[Seadog]

Originally Posted by Kirk Spridgeon ...Seadog - that was not me. I think the young drivers in USAC are great, but the guys you need to talk about the most are the Coons, Darland, Hines, Gardner, Kuhn, etc. The younger group will change from year to year, but that is what makes them so well-liked by younger kids. It is cool to see kids like Whitt, Boat, etc. and when/if they ever leave for something else, there will be a new group to replace them....

Sorry about that, Kirk. That's what I get for going by memory and not going back and checking the posts.

[DonRacer]

I think Stadium Racing should be on the list of "what if's"

[Jerry Shaw]

Originally Posted by Tony Barhorst In regard to "losing my head" that day..well...I was not called by the current leaders..and offered any advice on makeup dates for UPSET FANS...any professional entertainment company would have at least had the main guys call with help....Now they have my Thursday Midget Week date...AT A TRACK THAT LEVI JONES LEFT THE BALLPARK THE VERY LAST TIME THERE?...What is safer there NOW? IRONIC!!!

That's a bit of revisionist history, there Tony. Most of the people that were highly upset that day, didn't get that way because of the cancellation. They were infuriated and left mad because of the way you took the microphone and turned on the drivers and race teams that were leaving. I think most knowledgeable fans had a certain degree of skepticism when they drove in and saw a road grader, with grass growing up through the cab, sitting outside of turns 1 and 2. And while driving all the way over there and not getting to see a race does kind of suck, a cancellation for safety reasons (whether you/I/anybody agree with that assessment or not) is one of those things that trumps your desire, as a race fan, to see a race that day. On D.O.'s show early in the week after this, USAC publicly accepted responsibility for their part in this and has moved on. You'll do yourself a huge favor when you can do the same. Maybe you can even win back some of the race fans you lost that day. But that's just my opinion.

Jerry

[Tony Barhorst]

Jerry,

...I am not going to replay that deal....I am still trying to move on..

Poor leadership in regard to pavement racing is the topic here. I have had my say..time for other ideas..otherwise we get distracted from the real problems.

THE PROBLEM is COSTS TO TEAMS

Kevin Miller started this topic...says he wants "town hall meetings"...Well why have they not listened to top teams with ideas? IF YOUR TALKING ABOUT CUTTING THE RACERS COST...FORGET IT.

I happen to be a pavement fan too..I hate to see the leaders of the sport..let it go down the drain.. They have been warned.....

I am just a race fan who promotes racing...Lets see what USAC does next..it will be interesting.

Jerry...I get a kick out of your posts..Spridge...thanks for your observations........Out...

Tony Barhorst

[Charles Nungester]

I've totally stayed out of this thread because basically I don't know many FACTS or ANSWERS

I can put it to you from a fans perspective.

I don't think your ever going to control cost untill all sanctions and tracks can agree. With that being said. Minus the Hauler and shop it still cost a quarter million to run the USAC sprint car schedual (And run up front both dirt and pavement) How many working class racers and car owners can afford that? THE SPONSORS ARE JUMPING SHIP INCLUDING THE BIGGER TEAMS!

Some things there that could be done is Packages with Hotels for group rates to the teams making these long hauls to California, PA, Mich, Maybe with a hotel package discount USAC offers recognition of sponsorship. This could help locallly as well for other teams to join here (Cali teams coming for sprint week ect)

As a fan, I hate all the direct competiton that dilutes shows. Im sorry but yeah, we had some loyal USAC racers at Midget week but Saturday was diluted. Both Powri and Badger and MSCS (Yeah its sprints but some are midget drivers too) Schedualled directly against it. I kinda wish a track that had the long standing schedualed date at the last minute would put up a huge purse to teach the others a lesson. Work together or pay for it!

COOPERATE. The big races of the past brought all the big names, Not just a handful.

Payouts, hum WOO can charge 32 a person and pay 10000 to win USAC chargest (GEnerally 20 and pays 4)
SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE! YOUR PRODUCT IS SUPERIOR!

Sponsors and marketing, I've heard that USAC was going to promote a bit (Can't say that for fact) But unless you stumble onto www.usacracing.com you really don't see nothing except track scheduals and even they don't reflect changes like the Dick Gaines Memorial now being 10g to win.

Race fans know the score, Were blessed with a lot of options and cursed at the same time as many drivers have those same options and THE FAN SUFFERS FOR IT.

Say what you want about Tony Barhorst. The shows I've attended (And even the ones I didn't) I knew about them well in advance (Had flyers under my windshield wipers) He goes out and gets other things like a NASCAR star, A car crusher for kids. He involves kids with his Rumble series (THATS THE FUTURE NO DOUBT) and he promotes in radio markets near the events. (He looses some and makes some) but he tries to PROMOTE THE SPORT AND THE FUTURE OF IT!. He rents tracks and facilities to provide the opertunity for racers to race and fans to enjoy it. Like all promoters. HE takes a chance. Something Im thinking many promoters aren't willing to do anymore.

