Re: D2
 

Well as a long time attendee at angell park we both know there is no cushion there to speak about. It appears to me to be semi dry slick and a total momentum type race with no obvious acceleration off the corners.
That being said , I do applaud Badgers efforts to keep midget racing alive at APS. The thing I don't get is why all the 20 lap features ? Is it to save on wear and tear or why exactly ?

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by Wayne Davis:
2. All engines must use an original manufacturer’s OEM engine block, OEM cylinder head and OEM crankshaft. Engine blocks, cylinder heads and crankshafts must be from the same OEM manufacturer.

Does this mean it has to match block to head to crank as it came from manufacture 2.4/2.4/2.4 or as long as it is OEM GM...OEM Ford ect.... as in a 2.4 block Ecotec with a 2.2 Ecotec head with a 2.0 Ecotec crankshaft...all GM buy 3 different engines? please clarify

Wayne, first thank you for asking. I know we haven't always agreed on things and I appreciate your question.

The short answer is no. The block, head and crank do not have to match (my engines do match in case anyone is wondering) but they don't have to. As long as it is OEM Chevy to OEM Chevy it would be legal. On the Chevy Ecotec specifically it actually saves money to use the 2.2 head over the 2.4 head because no mods are necessary, it elminates the VVT and there are more cam options for the 2.2 head. We have found that you DO NOT have to buy three different complete engines to get this. You can buy a head by itself, a block by itself and a crank by itself and still spend the same amount as if you bought a complete engine. Using a 2.0 crank in a Chevy Ecotec would be detrimental because you are likely not able to get to a competitive cubic inch limit using that crank.

If you put a 2.0 Ecotec crank in a 2.4 block you would only have an engine with 127.68 cubic inches for example.

One thing to understand about these OEM engines. They (Ford, Chevy, Honda, Chrysler etc) purposely use many of the same components from engine to engine. That is GREAT for the racers who want to use those components because it means there is more available long term.

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by leftrear:
Well as a long time attendee at angell park we both know there is no cushion there to speak about. It appears to me to be semi dry slick and a total momentum type race with no obvious acceleration off the corners.
That being said , I do applaud Badgers efforts to keep midget racing alive at APS. The thing I don't get is why all the 20 lap features ? Is it to save on wear and tear or why exactly ?

The feature laps are determined by what the promoter will allow. If you are concerned with that contact the promoter.

Originally Posted by leftrear:
Well as a long time attendee at angell park we both know there is no cushion there to speak about. It appears to me to be semi dry slick and a total momentum type race with no obvious acceleration off the corners.

This is where I see the issue as well. We all know that if there was a cushion they were running off of, it would look like the engine was stumbling until they got back to speed. I don't know that there is an answer to that without allowing either extra cubic inches or some porting of heads. Maybe those things wouldn't do it either and who knows if the extra expense would make it cost prohibitive. I understand you can't have all the power and torque you want without the expense associated, but the gap is still too noticeable for me and many others to just ignore or accept as the new normal.

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by Midget98:
This is where I see the issue as well. We all know that if there was a cushion they were running off of, it would look like the engine was stumbling until they got back to speed. I don't know that there is an answer to that without allowing either extra cubic inches or some porting of heads. Maybe those things wouldn't do it either and who knows if the extra expense would make it cost prohibitive. I understand you can't have all the power and torque you want without the expense associated, but the gap is still too noticeable for me and many others to just ignore or accept as the new normal.

Leftrear, thank you for taking the time to make your first post on IOW. Always great to see fans of the Badger Midgets supporting the series. Midget98, I guess this is where we have to agree to disagree but know that I value your opinion. Please send me a PM with your name and phone number. I would love to chat more about this with you over the phone some time.

For the record for everyone, Scott Hatton set a new 20 lap track record in 2017 at Angell Park Speedway using a Badger Honda. He bested a mark set by a Fontana engine driven by Bill Balog from 2015.

Re: D2
 

That's the thing that record was set in 2015 and the reason is they have not run 20 lap features at APS for ages until the new engine program came out. Scott Hatton is also one of the best ever to run APS and probably has more laps there than just about anyone. I was curious if this was just a reliability thing at first but it is still 20 lappers so what is the reason lol ?

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by Ray3:
Wayne, first thank you for asking. I know we haven't always agreed on things and I appreciate your question.

The short answer is no. The block, head and crank do not have to match (my engines do match in case anyone is wondering) but they don't have to. As long as it is OEM Chevy to OEM Chevy it would be legal. On the Chevy Ecotec specifically it actually saves money to use the 2.2 head over the 2.4 head because no mods are necessary, it elminates the VVT and there are more cam options for the 2.2 head. We have found that you DO NOT have to buy three different complete engines to get this. You can buy a head by itself, a block by itself and a crank by itself and still spend the same amount as if you bought a complete engine. Using a 2.0 crank in a Chevy Ecotec would be detrimental because you are likely not able to get to a competitive cubic inch limit using that crank.

If you put a 2.0 Ecotec crank in a 2.4 block you would only have an engine with 127.68 cubic inches for example.

One thing to understand about these OEM engines. They (Ford, Chevy, Honda, Chrysler etc) purposely use many of the same components from engine to engine. That is GREAT for the racers who want to use those components because it means there is more available long term.

