Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
Wonder what the current percentage is that goes to the driver now days? Just curious.

Depends on the situation. If you are on a WoO team you most likely are on a standard weekly salary(some make 6 figures from that alone) plus a sliding scale on the finish of the car and any incentives for winning certain races or points titles.

Out of curiosity, how much are a set of wings? What’s the cost to paint/ wrap the car with and without a wing? I could be wrong but with the average track size the wing cars run being bigger than what USAC runs, and with how hard they turn those motors, how often do wing motors need freshened in comparison? What’s the cost of the overall motor program, wing vs non wing? Does the consistent high rpm of a wing car put more wear on a rear end? or is the up and down throttling of a non wing just as hard on them? Does the downforce of a wing car stress frames, bars and shocks faster than a non wing car? How much racing fuel is required to complete all season events?

Dunno, but my gut tells me it’s not as simple as announced purses and starting money.

BTW, you don’t see Outlaw drivers pop into a local show because it requires a formal exemption to be allowed to do it. No such thing as just sitting around and suddenly a hankering to run XYZ Speedway hits if your signed on to WoO.

Newer, faster, better and less competitive is what you get. All you have to do is go to Eldora's let's race 2 night, a USAC, WoO double header and the quality of competition between the two is very noticeable. The quality of and depth of the the USAC sprints is deep. Feature field of non wings is competitive and lapping is later in the race.
The WoO feature is noticeable between the haves and the have nots and lapping happens early.
There's more to racing than speed and big budgets. There is no parity in WOO.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Here in Kansas City it's ASCS winged 360 country through and through but between POWRI's WAR and USAC's MWRA traditional sprints are growing pretty good. All we need are some tracks that are not dusty simulated pavement.

I have heard several drivers say they are going wingless because they can't afford to go winged racing competitively but they can afford to be competitive running topless.

It's like everyone always talking about the win money when in reality it's the start money that is causing most of the cars that get parked to get parked.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by Indy:
Newer, faster, better and less competitive is what you get. All you have to do is go to Eldora's let's race 2 night, a USAC, WoO double header and the quality of competition between the two is very noticeable. The quality of and depth of the the USAC sprints is deep. Feature field of non wings is competitive and lapping is later in the race.
The WoO feature is noticeable between the haves and the have nots and lapping happens early.
There's more to racing than speed and big budgets. There is no parity in WOO.

That's YOUR opinion. I think the WoO crowds have a different opinion....

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by Indy:
Newer faster better and less competitive. All you have to do is go to Eldora's let's race 2, a USAC WoO double header and the quality of competition between the two is very noticeable. The quality of and depth of the the USAC sprints is de feature field of non wings are is deep.and lapping is later in the race.
WoO feature is noticeable between the haves and the have not sand lapping happens early.
There's more to racing than speed and big budgets.

i went to that event and if i remember correctly, Tyler Courtney and Robert Ballou were half the track infront of 3rd place and lapped up to 8th place. Just take the 2 biggest wing/non-wing events and compare. in non wing you have 7, 8 drivers that have a real chance of winning. Bacon, Grant, Windom Leary, KTJ, T-Mez Ballou and Cummins. Whereas if the best Winged drivers all race with eachother There's 15 i can name that stand a chance of winning. Winged racing definitely has higher quality drivers thus adding to the reason why Winged Racing is better overall.

I prefer non wing racing. But the dollars follow winged racing. I think that huge billboard up top is a good start for advertising as well. The other thing is drivers. Non wing racing has few hot beds. Most who think they have the talent to compete at the top level, and can afford to do so move to indiana. Winged racing/series are sprinkled on everywhere. For the big event in non wing you’ll be lucky to see 40 cars. The guys who know they won’t make it or are even thinking they may not make the show simply won’t show up. The risk isn’t worth the reward. The non wing game has become somewhat of a clique and a who’s who deal more than racing. I’ve seen stuff fo down that people should be banned or at least suspended for and they get nothing and then seen people do something very minor and get thrown the book at. You’ll never grow a series by having favorites, you’ll also never attract sponsors that way. No one wants to spend their hard earned money on something that’s going to get minimal coverage because he’s not one of the big 5 or what have you with the series. They need better coverage of the races. I think Tony has the right energy but you can tell he’s new to these drivers and this type of racing and that rubs some fans the wrong way. In my personal opinion, as a kid, and still to this day, Johnny Gibson is the best part of a WoO show. And that I’m itself gets people excited to keep coming back. Having someone in the booth passionate and knowledgeable about the sport is worth is it’s weight in gold.

