If anyone knows of an open seat for the BOSS show please PM me.

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Originally Posted by PatrickMead#13:
Pick and pull motors might work too. Turn up the fuel pressure, throw some e85 in the tank, and focus on setup and driving. Around here, an ecotec can be had for $189 with injection. Doesn't get any cheaper than that...... Just a thought open for discussion. ��

Not being a smart ass it is a serious question: Where is "around here" that an ecotec can be had for that price? Very curious? Thanks

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Crankin

We call the place "PULL A PART". may go by a different where you live but the big deal in Junk Yards now days is turn the customer loose in your yard and hope they don't kill themselves.

If that motor ain't no good bring it back and take another one out, refunds in trade only.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Well

UPS delivered me a head yesterday. My first $100.00 investment into my project. We took it up to AJ's last night, and after working on his hot tub a little got the dirty junk yard head on the flow bench for a preliminary test. I think the numbers kinda of surprised him a little, with dirty valve head and stock porting we got pretty close to the Esslinger numbers on his older heads.

Now we have to fabricate up some fixtures to mount it to the flow bench properly, take it apart and clean thing up a tad and see what turns up.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Originally Posted by Crankin:
Not being a smart ass it is a serious question: Where is "around here" that an ecotec can be had for that price? Very curious? Thanks

One of the late model yards in Ohio.

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Speaking as one of the “Old Guys” on this thread, there is one common theme I hope everyone realizes “Passion”. We all have a strong passion for this sport even though some of us are about at the end of our driving days (like me); some are pass it, some are tinkers-thinkers, and some are just starting out, one thing you need is ‘Passion”

Whether it’s the Montpelier group, headed by Harold, Brian and crew or the guys and gals that have made the effort to support it with their new/old midget/mini sprints, the Liguori’s, Greg, Jim, Dad, Ken Patrick, and the many others who have viewed this thread; they have shown their “Passion”. We want racing to survive whether we are directly involved or not.

What wasn’t cheaper back in the day? How many divisions of cars didn’t exist 25-30 years ago? Most cars were home built in there house garage. Get out the old cutting torch, buzz box, some of your closest friends, an old mid 30-40 coupe or sedan and you had the old hardtop or Jalopy division that at the time was the average man’s alternative to the very popular midgets.

Back when I was a kid Hardtops & Supers were King. You also had auto shop, metal shop, and machine shop classes in schools. Working on your street car at you house was a necessity. A lot of places these days your neighbors won’t tolerate you having welders, a set of cutting torches, or any machinery, let alone work on cars out of your garage…sad but true. I know it happened to us back in the mid-80’s in California. I used to build our stock cars from the ground up… till a neighbor complained to the city it was unbecoming to the neighborhood. Hello sprint cars and open wheel racing!

Most folks these days sadly don’t have the luxury or know how to build their own cars from the ground up. Whether we like it or not, we are now a plug and play society. Most folks that want to race are babes in the woods and with that comes some of the businesses that persuade them bigger is better, more cost is more speed, and 6 months later they are broke and out of racing. The sport dies a little more.

Ken, back when he was on the BCRA board out in California helped make a difference. Some older cars started showing up and car counts actually increased by 8-10 cars within 2 seasons. The mission then was to just get cars to the track just as Montpelier has. Sadly after Ken and another key board member left the BCRA board, the old self-serving group reappeared and Bay Cities midget have never been the same.

I see Johnny Murdock is starting a group called BAM (Budget American Midget) series, plus the IMRA (Illinois Midget Racing Association), both have rules more in line with what Dad has voiced here and Jim actually ran with the IMRA group as he has stated. These groups are really just getting stated on their rules package but who knows, within 5 years this could be the norm as far as local midget racing. The best thing is they are all welcomed at Montpelier.

Anyway when all’s said and done constructive dialog is always good for the sport especially when it’s done out of “Passion” Maybe some of us will be able to talk up at Montpelier soon. Hopefully the rest of us can get together maybe sometime during the off season.

Don O’Keefe Jr.
Midget 0k, 8ok

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Ken, back when he was on the BCRA board out in California helped make a difference. Some older cars started showing up and car counts actually increased by 8-10 cars within 2 seasons. The mission then was to just get cars to the track just as Montpelier has. Sadly after Ken and another key board member left the BCRA board, the old self-serving group reappeared and Bay Cities midget have never been the same.

I see Johnny Murdock is starting a group called BAM (Budget American Midget) series, plus the IMRA (Illinois Midget Racing Association), both have rules more in line with what Dad has voiced here and Jim actually ran with the IMRA group as he has stated. These groups are really just getting stated on their rules package but who knows, within 5 years this could be the norm as far as local midget racing. The best thing is they are all welcomed at Montpelier.

