Re: Is the system broken?
 

How bout this (I know current teams have a wheel inventory, but they could buy new halves, which are reasonable...); how about tires (& wheels) that aren't as wide??? For both SC&Ms...

How would it not be cheaper to make tires that didn't take as much rubber to make???

I had more fun racing on the 8inch wide Illini midget series right rear than anything...

So I must say, when I posted this thread as a point of debate I never thought it would inspire what might be described as vitriol. I titled it as a question. When I interpreted someone I respect who’s in a position to know how cost’s of things affects regional racers as concerned, I threw it out there to see what everyone else might think. I said it was a fan’s perspective and even said I was not saying I’m right, just my observation. But as they say these days, hater’s gonna hate. I’m going to leave it here though, in the words of Dan Webster
Monopoly - Complete control over the entire supply of goods or a service in a certain market
Sound familiar?

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Dead horse or not, It's a message board and he's following the rules. He likes to talk about racing and about the things involved in racing. Tracks, Tires, Motors, drivers, etc.

I don't know the whole reason, I'm probably a part of it. But half the people I've met on this board don't post anymore. The other half are dead. I can only think the first part is due to the ever devolving of respect.


We don't have to agree on anything. But the rules say respect it. Correct it if it's wrong. I used to learn quite a bit from people like Shuman correcting me as to what the facts were behind something.

In a perfect world a single manufacturer could work as a benevolent dictatorship. Instead we have what we have. Come on March Racing!

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Last year, American Racer came out and said they don't have the tires to sell. So, that doesn't get anyone closer to getting tires. Trust me, when owning a team, it is easier to have one group do the tires so you don't have to have a large amount of wheels. It is definitely cheaper in the end.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Originally Posted by Nut'n but Dirt:
Last year, American Racer came out and said they don't have the tires to sell. So, that doesn't get anyone closer to getting tires. Trust me, when owning a team, it is easier to have one group do the tires so you don't have to have a large amount of wheels. It is definitely cheaper in the end.

And that is as they say, THAT! By a owner and one long enough in the sport to know.

I remember one night at Ascot when Jim Oskie showed up. And he was holding a $19.95
JC Penny Drag Slick. He mounted it. Then started the grooving iron. And hand groved the tire. The whole pits were laughing at Jim.
Well guess who won.

Lynn

Originally Posted by Pitdad:

In the old days (that everyone is so fond of misremembering), a tire war was a BAD thing because it meant more tire failures and accidents. One brand would decide they were going to jump into a series that was running a single brand of tires and introduce a softer compound or change their sidewall stiffness, anything that would bring them short term success. Everyone would flock to those tires, so the original tire manufacturer would change their design and eventually, somebody would go too far and the drivers and teams would pay the price in crashes. One spec tire meant the manufacturer who was AWARDED the contract would know they could invest the engineering necessary to build purpose built tire for the series. They could afford to provide technical support, analyze failures and make adjustments that would keep the tires technology from being the differentiator. NASCAR did it (does it). Indy Car did it (does it). It makes sense for them.





But until then... :deadhorse:

When did this all happen ???? I remember when you could run Goodyears, McCreary or Hoosier and I sure don’t remember all these crashes you are talking about.

I never thought that I would see the day that a right rear cost 365.00 and a left rear cost 410.00. I’d say this will definitely affect car counts this year.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

I think a lot of organizations do, but everyone should certainly have a rule that you have to run one or the other or both in multiple races on a night...

Set a spec tire compound and let the market dictate what people are willing to pay or not pay.

Make the compound hard enough people can get a few races out of them. As far as sealing over goes, I've seen guys buff tires with angle grinders with wire wheels on them and the tires are usable again.

Cost has to be rained in or racing in general is going to become too unaffordable.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

I find there is very little "discussion" on this board. It is out of respect for Bill Gardner and what a huge fan he was that I even continue to be a member of this board.

It's the same guys stirring the pot every freakin' time.

RIP D.O., I think of you often (especially when messing with slot cars!)

Re: Is the system broken?
 

We run a 360 winged car on a shoestring budget, a good friend
Builds our 1 engine and run lots of used parts, not complaining either. We
buy used tires from teams that are able to put new tires on every night
Sometimes 2 new tires. This helps them and really helps small teams like ours. This year probably will be tougher cuz our group has gone to one tire a night rule, good and bad rule, most nights RR will be smoked off, this will limit good used tires for sure. Other side is all teams will be equal on tires so that can help competition. My hop you throw in another mfg’r that can add to cost because different compounds, this will widen the competition gap and racing might not be as competitive, not good for teams, tracks & especially fans, quality car counts and competitive racing needs to be at the forefront
For everyone involved.