We typically attend about 10-12 WoO races/year, and about 12-15 non-wing (typically USAC, but some MSCS) races/year. We typically see the occasional poor race from both WoO and USAC/MSCS in any given year. I do believe that in the last 5 years, the quality of both the WoO and USAC fields have gotten deeper and the quality throughout has improved.

I had the privilege of speaking with Rico Abreu a few years ago, and he expressed that IN HIS OPINION, midget drivers performed well in winged sprint cars because in midgets it is critical to keep momentum up and the same is true for winged sprint cars. If true, that may explain why guys like Rico, Larson, Zeb Wise, Spencer Bayston, and some others have had a successful transition from midgets to winged sprint cars.

While there has certainly been an improvement in the amount of money that is available for a non-winged sprint for 2021, it still pales in comparison to what is available for the winged sprint cars. Yes, winged cars have higher expenses, particularly in engine rebuilds, but it certainly appears that there is more than 2 times the money to be earned in purses. The payout at Circle City vs. Lawrenceburg is a prime example. Yes, I understand that Circle City is trying to build participation and a fan base, but 10 for a weekly show at Lawrenceburg pays $280 vs. $555 at Circle City. A racer isn’t going to get rich at Circle City, but he at least pays for his pit fees, fuel and a RR tire.

Before everyone says I’m a winged fan, I’ll tell you that is not true. I am a SPRINT CAR fan. I enjoy winged cars at most venues, and non winged cars at most tracks too. I started this thread because I found the comments by Matt Wood and Tim Clausen to be both eye opening and a little disturbing. IF Tim Clausen’s statement about numerous owners and sponsors salivating to get involved is true, I don’t think the same can be said about non-winged sprint cars even in anyone’s wildest fantasies.

Originally Posted by WingedFan2019:
i went to that event and if i remember correctly, Tyler Courtney and Robert Ballou were half the track infront of 3rd place and lapped up to 8th place. Just take the 2 biggest wing/non-wing events and compare. in non wing you have 7, 8 drivers that have a real chance of winning. Bacon, Grant, Windom Leary, KTJ, T-Mez Ballou and Cummins. Whereas if the best Winged drivers all race with eachother There's 15 i can name that stand a chance of winning. Winged racing definitely has higher quality drivers thus adding to the reason why Winged Racing is better overall.

I mean this with all respect but you obviously don’t follow non wing. You left out Darland, Chase Stockon, Shane Cottle, Jake Swanson, AJ Hopkins, J-Mac, Brady Short, Carson Short, Matt Westfall, Scotty Weir, Brent Beauchamp, Shane Cockrum, Stevie Sussex and others i’m sure i’ve missed. Wouldn’t sleep on newcomer to 410’s, Emerson Axsom, either

Smackdown 10 rolls off next week and i’d be willing to bet there will be 25+ drivers entered who are either a former track/series champion or have won multiple features in the last two years.

Sprint cars are awesome and yes, wing racing has a ton of studs as well. Both disciplines have teams that come and go. Admitting my own bias for non wing racing, i just find the notion of wing racing being a bit of a golden goose preposterous. True, nobody in this thread called it a “golden goose” but it is being implied over and over again that there’s no reason financially to run non wing.

Think this was done at the first Let’s Race Two event. Not 100 on that though.

https://youtu.be/Wh8Rd2T90mk

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Again living in winged car country I have noticed they don't like water. It's common for the tracks to take rubber and that is what they seam to prefer. If that happens at a non wing race the crowd is ready to hang the promoter, At a winged car race the majority of the fans only talk about how awesomely fast the cars were and wipe the layer of dust off their vehicles and smile all the way home.
That seems to be something the winged car fans have in common with the NASCAR, Modified, and late model fans. They don't car if the race is single file. A lot of fans don't seem to care if there is actually any racing going on. (although they do get excited when someone "moves" a car with the bumper is seems)
I went to a USMTS race a couple of years ago and the leaders caught the lappers with 8 laps and just followed them to the finish scared to get out of the rubber and get freight trained. Sitting at turn 4 you couldn't see the cars in turn 1 and most of 2 for the dust. Going to the car all you heard was how awesome that race was.