Don O’Keefe Jr.


Don I used to be one of them non productive shop teachers, that were considered to be something like throw backs to the industrial revolution. The people in charge of educating our children considered the shop teacher obsolete. Sooo now when a light bulb burns out people have to call for a qualified electrician to change it for them. Dirty hands hands are considered not cool>>>so now my guys wear plastic gloves????

That first paragraph sure says a lot. Have you ever been associated with a group that was run by a bunch of self serving so and so's, that played ******** with one another to get their agenda approved by sacrificing someones else's wishes. If a racer is not in the "cliche:" he feels that his chances of success to be hopeless. I have seen this happen several times in my lifetime, with several very successful racing groups. Could this be a problem with Midget racing today???

Fortunately this will not happen at Montpelier. Why you ask? Well because Montpelier is controlled by a "Benevolent Dictator". This old dictator may talk with many of his subjects and listen to their concerns. He will then go back and make or not make rules as needed to keep the club prosperous, because it is important to him to have a prosperous organization (He likes to eat). He should not have any skin in the game in the form of racers, his only concern should be for the final product. The old back biting may still go on but as long as the dictator is in control and the racers don't perceive him as playing favorites he will succeed. He doesn't need to liked by all the racers nor does he need to be disliked by all the racers all he has to do is for all the racers to feel like that he is treating them all the same way.

The person that says a "DICTATOR" is a bad person has never been involved in racing. I can remember one promoter that would get on the drivers radio's and announce "You guys ain't at Burger King, and you ain't going to have it your way!!!" He was respected.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Dad,...... DICTATOR......You have no idea how many times Don and I have broached that very subject. We all have seen many clubs that have fallen from grace because people put their own agenda ahead of the group. Bottom line is what's best for the group is what's best for me.......Every time!! There may be a decision that comes down that I am not happy with now and then but as long as it serves the group well, it's ok. Case in point: At the end of the 2002 season I plunked down 35K for two Edmunds/Esslinger Midgets. One Pavement and one Dirt, they were the '02 usac w/s championship cars. The season was a disaster. First race was a BCRA/usac Co-Sanction at Stockton March 29, 2003. While standing in line to go in ,the phone rang with the news that Mom had passed away during the night. We didn't race, going home with broken hearts. Parents, Pets, lovers and friends, life is full of loss...... Two weeks later on to Madera for another CoSanc. In the aftermath, I forgot to charge the Battery and made 1 lap in the 100 lapper. Two weeks later, on to Eureka and we were ready to go. I was leading the feature when a rookie I was lapping took me out, badly damaging the car. I went from a $1500 winner to a $4500 loser and it knocked me out of the sport. But BCRA was strong then and although I had to separate my equipment I got more than I paid for it, breaking even after repairs to the car. My time on the Board showed me that most racers thought process stops at their front bumper. This is why Montpelier will continue to grow. It is run by people who are looking out for the overall health of the groups. Good luck with your project and please keep us posted on your progress. Take Care.....Ken

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Ken

I have also been associated with a few bad dictators in my lifetime. They are just about as bad or worse than many committee's. Everything we do is seen under someone else's perception. Rules can be seen as favoritism to a special party. I have raced under some very strange rules but when I looked at them I could see that the although they were stupid they affected everybody the same.

From your comments I can tell you have been around the block more than once. Young people are taught in grade school now days that rules and laws are the answer to every problem that exist in this old world. I went to college with a bunch of people that brought this way of thinking to the forefront. My advice to young people starting out is don't just make rules to be making rules. Slow down and ask your self what will so and so think about this, is it really needed, what is the real reason for this rule, it may not really be the stated reason.

I wish that race tracks would make rules today to prevent drivers from making their feelings known to other racers on the race track during a race. We call that 20/20 hind site.

I got a motor today and am going over to Tony's to see if he has a messed up motor plate to see if it fits and is light enough for him, who knows. The reason I posed this question on IOW was Montpelier is a pretty good haul and I didn't want to be perceived as trying to skirt the rules, and just maybe some other bright younger than me back yard racer might pick up on the Idea.

Here is the kicker>>>> as of last year because of the EPA Ford is phasing out these motors in favor of little turbocharged 4 cylinder motors with direct injection and a lot of boost. That means somebody is going to have to figure out how to close the throttle plate under all that boost at the end of the straightway. We will still have a half million or so of these V6's to play with.