So more than one thing can be true at the same time right?

Like multiple tire suppliers end up being more costly for the teams AND that the current tire supplier is taking advantage of their monopoly situation. The two facts aren't mutually exclusive.

The fix happens the next time tire contracts are renewed. Hopefully there are sanctioning bodies that are exploring future options now.

I for one don't feel like having one tire supplier in control of every major dirt series in the country is a good thing. Especially when that supplier is a multi-billion dollar international corporation that the race tire division is a tiny piece. YRMV

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Originally Posted by Hubie48:
I find there is very little "discussion" on this board.

:11:

Other than a few cheap shots, I must have missed the rest of the seven pages of discussion here so far.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

I worked for a tire company (Michael Tire Cincinnati) back in 87-88. There was tire for small cars, Escorts, Cavaliers etc called Englebert (Angle Bear pronounced) It was the best street tire I every seen or owned, Sold itself. I went to a Ft Wayne Comets game and north of indy there were areas of six inches or more of snow on I69 and I could hold highway speed no problem.

88 Continental buys em out. discontinues it and continental hasn't made a tire to match it since. While I'll take the spec saves teams some $$ Im not sure your getting the best possible product that can be made. Continentals priority is dividends.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
I worked for a tire company (Michael Tire Cincinnati) back in 87-88. There was tire for small cars, Escorts, Cavaliers etc called Englebert (Angle Bear pronounced) It was the best street tire I every seen or owned, Sold itself. I went to a Ft Wayne Comets game and north of indy there were areas of six inches or more of snow on I69 and I could hold highway speed no problem.

88 Continental buys em out. discontinues it and continental hasn't made a tire to match it since. While I'll take the spec saves teams some $$ Im not sure your getting the best possible product that can be made. Continentals priority is dividends.

Englebert. Wow, Charles. That name knocked some rust off of this memory bank here.

I can remember reading about their relationship with Ferrari back in the 30s, or so. Enzo got in a pissing contest with whoever was the main supplier for GP racing back then and opted for Englebert, then made in their home country of Belgium. The tires were sub-par but Enzo was determined to make his point.

Looking at Wiki (which anyone can do - this is not my memory reporting now) they were really involved, which much more success, in the 50s both in GP, LeMans, and the Mille Miglia. de Portago's fatal crash in the 1957 Mille Miglia however brought Englebert and Ferrari up on manslaughter changes for it was deemed a blown tire caused the disaster. They were subsequently cleared in 1961.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Engleber...e_manufacturer)

Talk about an open TIRE rule! Pissing contests, failure, success, no balance-of-performance, and people coming up on charges!

I never imagined the company was around as long as you mentioned, Charles.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Well Michael was Uniroyal dealer and Uniroyal owned Englebert till 79 Apparently that's when Continental grabbed it up but we sold em until 88 and they ain't been seen since.

Glad I saved my posts from last month.

’m sick and tired of complaints about a company doing what they need to do to maintain their margin and profit.

I’ve had a price increase in damn near everything I consume for the last two years. Racing isn’t a birthright. If you
don’t want to pay for it, THEN STOP RACING.

I absolutely love and support the consolidation of tire specs. I also love the money that all the tracks / promoters we CHOOSE to race at have cashed that “Hoosier money” for years to support the maintenance of the facilities, their equipment, their points funds, etc.

It’s not a monopoly, it’s a democracy amidst a free market.

Quit it.

But again… what are you actually blaming Hoosier on?

They make a product. They sell a product. They offer money to sanctioning bodies, series and tracks that CHOOSE to take it to run their tires.

The cost to manufacture, distribute, and R&D their tires has increased significantly. So they now charge more. I also pay more for methanol, oil / lubricants, chassis, parts, engine rebuilds, injection, hotels, meals, etc. it’s part of the game.

I also will 100% stay with Hoosier even if given the choice of another brand. Why? Because of their support of the sport and the money they put back into it over several decades. And… they are still testing, evolving new products, etc. When Neil from Hoosier tells me something I listen because I know they’ve put the time, expense, and effort into improving and understanding the product they produce. That also costs money because it’s an employee. That gets paid, has benefits, etc.

I just don’t understand how “they” (Hoosier) have a monopoly. I’m not forced to run their tire the moment I CHOOSE to run a track or series or race that requires it. Much in a similar way that series, sanctioning bodies, promoters, tracks, etc. CHOOSE to align with Hoosier, and have for years. Maybe it’s because it’s a better CHOICE for them. Maybe Hoosier is a better business to deal with.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

TCR57, you have made about eight or nine points with that post, and definitely let all know where you stand on this topic. No wishy-washy banter.