Don’t call Jac exclusively a winger. He ran both effectively

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by flagboy55:
Don’t call Jac exclusively a winger. He ran both effectively

Yup, seen him run NW many times and I think still the highest single purse winner in sprint cars ever at 200k at the Mopar Million. And who came from fifteenth to lead a third of that race eventually finishing third two two guys who race three or four times a week... Dickie Gaines A guy who's father I paid respects to tonight at the Burg. DIckie had car problems and couldn't run.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Random thoughts. Sprint cars are never going to seriously compete with the money that comes with the billboards on the sides of winged cars. There are a significant number of fans who start out watching WoO and eventually get bored with never lifting HP races, dry slick tracks and freight train racing. Some like me are fortunate enough to live a couple hours away from Tri State, THAT, LPS, Springfield and DuQuoin and can get exposed to sprint cars and the historic Big Cars. In my case once I saw those sprint guys struggling to keep four wheels on the ground compared to the winged cars I was hooked.

Promotion is the key and USAC just isn't there yet. Look at the signage after a race, and the posters they put out before a race. It is hard to see where they put "USAC"! This brand just is not being properly managed. And I realize the promoters have to be involved better as well, even though they are already bearing 99% of the risk in putting on a race. I don't pretend to have the answer. But there are more ways to promote the sport. Heck, pay Larson to come sign autographs. Put more ads on facebook and twitter. Go see how the Helfrichs draw good crowds most races. Everybody probably has an idea of something they would like to see done better. God bless USA and pray for the hostages in Afghanistan.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Every time I go to races in Indiana (which is becoming rare since I started taking care of Mom) I meet guys who drive from Pennsylvania Wing Country cause they prefer non wing....:23:

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by revjimk:
Every time I go to races in Indiana (which is becoming rare since I started taking care of Mom) I meet guys who drive from Pennsylvania Wing Country cause they prefer non wing....:23:

TRUE. I will be meeting up with my Posse Pals this week in Kokomo. They love the non wing racing over the admittedly high quality wings in PA.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by Will Shunk:
TRUE. I will be meeting up with my Posse Pals this week in Kokomo. They love the non wing racing over the admittedly high quality wings in PA.

We may have met a few years back. I always try to talk to guys with Pa. plates. Where do you usually stay? :6:

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
Yup, seen him run NW many times and I think still the highest single purse winner in sprint cars ever at 200k at the Mopar Million. And who came from fifteenth to lead a third of that race eventually finishing third two two guys who race three or four times a week... Dickie Gaines A guy who's father I paid respects to tonight at the Burg. DIckie had car problems and couldn't run.

Not so sure I would promote that as a victory for Dickie vs. "these guys" that race three and four times a week. Dickie was racing about every weekend and was traveling at the time in his career and winning and won at Osky in that time frame. Dickie's career was largely non wing with the exception of when he first started and he ran some wing stuff.

Just be glad Quaker State wouldn't release Steve from the WoO show in NE that weekend or this conversation gets more slanted.

Stevie Smith had never driven a non wing car till that weekend. Steve Smith actually called people up to understand how to set up the car because they had no idea how to set it up. There is a reason some of these guys are professional racers.

In regards to Jac, he's old school. He started without the wing much like all his peers in his age group. You can't say Steve, Sammy or Wolf are exclusively wing because they started without. The one thing they all did was make sure they got paid to be a professional sprint car driver and followed the money, which is exactly the epitome of this post.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Spot on all you hear is how fast. I go to the races to watch passing. Their format of fast cars up front really sucks I won't pay $30 to $40 to watch that.
Living in Wisconsin means I have to travel 6 to 8 hour for a good nonwing show. I do that a few times a year and have my ticket for Huset's

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by cornerthree:
Spot on all you hear is how fast. I go to the races to watch passing. Their format of fast cars up front really sucks I won't pay $30 to $40 to watch that.
Living in Wisconsin means I have to travel 6 to 8 hour for a good nonwing show. I do that a few times a year and have my ticket for Huset's

I know everyone see's everything different, even picking apart racing into a million little pieces... "I HAVE TO SEE PASSING, OR I"M NOT GOING BACK!" or I HATE WINGS ,IT DOESNT TAKE ANY TALENT TO DRIVE THOSE THINGS" or "IT WAS TOO DUSTY" or "IF I DIDNT SEE HIM RUN AT KOKOMO HE ISNT A REAL DRIVER".... Really people? Are we son spoiled that if we dont see EXACTLY what we want at a race we are miffed beyond repair? What about just enjoying being at the track and watching the fastest guys hustle it around and win? Hey sometimes the fast guys stink up the show but who cares? Lets be a little more realistic, do you really want someone to MANUFACTURE close racing? That what NASCAR tries to do and not too many people are happy with them!!!
Besides if you aren't a hardcore race fan(Someone that finds other things to watch if the battle isn't for the lead, among other things) you can always get out your phone and doodle a bit if you get too BORED if the race isn't going exactly like you want it to...:14::14::14:

I’ve owned, drove & paid for my own cars for 20 years. I started out non wing but after a couple years I figured out wings were a better choice for me. I like it all but it’s wings for me even as a spectator

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
Name me the exclusively Winged drivers excelling at any other type of motorsports?

