original topic of this thread...

I did some really rough estimating of the total weekend purse at Tri City and some rough math on the expected back gate.

I figure...

Total midget purse over 3 nights totals about $55,000, maybe more.
Total sprint purse over 3 nights totals about $25,000.

That's a total purse of about $80,000. Plus at least $20k of overhead in insurance, sanction fees, power, labor, advertising, etc, etc.

So lets call it an even $100,000 to put on this show.

Backgate:

Midgets: 50 midgets x 4 pit passes per x 3 nights x $35 = $21,000 plus $7500 in "entry fees" = $28,500 total back gate from midgets. That's about half of the $55,000 midget purse. So for every dollar the midgets contribute, they will get $2 back collectively.

Sprints: Same kind of math, estimating 30 cars for 3 nights = $12,600 (no entry fee). Again, about 50% of the total purse.

So they are getting about $40,000 out of the back gate in a show that's going to cost at least $100,000. They are counting on a $60,000 front gate and concession to make this work.

Do that same math with your typical POWRi or similar show and you will see that this event is exactly the opposite of what Don claims it is. This is a front gate show. A $60,000+ gamble that enough people will walk through the grandstands to make it work.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by bloard:
Yes, I'll eventually make it out the door... But one more thing just occurred to me on the original topic of this thread...

I did some really rough estimating of the total weekend purse at Tri City and some rough math on the expected back gate.

I figure...

Total midget purse over 3 nights totals about $55,000, maybe more.
Total sprint purse over 3 nights totals about $25,000.

That's a total purse of about $80,000. Plus at least $20k of overhead in insurance, sanction fees, power, labor, advertising, etc, etc.

So lets call it an even $100,000 to put on this show.


Backgate:

Midgets: 50 midgets x 4 pit passes per x 3 nights x $35 = $21,000 plus $7500 in "entry fees" = $28,500 total back gate from midgets. That's about half of the $55,000 midget purse. So for every dollar the midgets contribute, they will get $2 back collectively.

Sprints: Same kind of math, estimating 30 cars for 3 nights = $12,600 (no entry fee). Again, about 50% of the total purse.

So they are getting about $40,000 out of the back gate in a show that's going to cost at least $100,000. They are counting on a $60,000 front gate and concession to make this work.

Do that same math with your typical POWRi or similar show and you will see that this event is exactly the opposite of what Don claims it is. This is a front gate show. A $60,000+ gamble that enough people will walk through the grandstands to make it work.

Reading your post gives me heartburn. Its what all promotors do each week, gamble on massive dollars. I've been on both sides, and being a promotor is much more of a gamble, at least when i raced i knew going in what i could win or lose, being a promotor you have no idea what you'll do for the weekend, you could make a little bit of money or you could lose alot of money. Thank God i love what i do.
Have a great weekend everyone and i hope to see you at the races.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by bloard:
Yes, I'll eventually make it out the door... But one more thing just occurred to me on the original topic of this thread...

I did some really rough estimating of the total weekend purse at Tri City and some rough math on the expected back gate.

I figure...

Total midget purse over 3 nights totals about $55,000, maybe more.
Total sprint purse over 3 nights totals about $25,000.

That's a total purse of about $80,000. Plus at least $20k of overhead in insurance, sanction fees, power, labor, advertising, etc, etc.

So lets call it an even $100,000 to put on this show.

Backgate:

Midgets: 50 midgets x 4 pit passes per x 3 nights x $35 = $21,000 plus $7500 in "entry fees" = $28,500 total back gate from midgets. That's about half of the $55,000 midget purse. So for every dollar the midgets contribute, they will get $2 back collectively.

Sprints: Same kind of math, estimating 30 cars for 3 nights = $12,600 (no entry fee). Again, about 50% of the total purse.

So they are getting about $40,000 out of the back gate in a show that's going to cost at least $100,000. They are counting on a $60,000 front gate and concession to make this work.

