Non-Wingers To The Top

Pine · 12/31/07, 6:45 PM

There's a discussion on another board. Wingers VS. Non-Wingers to Nascar. Why is it that the wing drivers (WoO) can't make it in Nascar but Non-wingers seem to be very sucessful.

1) Is it because the non-wing drivers are so versatile running Sprints, Midgets, Champ Cars, Dirt and Asphalt ??
2) Is it because the winged guys' are so locked down they can't find the edge on asphalt ??
3) Is it because the non-wingers are always on the edge and not locked down with the wing ???
4) Or am I way off base and its' none of the above.

I wondered what some of the USAC fans thought. Don't want an argument just some thoughts. And don't tell me the WoO are content running WoO. Someone posted on the other board Dave Blaney finished 31st and made over 3 million dollars.....:checkered:

Flatrightrear · 12/31/07, 7:15 PM

Pine,
I'll ramble here and not make much sense but it seems like these hot driving 16-20 year olds are all in non-wing cars and are able to grab headlines a lot quicker and get noticed there a lot sooner. What 18 yr. old kid has come in and made big headlines with the WoO's lately?The Outlaw guys are a much more mature group age wise as well. Schatz is young at 30 in that group. Campbell and Henderson are young and have some good runs but they don't win and get headlines like Stenhouse, Ballou and other young guys do in non-wing. Here's another bad idea. Maybe with the non-wing races being so concentrated in the midwest that a driver has a chance to really get looked over by a car owner as he can watch him race A LOT in a summer's time without going around the whole country to do so. Plus, like you said, drivers' can show off their diversity with the different cars and surfaces that they get to drive. That has to be to the drivers' advantage I would think. These are simple thoughts from a simple mind and I am prepared to get blown out of the water by someone more knowledgeable than myself. Have a great 2008, Pine, and I'll let you offer me a drink at Lawrenceburg in July. Tom
Tom

12/31/07, 7:59 PM

Interesting question. Maybee it has to do with so few WOO Drivers trying to break in. I know Sammy(he who must not be named) and Kraig Kinser ran some truck races without much success, but the teams they ran for have not had alot of success period. I dont think Steve Kinser got a fair chance IMO and it was hard to go from King to field filler and wait for you chance with a better team.(he did quit well in his only attempt at the indy 500 with limitead success in IROC). I think at this point you would have to say that Dave Blaney has ben very successful. In the end I think a racer is a racer, if you give them good equitment and its somthing they want it bad enough they would find away. It could also be that with the Woo they make too much money and are comfertable where they are and dont feal that need to move up. Probiby has more to do with how easy Ken Sharder and then Jeff Gordon made the transition for nascar teams to look for talent in usac. I wonder if Jeff Gordon had been horrible if guys like Kenny Irwin or Ryan Newman would have ever got their chance.

Hope you all have a safe and Happy Newyears

Charles Nungester · 12/31/07, 8:01 PM

IMO a great driver is a great driver no matter what he straps into. Kinsers been as successful non winged as winged as have others, Kerr, Huntley, Briscoe, Hewitt

I believe what Dispain said about learning to find the edge and race against each other is the key. Diversity has a lot to do with it but with everything, When you get to the top level the equiptment and team you have around you is often a bigger factor than your driving abilites.

A reverse example is Bill Elliot and Bobby Lebonte and a few others like Schrader who can come down a notch and be competitive.

I know some pure stockers and Mod drivers who'd probably be damn good in a sprinter, OR THE NEXT LEVEL. Bland and others kinda prove this. I even worked on a pure stock team where theres no doubt in my mind he'd of been successful in anything he drove. He could just feel and know how to hook up and keep speed where most others lost it.

Chuck, who thought Gordon's first Brickyard qualifications summed it up perfectly, Totally sideways out of four and still set quick time. 95 percent of anyone exiting that corner sideways eats a wall.

Gasman fan 50 · 1/1/08, 4:45 PM

Well, back in the days,Steve Kinser got a shot in Nascar. We were told at the (Gold Cup) that was where the news was let out, that it was at least a 4 or 5 year deal. Well, it did not end up that way.:angry-smiley-007:

wbr · 1/1/08, 5:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pine

2) Is it because the winged guys' are so locked down they can't find the edge on asphalt ??
3) Is it because the non-wingers are always on the edge and not locked down with the wing ???