Thank you, and many others, no matter which side of the open tire/spec tire side you are on, for addressing the question of the thread that flagboy55 made and started, debating it, and discussing it.

Gotta love the Winter season!

Thanks Mike for pointing out what was my intention of the thread. There were some points of view that I hadn’t considered that were brought up. I now see that the current system is acceptable to some and I can appreciate their vantage point now that they put some context to it. My opinion however hasn’t changed, but I’m glad to hear the other side

Re: Is the system broken?
 

So??? If Hoosier tire is just a company trying to make a buck and not monopolize then why are Hoosier LR tires more that RR, even though most places is a 4 corner rule that makes all corners a "SPEC" tire? Second, if Hoosier is claiming supply constraints and material cost, why are American Racer tire $140 cheaper? American Racer went up $10 this year and Hoosier went up $50.

My question is, why not let AR tires run, at least it would give the budget racers a little incentive to keep being able to race, maybe, I don't think the promoters only want just a few well funded teams at their shows, what good is that, might as well run another economy class if they are paying only off the car count/pit passes.

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
My question is, why not let AR tires run, at least it would give the budget racers a little incentive to keep being able to race, maybe, I don't think the promoters only want just a few well funded teams at their shows, what good is that, might as well run another economy class if they are paying only off the car count/pit passes.

Contracts. No major series or santioning body is in a position that they can change tire suppliers on a whim.

Not changing, adding, I don't want to see it go in the tank for a lack of cars, and people in the seats . Those on Hoosiers, will stay, just keep the not so wealthy in the pits with the fully funded.

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
Not changing, adding, I don't want to see it go in the tank for a lack of cars, and people in the seats . Those on Hoosiers, will stay, just keep the not so wealthy in the pits with the fully funded.

I'm familiar with a series that used to be Hoosier or AR. Hoosier came in and said if the series signed a contract making them the exclusive tire supplier they would give away one free RR a night and give back money at the end of the season based on tire sales. It was presented to the racers that the end of year kickback would go directly into the point fund. In this instance I'm confident that the tire money goes where it's supposed to.

This is why Hoosier has everyone so tied up. Best case the series breaks the contract and just walks away from the kickbacks. Worst case they get sued and lose, which they would. In the meantime Hoosier would be under no obligation to provide them with any tires.

AR has said they're struggling to service the commitments they already have.

So you're a series director, short-term what are you going to do?

I guess everyone is happy, including the have nots, and I don't have any skin in it anymore, just have to see what comes of it.

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Dang flag boy stir the pot by asking a simple question, how dare you? :5::5: Yes Hoosier should make $$$, yes they give back to series and tracks BUT idk about all series but our free tires got cut in half last season and we have 57 cars average per night between the 2 series, 410 and 305 and they upped the prices and cut the free tires in half due to production. SO.... yes they should make $$$ but upping the sprint car tires how they have over this winter and keeping it on the down low, when this new tire was suppose to cut cost and last longer and be more consistent, something seems a little off. We just had our championship team fold shop and 2 other local teams sell out over the winter, with the current forecast of pricing, as someone said earlier, if you don't wanna pay it don't race, well don't speak something you don't want to happen because its starting to happen on the local level. For those that aren't concerned my guess is you have never been part of a team or owned a car and those that think if you dont wanna pay it dont race, well dont ***** when only 10 to 12 cars show up on a local show.

Duane. I should’ve warned you. Now you should expect to be slandered on this board and others because you have relevant thoughts on racing. But thanks for chiming in

Re: Is the system broken?
 

Okay, I have taken the time to tally up the scores here. Is the system broken? YES vs. NO.

Sifting through all of the shots and banter not answering the question, thus weeding those comments out of the voting tally, here is the current score as I see it:

Yes. It is broken: 7 votes
TQ29m, sp6967, Charles Nungester, kinser, Lead6, kendirt, Duane Hancock

No. It is not broken: 8 votes
BrentTFunk, The Old Coyote, Jonr, Pitdad, NoDramazone2020, Nut’n but Dirt, Joe Schaub, TCR57

Now, you can argue the point as to how you voted, or maybe didn't actually "vote", but this is how I see the score right now. Maybe I misread/misinterpreted your post. All in all, though, it is pert near a split right down the middle.

Mike, I vote broken so we’re tied. And that’s ok because I heard some valid perspectives that I might not have originally considered.

I don't expect to change anyone's opinion but have hung with this thread way longer than I otherwise would have because I feel like there are a lot of people who don't understand how the tire deal works at all.