I welcome all sponsorships but do not think they should have a controling say in the show in any way shape or form

Some of its not all USAC, Many tracks do not count USAC shows to their track championship points. Id at least offer SHOW UP POINTS (50) just for racing at the home track.

Lots of problems, the solutions?

My statements may not be all true. I welcome corrections. I've enjoyed reading through this and some people with hard facts and figures.

Chuck, superfan who just wants the best for racing, I think there is room for a NATIONAL NON WINGED SERIES but its gotta be supported from THE BOTTOM UP!

[apexonephoto]

I don't have any solid answers. But as someone who attends many different pavement and dirt tracks, late models, modifieds, sprints, midgets, super modifieds, wings, non wings and a ton of support classes mixed in together, I can see the problems from a fans perspective.

Nobody in the general population knows Dave Darland, Jerry Coons or any sprint/midget/silver crown teams who have been around for 50 years. Those same people do know who Scott Bloomquist and Steve Kinser are. If you don't know who they are, maybe it's time to venture out of your comfort zone. These same people love watching "and they walked away" videos that show a midget in Australia flipping 20 times in a row. If they went to a race to see a wreck, but saw some good racing they might just like what they see and come back. Please correct me, I am only 31 yrs. old., live in Canada and have never been to the Indy 500.

My thoughts are there is no name recognition, or the ability to stick a name to a paint scheme, type of car or a car number is not possible in USAC. The casual fan can't follow racing, like so many of the experts on here can. A lot of people probably can't tell the difference in a silver crown car and a sprint car. Or a midget and a sprint car. Let alone from year to year, who has driven for the same team. There are exceptions to this, but far and wide teams and drivers don't seem to stick together in USAC.

As for all of the thousand year olds preaching about 1950, get over yourself because times, the world and technology change. You can change your attitude, learn how to spell so people can take you seriously or stop going to races.

P.S. when you respond with "YOUR A IDIOT", it's actually "YOU"RE AN IDIOT".

Hope to see some of you during sprint week, or at the Toledo show next week.

James

[Vukie]

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester As a fan, I hate all the direct competiton that dilutes shows. Im sorry but yeah, we had some loyal USAC racers at Midget week but Saturday was diluted. Both Powri and Badger and MSCS (Yeah its sprints but some are midget drivers too) Schedualled directly against it. I kinda wish a track that had the long standing schedualed date at the last minute would put up a huge purse to teach the others a lesson. Work together or pay for it! Chuck, superfan who just wants the best for racing, I think there is room for a NATIONAL NON WINGED SERIES but its gotta be supported from THE BOTTOM UP!

In 2008 Powri had 3 races scheduled the same weekend as they did this year [mid June], so who schedule against whom here?

http://web.archive.org/web/200802062...sp?SeriesID=12

[Charles Nungester]

Originally Posted by Vukie In 2008 Powri had 3 races scheduled the same weekend as they did this year [mid June], so who schedule against whom here? http://web.archive.org/web/200802062...sp?SeriesID=12

But was this LBurg or its fans fault? The MSCS deal was rescheduled.

Im just saying, Work together. If USAC can help Powri on some weekends, Powri should help USAC.
Put Davey Ray, Altig, Loyett and their stars against Boat, Levi, Hines, Coons and the other stars AS MANY TIMES AS POSSIBLE in both sanctions and the fans benifit and grow and so do the purses.

If Sprint week didn't morph into a 40+ car show, would it be as popular as it is today? It took many years to get the fan support it recieves today. It wasn't always this way.

[sceckert]