I'll wait.

They don’t have to nor do they have the time. They can run for good money upwards of 100 times per year. Even the Ohio cars can run 50-70 and depending on where they live not travel more than 100 miles.
And another thing most of them them don’t have aspirations of making it to the big stage, they are passionate about where they’re at. I’m not saying at all that the NW guys aren’t passionate but if you think it’s the same I’d disagree. I’ve been on both sides.

Originally Posted by flagboy55:
Don’t call Jac exclusively a winger. He ran both effectively

You are proving my earlier point. The second a guy races without a wing he is no longer "exclusively" a wing racer, so the wing crowd cannot claim him as one of their own. That guarantees the win for the "exclusively wing racers never do well in anything else" faction. That statement precludes any other outcome, by definition.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by oldfan49:
Again living in winged car country I have noticed they don't like water. It's common for the tracks to take rubber and that is what they seam to prefer. If that happens at a non wing race the crowd is ready to hang the promoter, At a winged car race the majority of the fans only talk about how awesomely fast the cars were and wipe the layer of dust off their vehicles and smile all the way home.
That seems to be something the winged car fans have in common with the NASCAR, Modified, and late model fans. They don't car if the race is single file. A lot of fans don't seem to care if there is actually any racing going on. (although they do get excited when someone "moves" a car with the bumper is seems)
I went to a USMTS race a couple of years ago and the leaders caught the lappers with 8 laps and just followed them to the finish scared to get out of the rubber and get freight trained. Sitting at turn 4 you couldn't see the cars in turn 1 and most of 2 for the dust. Going to the car all you heard was how awesome that race was.

Every race seems to have a few fans that are there for the noise. In my observation WoO has more of these than USAC.

Also, to some people (me) lap times matter. A few years back I went to New Smyrna, FL for a weekly show. They had a sportsman class and Super late models. The SLM were about 2 seconds faster, but there were only 4 of them. I was more entertained by 4 slm racing in 2 groups of 2 than I was by 24 sportsman running close together. Don't ask me why, but I just prefer higher speed racing. Yes, I prefer wings, no I don't run around telling people that NW sucks, unlike Non Wing fans who like to bash wing racing.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by Puppy:
I know everyone see's everything different, even picking apart racing into a million little pieces... "I HAVE TO SEE PASSING, OR I"M NOT GOING BACK!" or I HATE WINGS ,IT DOESNT TAKE ANY TALENT TO DRIVE THOSE THINGS" or "IT WAS TOO DUSTY" or "IF I DIDNT SEE HIM RUN AT KOKOMO HE ISNT A REAL DRIVER".... Really people? Are we son spoiled that if we dont see EXACTLY what we want at a race we are miffed beyond repair? What about just enjoying being at the track and watching the fastest guys hustle it around and win? Hey sometimes the fast guys stink up the show but who cares? Lets be a little more realistic, do you really want someone to MANUFACTURE close racing? That what NASCAR tries to do and not too many people are happy with them!!!
Besides if you aren't a hardcore race fan(Someone that finds other things to watch if the battle isn't for the lead, among other things) you can always get out your phone and doodle a bit if you get too BORED if the race isn't going exactly like you want it to...:14::14::14:

I like 'em both, live a lot closer to wing racing, but prefer wingless, try to attend all the USAC Pennsyltucky tours. I don't know if people are dissing wings here, maybe a few Hoosier purists.... you guys don't know how good you have it! :31:

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by Rhody:
You are proving my earlier point. The second a guy races without a wing he is no longer "exclusively" a wing racer, so the wing crowd cannot claim him as one of their own. That guarantees the win for the "exclusively wing racers never do well in anything else" faction. That statement precludes any other outcome, by definition.

Beat me to it.... just like on Hoseheads, some people diss the Pa.Posse cause they "don't leave the porch"... soon as they leave, they're "not Posse".... can't win
"Durned if I do & danged if I don't"... somebody needs to write a country song about it... ;)

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by motorhead748:
They don’t have to nor do they have the time. They can run for good money upwards of 100 times per year. Even the Ohio cars can run 50-70 and depending on where they live not travel more than 100 miles.
And another thing most of them them don’t have aspirations of making it to the big stage, they are passionate about where they’re at. I’m not saying at all that the NW guys aren’t passionate but if you think it’s the same I’d disagree. I’ve been on both sides.