Honest Dad himself

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

DAD, a lot of rules are just simply carried over, I can think of several, that have never been even looked at as to their meaning, or how they can be interpreted, just for example, the "no fuel additives" rule we've had pushed in our faces, this I'll have to say, a lot of organizations have added something to it, rather than left it to carry on, a lot have changed it to read, "upper lube permitted", but no power enhancers, and then they go on to list the most common ones. Upper lube is merely an additive to provide some lubricant to the valves and rings, and resist the corrosive nature of alcohol, in other words, to keep costs down, not to raise horse power, I think we all need to read the rules we run under, and take a look at what the bottom line meaning really is, besides, nitro has gotten so expensive, not many can even afford to ask "how much"! Bob

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Bob

I have been using Blendzall 501 for years for the same reason, and it smells better. We don't go as rich as you mixing only 1 pint per 55 gallons, I think you said you mix a quart per 55 gallons.

Your ratio is 240 to 1 or .00417% if you substituted nitro at that percent I still don't see performance enhancing qualities in your fuel.. I don't think they make a hydrometer accurate enough to catch it and probably under a spectrometer analysis it would come up under trace amounts of hydrocarbons.:)

The guy saying you was illegal has probably never done a fuel analysis IN a previous post.

However on a "good nose day" I could probably catch you.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

DAD, I didn't get DQ'd, I was just using the rule as something that never gets even looked at, as far as does it fit what we're doing in this century. Klotz Uplon is not the same as Blendzall, Uplon is not to be used as a substitute for oil mix used in a 2stroke, the ratio I use is more like 2oz in 5 gal, so it's pretty minute, but gets the job done, and it still has that bean oil smell. I have made the mistake of using a maybe more well known product, and spent the whole season, trying to get it out of the system, it clogged up filter after filter, not to mention injector nozzles. BTW, it will show up in the water test, as will a lot of other things! Bob

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Bob

At 240 to 1 a guy would have to have pretty good eyes.;)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

How many PPM is that? Bob

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Bob

I am going to try and get in touch with the "EPA" for a ruling on that. They have the expertise and computing power to get it down to PPM's and maybe even "Moles" if they deem it necessary. My only concern is that they may find that "Top End Lube" to be a "carcinogen" after performing experiments with "Rats" and outlaw it on the spot thus turning it over to "OSHA" for compliance inspections, and that will probably involve the "DOJ" and we all know about them people.;):D

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

are they going to add another midget date for the rainout the other weekend? I hope so, us midget folk dont have anywhere to go....

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Brian, sorry we hijacked your thread, but it did keep it to the top most of the week! You know how us old guys are, history can't be repeated enough! Bob!

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Originally Posted by drob201:
are they going to add another midget date for the rainout the other weekend? I hope so, us midget folk dont have anywhere to go....

We looked around at some dates, but we couldn't find anything that looked to be ideal. We will keep the Midgets pretty busy starting August 30 with a string 4 shows within a 5 week period (September 13, September 20, September 27, and October 11).

We are excited to get back to Midget racing and to get a more consistent flow of Midget racing going.

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Changing the subject we got a little 3.0 litter V6 Ford motor in the other day, and just got it undressed and here is what it looks like at 385 pounds fully dressed just out of the wrecked car.

And later at about 250 pounds with all the street stuff removed and ready to go and try to put in a race car, it looks a little short, guess that is because it is only 3 small cylinders long as opposed to 4 big cylinders long. Wonder if that will move my CG back and put more weight on the rear wheels?


Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
Changing the subject we got a little 3.0 litter V6 Ford motor in the other day, and just got it undressed and here is what it looks like at 385 pounds fully dressed just out of the wrecked car.

And later at about 250 pounds with all the street stuff removed and ready to go and try to put in a race car, it looks a little short, guess that is because it is only 3 small cylinders long as opposed to 4 big cylinders long. Wonder if that will move my CG back and put more weight on the rear wheels?


Honest Dad himself:6::6:

:6: You just might be on to somethin' Are you gonna start with a stocker or do a little tweakin' ?? BTW. whats the stock HP and Torque numbers? As far as CG goes it will change things some. not only front to rear but it looks taller?? This might just be a dry/slick MONSTER.....:9::9: Keep us posted...........Ken

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Ken

Here you go.

Duratec 30
The Ford Duratec 30 Engine in a Mercury Sable.