Thanks for clarifying ....yes I know that about to 2.0 crankshaft...was just using it as an example...thanks again

Re: D2
 

Here is a chart showing the different piston sizes, stroke and cubic inches for the various production engines being used in Badger style Midget competition. I show this because it tells you why you can't just say "stock" for engine size. You can see that the max of 148.82 CID was chosen to make sure the Chevy guys got as much time out of their block as the other engines. It wouldn't be fair to make the Chevy guys buy a new block every season just because they had to run a hone through the cylinders. Also, with these engines it is a lot easier to sleeve one down than it is to make it bigger due to the bore spacing of the engines. Just trying to show more information and help people understand where and why the rules are as they are.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/f...b52c9~mv2.webp

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by leftrear:
That's the thing that record was set in 2015 and the reason is they have not run 20 lap features at APS for ages until the new engine program came out. Scott Hatton is also one of the best ever to run APS and probably has more laps there than just about anyone. I was curious if this was just a reliability thing at first but it is still 20 lappers so what is the reason lol ?

We have run 25 and 30 lap features at Burlington and Spoon River which are both 3/8 with no issues, so it's not a reliability thing.

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by dirt40:
We have run 25 and 30 lap features at Burlington and Spoon River which are both 3/8 with no issues, so it's not a reliability thing.

He is referring to Badger races not D2 races. Not the same thing. Let me reiterate, NOT THE SAME. Even POWRI D2 isn't D2 anymore.

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by leftrear:
That's the thing that record was set in 2015 and the reason is they have not run 20 lap features at APS for ages until the new engine program came out. Scott Hatton is also one of the best ever to run APS and probably has more laps there than just about anyone. I was curious if this was just a reliability thing at first but it is still 20 lappers so what is the reason lol ?

No reliability issues with Badger engines. It all falls with the promoter. Contact the promoter if you want to see more laps from Badger. As for the record, it was set by a Fontana and beat by a Badger Honda. The Badger engine lap times and competitiveness against the POWRI cars during the Pepsi Nationals spoke loud and clear. Badger cars won the first heat and finished second in the second heat and ran competitively in the feature turning the 5th and 11th best laps of the race.

Originally Posted by Ray3:
He is referring to Badger races not D2 races. Not the same thing. Let me reiterate, NOT THE SAME. Even POWRI D2 isn't D2 anymore.

Not D2... More like D1.5

Ray I have a lot of respect for what you are doing.

Is there anywhere in the WORLD other than APS and BADGER that run 20 lap MIDGET A MAINS ?

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by leftrear:
Ray I have a lot of respect for what you are doing.

Is there anywhere in the WORLD other than APS and BADGER that run 20 lap MIDGET A MAINS ?

IMRA typically runs 20 lap features.

As was said earlier, no one from Badger dictates the feature lengths at APS.

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by leftrear:
Ray I have a lot of respect for what you are doing.

Is there anywhere in the WORLD other than APS and BADGER that run 20 lap MIDGET A MAINS ?

Badger runs 25 lap features at all tracks other than Angell Park. If you have an issue with laps at Angell Park contact either the promoter (Kenny Brown) or the Angell Park board of directors. Thats all I can tell you to do.

and for the record, USAC Western States has run 20 lap features at certain tracks and I've personally been to 360 Sprint Car races where the feature was less than 20 laps.

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by Midget98:
Not D2... More like D1.5

Lets just say Badger Midgets, just as it was when Badger didn't allow the Offy engines to compete with them.

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by Ray3:
He is referring to Badger races not D2 races. Not the same thing. Let me reiterate, NOT THE SAME. Even POWRI D2 isn't D2 anymore.

So...if they are "not the same thing" does that mean you are no longer welcoming the cars from the "Burlington and Spoon River" area??? I may not be a very smart man, but the way I read your statement (in an apparent haste to separate from the other forms of midget racing), it implies that anyone withOUT a "Badger motor" would not be able to run...

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by jdull99:
So...if they are "not the same thing" does that mean you are no longer welcoming the cars from the "Burlington and Spoon River" area??? I may not be a very smart man, but the way I read your statement (in an apparent haste to separate from the other forms of midget racing), it implies that anyone withOUT a "Badger motor" would not be able to run...

All engines that are legal in Badger are obviously welcome to compete. It is as simple as that and I would appreciate you trying not to make it more than that.

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by Ray3:
All engines that are legal in Badger are obviously welcome to compete. It is as simple as that and I would appreciate you trying not to make it more than that.

We understand Badger is not D-2 but POWRi says they are .... http://www.powri.com/downloads/get.aspx?i=424443 .... Badger and POWRi engines are not D-2 and are not allowed in the true D-2 series form... you might want to get this clarified .... http://www.powri.com/downloads/get.aspx?i=424447 ...

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by Wayne Davis:
We understand Badger is not D-2 but POWRi says they are .... http://www.powri.com/downloads/get.aspx?i=424443 .... Badger and POWRi engines are not D-2 and are not allowed in the true D-2 series form... you might want to get this clarified .... http://www.powri.com/downloads/get.aspx?i=424447 ...

Thank you Wayne! Coming from the guy who coined the term "D2 Midgets" I think this clears it up well. I appreciate it.

Re: D2
 

Originally Posted by Ray3:
All engines that are legal in Badger are obviously welcome to compete. It is as simple as that and I would appreciate you trying not to make it more than that.

ok...your capital letters and reiteration was confusing.