Do that same math with your typical POWRi or similar show and you will see that this event is exactly the opposite of what Don claims it is. This is a front gate show. A $60,000+ gamble that enough people will walk through the grandstands to make it work.

Actually, Saturday's A Main alone pays $58,000. Looks like the preliminary nights have an A Main purse of just over $8,000. That puts us at nearly $75,000 just for Midget A Main purses.

I'd say the total purse for this weekend is somewhere in the $110,000 to $120,000 range, adding in both divisions on the card...

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

I stepped away from the computer for a few hours and I see you guys have been hard at work posting various thoughts on here. Let me try to address a few of them.

1. To Baue.. I took the time to research the rebuild sheet on my fresh engine. NO... Engler injection was not part of the $7607.00 cost to rebuild the power plant. So my $7607.00 stands valid. I hope this puts this issue of the cost of a rebuild to rest. Yes, engines do cost that much and more to rebuild.

2. To Baue.. You can list all the statistics you want on here about engines but..as I pointed out... Fans could care less about what an engine does. They are interested in good competitive racing with a lot of action. I've seen plenty of that with quarter midgets and those are tiny engines in comparison. This topic about what fans look for in a race is documented on IOW several months ago. Post after post was about competitive racing, not about how fast a midget goes around the track.

3. To Baue.. Fans today want to see lots of cars at a race track. Read the posts on here. It's a huge topic. and, fans expect a lot of cars to show up for a USAC race at Eldora. Read the posts again. It didn't happen. For an open competition race like US24 in the middle of nowhere with 21 cars present, that's pretty good. This was a first time for that event... while USAC has been at it since 1956.

4. Again to Baue... Yes, there probably are more cars capable of winning a race today. The number of multimillionaire teams has taken over the sport. They're all trying to out spend each other and this type of activity is causing the sport to take on $$$$$$$$$$$$$ stigma. Read the posts on MM regarding the Cheese state midgets. I didn't write what they have to say, but they're saying the same thing I've been saying. I guess I have plenty of company agreeing with me.

5. To Bloard... I hate communicating with someone on IOW that doesn't tell who they are, especially when you get down and personal with my race team. I take full responsibility for what I write. Not many are willing to do that. All you have to do is go back and read any thread that I've been heavily involved with and read all the insulting and degrading remarks directed toward me. That's why you hear from very few owners on this web site. They don't want to put up with the stalkers, nonsense and micromanaging of their race team.

6. To Bloard and others...... I started this thread to have a general discussion about the topic and the possible effects of it across the country. It's a general discussion, not about one promoter or promotion but promotions of racing everywhere. Again, some of you want to turn it into an assault on my personal management of my race team. My race team has nothing to do with the topic, so get over it. The fact that I have race cars has nothing to do with the general discussion. The discussion is about a broad spectrum, much like a sociology class where they study large bodies of society and their behavior.

7. To Bloard... I'm well aware of the purse at the Illinois event. I was there two years ago with my number 10 when they had over 60 cars and a huge participation from the POWRi regulars. Over half those owners went home with $30 for their effort. I live over 500 miles from that promotion. I made a decision not to participate. I see from the latest entry list that there are about 12 or so POWRi regulars that are racing there. That's about 1/3 of the cars that show up for one of their shows and they only have to drive a few miles to participate............

8. And finally, in answer to getting something done about the midget issue.. I'm only one person. I don't belong to any club or org. I'm way out of the loop, about 300-500 miles out of the loop. I'm one of only two race teams in the US that travel a long distance on a regular basis to race. The other is my good friend Mark Bush who travels from Atlanta, Georgia. I've presented my points of view on the subject. Take it for what it's worth. I'm blasted for it everytime I write about it. I won't be solving the midget problem from my office here in Ohio. Not going to happen. I outlined a plan regarding the engines in this thread. It's basically the same thing I heard from Kevin Miller many months ago on Racin' With D.O. I haven't heard a thing about it since then. Once all of you people stop looking for the trees and start looking at the forest, you may get somewhere. Until then, good luck. If you're in denial about the state of midget racing, try this: Get out a photo of yourself from 10 years ago. Do you look better, worse or the same? Now do some research regarding midgets 10 years ago. You can find all kinds of race results on the internet. Is the state of midget racing better, worse or the same?