The 3.0 L Duratec 30 or Mazda AJ was introduced in 1996 as a replacement for the 3.8 L (230 cu in) Essex V6 in the up-market versions of the Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable. It has 2,967 cc (181 cu in) of displacement and produces between 200 hp (150 kW) and 240 hp (180 kW). With an aluminum block and cylinder heads, it is the same basic engine used in the Jaguar S-Type, Lincoln LS, Mazda MPV, Mazda 6, Mondeo ST220 and many other Ford vehicles. It is essentially a bored-out (to 89 mm) Duratec 25 and is built in Ford Motor Company's Cleveland Engine #2 plant in Cleveland, Ohio. A slightly modified version for the Ford Five Hundred entered production at the Cleveland #1 plant in 2004.

There are two key versions of the first-generation Duratec 30:

DAMB - The Lincoln LS and Jaguar AJ30 versions have direct-acting mechanical bucket (DAMB) tappets. Output is 232 hp (173 kW) at 6750 rpm with 220 lb·ft (298 N·m) of torque at 4500 rpm.
RFF - The Taurus/Sable/Escape version uses roller finger followers (RFF) instead and produces 201 hp (150 kW) at 5900 rpm with 207 lb·ft (281 N·m) of torque at 4400 rpm.

Variable Cam Timing

The 2006 Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, and Lincoln Zephyr feature a version of the Duratec 30 using variable valve timing. The engine has an output of 221 hp (165 kW) at 6250 rpm, and 205 lb·ft (278 N·m) of torque at 4800 rpm.

The final major revision of the Duratec 30 was seen on the 2009 Ford Escape and Mercury Mariner small SUVs. Cam-torque-actuated iVCT was introduced in this version along with better breathing heads. The result is a bump from the previous version's 223 bhp (166 kW; 226 PS) to 240 hp (180 kW) at 6550 rpm. The newly refreshed engine made its way into the redesigned Ford Fusion as the optional base V6, and the Mercury Milan as the only V6 for the 2010 model redesign.
Replacement

The 3.0L delivered ample power in the midsize sedan segment, however the Fusion later received the Duratec 35 V6 as a top-tier "Sport" option to remain competitive with larger V6 offerings in the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. The Duratec 30 remained as a step up from the base I4 in the Fusion, but the Milan kept the 3.0L as its sole V6 until it was discontinued for the 2011 model year. The 3.0L Has the potential to deliver more power, but it is believed to be nearing the end of its development; Ford will begin to phase it out in favor of newer engine lines. The Duratec 30 will be dropped as the higher-end powerplant in the 2013 Escape in favor of the 2.0L EcoBoost I4, which produces similar power, more torque, and better fuel economy. As shown in the 2013 Ford Fusion, the Duratec 30 will also be replaced by the EcoBoost 2.0L. It is unlikely that another revision of the engine will appear in any future Ford vehicles, and will be replaced by the EcoBoost 2.0L I4, and Cyclone 35 V6. The original version of the engine without iVCT is available as a crate engine from Ford Power Products, producing 232 bhp (173 kW; 235 PS).
Other applications

A Twin-turbocharged version of this engine is used in the Noble M400, a British sports car. The engine is rebuilt and tuned to a max power of 425 bhp (317 kW) at 6500 rpm, with a torque figure of 390 lb·ft (529 N·m) at 5000 rpm. Noble has used forged pistons, an oil cooler, a larger baffled oil sump and extra cooling ducts to maintain its durability. 29 L/100 km (8.1 mpg-US)

A racing version of this engine exists and is used on mini prototypes like the Juno SS3 V6. It is a 3.0-liter naturally aspirated non variable timing engines producing between 350 and 400 horsepower with a red line of around 8700 rpm. The engine has a 40 hour racing life span before it needs to be rebuilt with rings and bearings, and has proven very reliable and competitive. The engine has a Jaguar badge, and is branded as a Jaguar 3.0-liter V6 since it is built and mostly sold in the U.K

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Dad, Seems like some good base numbers. What are you gonna use for induction? Here's a little true story. Back about 1980 I was racing a Supermodified on the dirt at San Jose. Back then, you could run gas or Alky and I was on gas but needed more. My then Motor Builder the Late Don Canepa took an 850 double Pumper and converted it to run Alky as I couldn't afford injection. It was I'm sure one of the first efforts of that kind and the Motor was an L-T1 350 with about 11:1 Comp. We couldn't get it to run good so I pulled the jets and then, believe it or not both power valves,which turned it in to a toilet, Now we are too rich but Don knew an old school trick. He told me to advance the timing until it ran good. Sure enough it woke that ol' dog up and I became competive at the front of the semi main which is pretty good considering that it was a C race car before. The upshot is that when we checked the timing we found that we had cranked.....55 DEGREES (really) in. That's where I learned that more Fuel and advance = Cheap horsepower. Obviously, If I had more compression the thing would have blown itself apart. Just some food for thought............Ken