I think both of the above, I was talking with a nascar driver at the rumble and he said to be fast in the taxi's, you have to be literally on the edge of spinning out. BUT you have to control it too.
Personally, never drove one- never will. Who really knows?:Steer

tonyj · 1/1/08, 5:20 PM

I think the ultra-stiff chassis that NASCAR now runs, goes hand-in-hand with a non wing car...you gotta drive it by what your butt is telling you.
There is no doubt that a good driver, regardless of what class he runs presently, could "make the cut". But getting that chance to prove it, is the tough part!

Hawker · 1/1/08, 5:30 PM

IMO, it's all about car control.

The nonwing cars are always loose, the driver constantly has to rely on seat of the pants feel and ultra quick reactions with steering input.

HurstBros0 · 1/1/08, 5:42 PM

Maybe they are content at being racers ......... and not HO-ing for the NASCAR establishment ?

Dwight Clock · 1/1/08, 6:04 PM

Hawker is right It is all about car control. The problem lies with how NASCAR team owners offer chances to new drivers. I'm not faulting them, just the process. USAC guys get chances because they have asphalt experience. Team owners figure (correctly) that if they can control an 800 hp sprint car on pavement they can control a heavy NASCAR machine. Gordon, Stewart, Irwin, Kahne, etc. have all proven this. WoO drivers have every bit as much ability but they have little or no pavement experience. That is what hurt Steve Kinser the most when he got his screwing from Kenny Bernstein after No. Wilkesboro in April of '95. No one is a better driver than Kinser yet, when he didn't produce results after just 7 attempts, he was gone. If you look at all the young guys in development deals they all have one thing in common, no matter what series they came from. Pavement experience. With the WoO schedule as busy as it is there is no way that any driver in that series is going to get any significant amount of pavement experience so they are then "locked in" to remain with WoO. Until that changes what you see now is the way it will be for a very long time.

12/31/07, 8:01 PM	#4 Re: Non-Wingers To The Top
Charles Nungester Senior Member Race Count This Year: 6 Race Count Last Year: 14 Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 22,031	IMO a great driver is a great driver no matter what he straps into. Kinsers been as successful non winged as winged as have others, Kerr, Huntley, Briscoe, Hewitt I believe what Dispain said about learning to find the edge and race against each other is the key. Diversity has a lot to do with it but with everything, When you get to the top level the equiptment and team you have around you is often a bigger factor than your driving abilites. A reverse example is Bill Elliot and Bobby Lebonte and a few others like Schrader who can come down a notch and be competitive. I know some pure stockers and Mod drivers who'd probably be damn good in a sprinter, OR THE NEXT LEVEL. Bland and others kinda prove this. I even worked on a pure stock team where theres no doubt in my mind he'd of been successful in anything he drove. He could just feel and know how to hook up and keep speed where most others lost it. Chuck, who thought Gordon's first Brickyard qualifications summed it up perfectly, Totally sideways out of four and still set quick time. 95 percent of anyone exiting that corner sideways eats a wall. __________________ Charles Nungester

12/31/07, 6:45 PM	#1 Non-Wingers To The Top
Pine Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,011	There's a discussion on another board. Wingers VS. Non-Wingers to Nascar. Why is it that the wing drivers (WoO) can't make it in Nascar but Non-wingers seem to be very sucessful. 1) Is it because the non-wing drivers are so versatile running Sprints, Midgets, Champ Cars, Dirt and Asphalt ?? 2) Is it because the winged guys' are so locked down they can't find the edge on asphalt ?? 3) Is it because the non-wingers are always on the edge and not locked down with the wing ??? 4) Or am I way off base and its' none of the above. I wondered what some of the USAC fans thought. Don't want an argument just some thoughts. And don't tell me the WoO are content running WoO. Someone posted on the other board Dave Blaney finished 31st and made over 3 million dollars.....:checkered:

12/31/07, 7:15 PM	#2 Re: Non-Wingers To The Top
Flatrightrear Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,385	Pine, I'll ramble here and not make much sense but it seems like these hot driving 16-20 year olds are all in non-wing cars and are able to grab headlines a lot quicker and get noticed there a lot sooner. What 18 yr. old kid has come in and made big headlines with the WoO's lately?The Outlaw guys are a much more mature group age wise as well. Schatz is young at 30 in that group. Campbell and Henderson are young and have some good runs but they don't win and get headlines like Stenhouse, Ballou and other young guys do in non-wing. Here's another bad idea. Maybe with the non-wing races being so concentrated in the midwest that a driver has a chance to really get looked over by a car owner as he can watch him race A LOT in a summer's time without going around the whole country to do so. Plus, like you said, drivers' can show off their diversity with the different cars and surfaces that they get to drive. That has to be to the drivers' advantage I would think. These are simple thoughts from a simple mind and I am prepared to get blown out of the water by someone more knowledgeable than myself. Have a great 2008, Pine, and I'll let you offer me a drink at Lawrenceburg in July. Tom Tom

12/31/07, 7:59 PM	#3 Re: Non-Wingers To The Top
Dale800 Posts: n/a	Interesting question. Maybee it has to do with so few WOO Drivers trying to break in. I know Sammy(he who must not be named) and Kraig Kinser ran some truck races without much success, but the teams they ran for have not had alot of success period. I dont think Steve Kinser got a fair chance IMO and it was hard to go from King to field filler and wait for you chance with a better team.(he did quit well in his only attempt at the indy 500 with limitead success in IROC). I think at this point you would have to say that Dave Blaney has ben very successful. In the end I think a racer is a racer, if you give them good equitment and its somthing they want it bad enough they would find away. It could also be that with the Woo they make too much money and are comfertable where they are and dont feal that need to move up. Probiby has more to do with how easy Ken Sharder and then Jeff Gordon made the transition for nascar teams to look for talent in usac. I wonder if Jeff Gordon had been horrible if guys like Kenny Irwin or Ryan Newman would have ever got their chance. Hope you all have a safe and Happy Newyears

1/1/08, 4:45 PM	#5 Re: Non-Wingers To The Top
Gasman fan 50 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 461	Well, back in the days,Steve Kinser got a shot in Nascar. We were told at the (Gold Cup) that was where the news was let out, that it was at least a 4 or 5 year deal. Well, it did not end up that way.:angry-smiley-007:

1/1/08, 5:20 PM	#7 Re: Non-Wingers To The Top
tonyj Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 77	I think the ultra-stiff chassis that NASCAR now runs, goes hand-in-hand with a non wing car...you gotta drive it by what your butt is telling you. There is no doubt that a good driver, regardless of what class he runs presently, could "make the cut". But getting that chance to prove it, is the tough part!

1/1/08, 5:30 PM	#8 Re: Non-Wingers To The Top
Hawker Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 349	IMO, it's all about car control. The nonwing cars are always loose, the driver constantly has to rely on seat of the pants feel and ultra quick reactions with steering input.

1/1/08, 5:42 PM	#9 Re: Non-Wingers To The Top
HurstBros0 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 676	Maybe they are content at being racers ......... and not HO-ing for the NASCAR establishment ?

1/1/08, 6:04 PM	#10 Re: Non-Wingers To The Top
Dwight Clock Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,233	Hawker is right It is all about car control. The problem lies with how NASCAR team owners offer chances to new drivers. I'm not faulting them, just the process. USAC guys get chances because they have asphalt experience. Team owners figure (correctly) that if they can control an 800 hp sprint car on pavement they can control a heavy NASCAR machine. Gordon, Stewart, Irwin, Kahne, etc. have all proven this. WoO drivers have every bit as much ability but they have little or no pavement experience. That is what hurt Steve Kinser the most when he got his screwing from Kenny Bernstein after No. Wilkesboro in April of '95. No one is a better driver than Kinser yet, when he didn't produce results after just 7 attempts, he was gone. If you look at all the young guys in development deals they all have one thing in common, no matter what series they came from. Pavement experience. With the WoO schedule as busy as it is there is no way that any driver in that series is going to get any significant amount of pavement experience so they are then "locked in" to remain with WoO. Until that changes what you see now is the way it will be for a very long time.