I honestly haven't the inclination to read the hundred and forty so posts on this subject. I have spoken to some of the folks here about the "What ifs" in the past and I am not a competitor who is financially-affected by any of this. But I hear and read often of the "(such and such) admitted their mistake and has moved on"-declaration, used above with regards to USAC and the apparent debacle at Mr. Barhorst's event. What has to be taken at full face-value is not only that the fans as well reach a point where they face a tipping point and "move on", but the fact that for many this "moving on" is irreversible..
For every fan who moves away from regular race attendance then eventually returns to select events that hold a special place for them, there are an equal number of fans who just Move On. As in: Go Away. Many draw a line in the sand, see it crossed, and turn their backs. Others approach a routine event, see something so unforeseen, amateurish and irresponsible that they find themselves almost surprised to say "Never Again!" on their way home, or in the days after.
From a fan's perspective, occurrences, events or debacles whittle away the tracks, races or sanctioning bodies that a fan feels willing to support. For myself, I've never returned to an Eldora winged event since I left before seeing Jason Sides take the checkered flag at The King's Royal some years back in the most offensive tire-eating travesty I've been subjected to. Similarly, when Farmer City had midgets shredding their tires at a ridiculous rate at a race around the turn of the century, I Q-Tipped away the debris from that track and haven't gone back.
There are quite simply too many occasions where USAC has fundamentally offended/betrayed/disappointed fans in the many decades in which it has dominated the traditional sprint scene, and the decision to abandon an entity that seemingly abandoned them cannot be marginalized or reversed. The consequences of causing this kind of fan upheaval is that these former fans find other alternatives and become loyal to them.
As much as this appeal to the creativity and suggestions of the rabid fans of open wheel that inhabit IOW may be well-intentioned and somewhat progressive, the genie is out of the bottle here. Re-acquiring a large fan base would take a sea-change of every kind of involvement in open wheel: Greater affordability of cars and equipment; Greater participation of lucrative sponsorship; Significantly diminished admission cost, particularly to full families; Greater care provided to track surfaces to ensure action-filled events; Shortened durations of racing programs (perhaps fewer underclasses, by consequence); Improved facilities(restrooms),Improved interaction at earlier hours between fans and teams......
Can ANY of this happen? Can MOST of it happen? What domino would have to fall first? Sponsorship holds the obvious Master Key to all the other locks, but what incentive is there for high dollar sponsors to indulge what appears to be a sport with an ever-decreasing fanbase? TV can't happen without sponsorship, but without TV, where is the sponsorship incentive? Must there come a figure like a Forrest Lucas, Tony Stewart, Humpy Wheeler or Bruton Smith who simply says "I will prop up this sport on my money and effort and force it back into the limelight"?
That pie-in-the-sky scenario seems silly on its face, but the notion that a coordinated effort can be orchestrated throughout the racing community to limit costs and synchronize a cooperative towards a greater good is every bit as silly.
Tradition will NEVER offset what is known (in some cases, ironically) as progress and the "tradition" of progress is ever-increasing costs, and regress is punishable by irrelevance and fiscal death. The fate of Manzanita Speedway is a grim testament to the power of the bottom line. It is unimaginable that Terre Haute is not going to suffer the same fate, so catch it while you can. Every time you attend a race at an event and notice new residences in view of the facility you can begin the countdown to extinction.
Many among us have seen the zenith, the glory days of this sport. In terms of relevance, in terms of financial rewards and in terms of fan support. Many will continue to provide their limited financial support through attendance and enthusiasm, despite expecting to live long enough to witness the near-extinction of the sport as it is currently recognized.
I support all progressive thinking and clever ideas that would bring stability and opportunity to teams that deserve them and most of all, the Drivers. The ONLY constant throughout all of the eras is the unwavering competitive spirit, will, bravery and extraordinary resilience of the drivers themselves. From Ray Harroun through Wilbur Shaw and AJ Foyt to Jan Opperman and Bubby Jones and Steve Kinser through Bryan Clauson and all his contemporaries. This isn't a steroid-driven sport or a physical specimen-filled league. Lloyd Ruby likely couldn't have vertically-leaped over a carton of cigarettes, long-side down. But nobody would bring a watch to Tony Stewart's attempt at a 100-meter dash, either; they'd bring a book to read.The drivers haven't gotten bigger or faster, stronger or less-given over to "vice". They haven't demonstrably changed as characters or heroes, as talents or enigmas. Jesse Hockett could jump into Jud Larson's seat today and Brad Sweet would fit nicely into Mario Andretti's. They'd race cause they do.
It's the cars that have gotten faster, the crowds that have gotten smaller, the bills that have gotten bigger. The dangers are the same type, just far fewer thanks to equipment safety and recuperative medical advances. I am pulling for the drivers and the fans in this economic grind that limits us all. Whether a sanctioning body survives, particularly one as rudderless and mistake-prone during so many critical eras and decisions as USAC has often been, is of next-to-no concern to the greater narrative.
I'll still go to Bloomington for The Sheldon, to Kokomo for Midget Week, to Oskaloosa for the two nights of Challenges and to Eldora for the (three or) Four Crown. Hopefully, I'll be able to afford to attend the Perris Oval Nats. They all deliver Bang For The Buck. And my buck is one that you'd better be willing to bang hard for. USAC...How Hard Are You Willing To Bang For My Buck? I know with total certainty how hard the Drivers are willing to bang for it. How hard are you?

[Vukie]

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester But was this LBurg or its fans fault? The MSCS deal was rescheduled. Im just saying, Work together. If USAC can help Powri on some weekends, Powri should help USAC. Put Davey Ray, Altig, Loyett and their stars against Boat, Levi, Hines, Coons and the other stars AS MANY TIMES AS POSSIBLE in both sanctions and the fans benifit and grow and so do the purses. If Sprint week didn't morph into a 40+ car show, would it be as popular as it is today? It took many years to get the fan support it recieves today. It wasn't always this way.

Where did I say that it was Lawrenceburg Speedway or the fan's fault? I didn't.

This is what you wrote "but Saturday was diluted. Both Powri and Badger and MSCS (Yeah its sprints but some are midget drivers too) Schedualled directly against it."

I pointed out that Powri had races on that weekend in 2008 [and partly in 2007 also], so USAC schedule races against them. So who's to blame for "Schedualled directly against it"? USAC or Powri?

The races and the tracks were hundred's miles apart and in different time zones. So what you telling me is that if USAC has midget somewhere, Powri and Badger shouldn't have a race of their own that night? Try and tell that to the members of those two clubs.

Badger has had races at Angell Park on Sunday nights for decades and when USAC had the IMW race at Kokomo that night, weren't they going against Badger?