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Ken, I've been doing some R&D testing with a couple of ignition builders, and you are correct, more fuel, more advance, one manufacturer I've been working with told me on the bench, he's seen as much as 65 degrees, and still no problems, but this requires a different advance, he has 4 programed in, I am now running in the 45-50 degree range, and the power follows it up, we've not been able to get out much this season, but I think you're right, the old "limits" on advance are being blown away, the one I'm working with now is a mechanical advance, and I have a starter on my motor, I am now at the point where I just advance it till it kicks back a little on the starter, then back it down a degree or 2, so it's in the 45-50 degree range, when the mechanical is all the way advanced, just waiting now for the weather to cut us some slack, and one of my drivers can make time to take a Sat off, but it is there, more then anxious to try it! Bob

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

DAD, I have a 2008 Fusion, SEL, with the 3.0 V6, the 3.5 was available that year also, and I almost opted for it, but didn't. The 3.0 is plenty, and gets better mileage than the 4cyl. It is a nice engine, a stomp on the pedal at a stoplite only produces a lot of tire smoke, but with the 6spd automagic, just ease into it, till it collects 2nd gear, then step on it, it really likes to show off then, it is a really fun car to drive, tilt and telescope, black leather, just sit way back, and enjoy! Bob

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Bob and Ken

These would be conservative manufacture numbers with smog pumps, cat converters stock cast iron manifolds on reg pump gas with a little bitty throttle body. They talked about 400HP race motors and my guess is that they would still be in a pretty mild state of tune compared to a circle track motor.

How many races can you run in 40 hours of track time before you ring and bearing it?? They didn't say anything about valves and springs the week link in to-days Midget Motors. How much over 400 Horse Power would one of these motors need to be competitive against a Modern 50 year old Midget motor built today??

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Bob and Dad, Thought you would appreciate this guy. He's another Mad Scientist and his name is Dan Bernard. He built some really fast motors BITD at San Jose, winning many races including the Johnny Key Memorial (Tony Ringo). He has perfected a system for OHV motors that eliminates rocker arms. It's a machined aluminum block that bolts where the rocker arm used to. There is a small oil pressure driven piston in the block right over the valve that opens it. No pushrods,lifters and I am assuming cam although he wouldn't tell me that but I would see no reason for one.The obvious trick was to get the valve timing right and he spent well over 20 years of his life doing so. With this system, it will be possible to run lifts/ratios that are impossible to do with rocker arms plus of course, far less friction. When I last saw Dan (2010) he had two running engines: an SBC and a Harley Davidson. I saw both of 'em run and with the valve covers off, it was a really strange sight. At that time, he was talking with multiple car mfg's about buying the patent. I'm sure the Cam Grinders won't like this but neither did the Buggy Whip guys like the Automobile. Coming soon to a Theater near you...........

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

Ken

Sounds intriguing. Kinda of hard to believe he can get hydraulics flowing enough volume to open and close them valves at high RPM's. I could envision a spool valves doing the job but just not fast enough. The Formula I guys are using Pneumatic valve springs to achieve their RPM's up close to 20,000 + on their little engines but require some very close machine work to accomplish the deed.

Bob mentions the 3500cc motor that was an option on his car. That is the same engine with a bigger bore. This little engines is designed with a split crankcase with main bearings in both sides of the crankcase (Girdle Design). These motors are also cast with permanent molds, that makes them both strong and light as opposed to the sand castings used on todays "modern" Midget Race Engine. They really should have the potential to make an economical and very competitive stock block Midget Motor.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

i had thought about this idea about 4 or 5 years ago , people thought i was nuts (mainly my son), i was thinking on starting a series with 3.0 or 3.5 but also include all makes ford, hondas , mopar,and chevy , run the v6 as a class and have a 2.5 class with the same specs what mel kenyon had for his midget class .

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

sday

It would be nice to come up with several people interested in building some of these motors. The big deal would be injectors because I don't think any are available now, and it would be a lot cheaper to order 4 or 5 the first order.

The other motors for the most part all use finger type valve lifters like the Esslinger does and to me these things are week links. Yeh I know BMW is using finger followers on their new 1000cc motorcycle motors but we ain't been beat by one of them things yet.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
 

when i started looking into them (3.0 & 3.5) i believe there is a place overseas that has a injection manifold for 3.0 theres also a guy in canada he does a lot the 3.8 and older 3.0 ,but there is another place in the uk that has stuff for the duratecs 2.0 2.3 4 fly and 3.0 v6 but i forget what site it was , i have been wanting to get a pole barn built so i can get some cnc mills and a tig wielder so i can do somethings of my own.