Exactly the answer I come up with. But better said.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

I would guess one advantage of running USAC would be that they get to sleep in their own bed a lot more the WoO guys do. not to mention a lot less traveling costs.

As for the "just be glad you are at a racetrack even if the racing sucks" crowd. I grew up going home sleeping in truck pulling a super mod 4 or 5 nights a week I used to be in that crowd and I hunted for a race to go to every night there was one no matter what. . Then I woke up and asked why if the racing wasn't enjoyable.

I live in Kansas City on the Kansas side, as I type this I am sitting in a Hotel in Kokomo. I attend more races in Indiana in a year than I do in Kansas and Missouri for the simple fact the quality of the racing is that much better and even with the travel it is a better bang for the buck.

Some of you really underappreciate what you have in your own back yard.

"You all really underappreciate what you have in your own back yard."

Interesting statement you made,maybe one shouldn't be so quick to pass judgment on "we"all.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by Dirtfan:
"

Interesting statement you made,maybe one shouldn't be so quick to pass judgment on "we"all.

Better?

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Personally I prefer watching and driving non wing way more then winged. Although driving part is only a mini sprint. I don't have big problems with winged racing, just don't prefer it. This is coming from someone that grew up always watching winged racing in Ohio.
We never really went to any non wing races until after I was already started racing in about 2012-2013 at Waynesfield. Started seeing a lot of non wing races at Waynesfield and enjoyed it a lot more.

Mini sprints is what I race/d and non wing was always weird to most and most was against it. So I started and ran mostly winged racing.
A year or 2 later a race got canceled and we took our mini sprint to Montpelier to race with the full midgets, late 2014 i think. Only thing we did different was took the wings off, we kept winged setup on winged gearing etc... For the first few laps I was a giant squirrel, started figuring it out and was putting really good laps and times down. In the Heat I was running 2-3 wide with people and running the last transfer spot. Coming to the checkered flag, out of 4 I tried to drive it like a winged car and expected the car to hold the corner. I was wrong went full speed into the wall out of 4. Luckily i hit the brakes enough to turn the car sideways. Destroyed rear end engine etc...

After that day though, I never wanted to run a winged race again. Only did after that, because it was close. We've traveled 400-500 miles round trip to race Non wing due to that. Even down to South Carolina. It'd be very rare for me to travel that much for a winged race. Last time I actually ran a winged race was now 2019.
It took me 5 years of racing mini sprints, to finally have my first flip. It was non wing and I yard saled it out of, funny enough Montpelier. Going off of pictures and google maps I estimated it to be about 400-430ft. Knocked out, messed my back and knees up, some memory loss and there was nothing left of the car. Only thing good was seat, steering box and the rear rims. This was 3 years ago now and still feels like it was yesterday, still prefer non wing though.

People would say I was weird, but i'd rather run a non wing sprint car locally and work a normal job. Than to race a winged car for a living. I'd rather do something I enjoy more and get paid less, than to do something that i'm not a big fan of and get paid more.

On display last night was an example that proves wingless is better. I missed the first heat at the Bob Darland Memorial but saw the rest of the program, until a storm came through and knocked out power. On the TV next to it I had the Outlaws on from Red River. I’ve said this to people on here that don’t care for wings before. The heat races usually suck for wings but the features are many times just as good if not better sometimes. Last night I might have seen one pass in the Outlaws heats where as Kokomo they were racing side by side and passing. I go to see a whole show not just the feature. As I said both types of features can be great but heats with wings, especially with the Outlaws where they start straight up, are not much different than hotlaps

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by JarrettFarms73:
Out of curiosity, how much are a set of wings? What’s the cost to paint/ wrap the car with and without a wing?

You can get a set of wings for as little as $800 I bet and can spend upwards of $1500. I know one guy paid $1100 to wrap his car and wings two years ago.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Was I the only one a little surprised that only 26 car were at Grandview All Stars last night? All Stars had 5 of the top 6 finishers. Through in PPM as an outsider, and I believe that makes 6 out of the top 7.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Only 17 410 wing cars at Attica. They still had a last lap finish. The Outlaws and All Stars are very strong, but on a local level wings are not growing.

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Looks like 38 with the All Stars at Lincoln tonight

Re: Wing vs. Non-Wing
 

Originally Posted by BrentTFunk:
Looks like 38 with the All Stars at Lincoln tonight

Port Royal is running Lucas Lates

18 winged 410s at Selinsgrove tonight for $5000 to win.

Another point I was going to make about the fact that wingless is better was it takes longer for them to get to lapped traffic. Then I realized that lapped traffic improves the winged product. So I guess my point is moot.