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

I stand corrected on the injection,but I contend that isn't the standard cost of a rebuild.

So the fans only car about quantity of quality? I find that hard to believe.

We could go round and round, but like I have stated in the past. It's your cars and you have the right and freedom to race them where you want. I have also said that if people want to run combined races...that too is fine with me.(Not that I am an overlord of any sort)

The people may be with you, but the crowds still seem to show up at the USAC and Powri shows. Maybe not be as big as we would like to see, but bigger than any stand alone shows by groups such as ASCT, IRS and the types of shows like Logansport.

I still contend....If the cost cutting types of series are what the cure is..then why after many years and many different series....has it not caught on? The average seems to be 15-20 cars. If minis are the way to go...why didn't more than 15 or 16 show up at any of the combined shows? As far as Wisconson goes....yes counts are down, but without the split you would have 17-25 cars a night. Great? No....but damn good cars.

Re: Pit Passes & Why You Should be Concerned
 

Originally Posted by :
5. To Bloard... I hate communicating with someone on IOW that doesn't tell who they are, especially when you get down and personal with my race team. I take full responsibility for what I write. Not many are willing to do that. All you have to do is go back and read any thread that I've been heavily involved with and read all the insulting and degrading remarks directed toward me. That's why you hear from very few owners on this web site. They don't want to put up with the stalkers, nonsense and micromanaging of their race team.

Ok Don... while I don't think it amounts to a hill of beans and don't think my opinions should carry any more or less weight with my real name attached to them, if you insist...

Hi all. My name is Kenny [refrain from audience: "Hi Kenny"]. I own a sprint car and midget. My sprint car is the Hefty sponsored number 18 Maxim driven by Mike Hess both wing and non wing. My midget is an old Stealth/Gaerte number B5 and it's my toy that I know virtually nothing about. It has been driven this year in POWRi shows by Brandon Sheppard and Joey Moughan and in Badger races by Richie Camfield (with one win up there I might add).

Yes, I'm the guy that decides to put a great midget driver in a winged sprint, and great winged sprint and late model driver in the midget. Anything else would make way too much sense and be half the fun. We are kind of all about giving friends a chance to do things people say they can't do.

So far this year we have learned that Hess can drive a wing... that 17 yr old Late Model driver Brandon Sheppard can drive open wheel too... and that Richie Camfield hasn't lost his touch and can wheel a midget right through a summer of Chemo without missing a beat. We have also made a ton of great friends.

This isn't a business. This is a hobby. We show up, we have fun, we (or at least I) have a few cold beverages, we watch our car go around in a cirlce, we laugh a heck of a lot, and then we load up and come home. The day I get home and can't say that I had a blast, you're gonna see all my stuff listed in the Classifieds.

So that's who I am, Don. Pretty low budget. But our ratio of fun to dollar spent has to be among the highest anywhere. I seriously doubt that makes my opinions worth an extra grain of salt though.

PS - we do hope that you all join us in saying a prayer that Richie can hear the word "Remission" for his upcoming birthday. If that were to happen we can for sure say that this season has been an unqualified success.

Oh... and that show going on at Tri City this weekend? An absolute BLAST! The most fun I've had at a track all year was last night. Back home with family obligations tonight and have to go watch my beloved Illini get waxed by the Buckeyes tomorrow so I can't make it back, but if you get a chance to make the trip tonight or Saturday, DO IT. It's well worth the same money I just blew on an extra large pizza tonight. Heck of a track, heck of a show, and a heck of a good time.