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10/25/13, 12:37 AM   #21
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
diana
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This is very true, but how will they know how to bolt it down!!!!!!!
 
10/25/13, 6:52 AM   #22
PatrickMead#13
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Originally Posted by diana View Post
This is very true, but how will they know how to bolt it down!!!!!!!
Put "T" bolts in it when you melt it together / mold it.
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10/25/13, 8:00 AM   #23
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
DAD
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Originally Posted by PatrickMead#13 View Post
Put "T" bolts in it when you melt it together / mold it.
If you pour the molten lead into the bottom of the seat and place the lead weight between the butt and the seat it ain't going nowhere.
Lead being softer than aluminum might even feel like upholstering. One might experience a small problem if they try to exit the vehicle while upside down.

Honest Dad himself
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Last edited by DAD; 10/25/13 at 8:05 AM.
 
10/25/13, 9:20 AM   #24
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
Cadpro18
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Originally Posted by Copperhead View Post
I think in order to get Lightning Sprint / Upright Mini Sprint racing on the right track, the first thing we need to do is get fans and promotors interested in the product. These discussions always blame motors / rules as the cause of the downfall, when the fact is that even if everyone gets along and runs a common set of rules, it doesn't matter if no one knows what these cars are or wants them at their track. From the fan side of things, the class itself needs to be more uniform as far as a common name for the cars and a distinction from other forms of miniature open wheel machines. I think the ultimate key to success, beyond everything else, is to get these cars in front of a lot of people, at high-profile venues, during high-profile races. In other words, find a way to piggy-back USAC, WoO, etc. MMSA ran Sprint week at Bloomington two years straight, and I beleive Lightnings ran with the Outlaws in Illinois this year, but there needs to be more of this to generate the recognition. Find a way to run at Haubstadt, Gas City, Kokomo, Putnamville, Paducah, Tri-City, Belle Clair, etc. - and do it alongside a big-ticket show. It's good for drivers, sponsors, and fans. If you need proof of this concept, it's POWRi. The micros run everywhere the Midgets do, and the numbers of cars that show up is astounding. There's no reason they should be any more popular than 1000cc uprights. Don't discount small venues and fair races either, but you've got to make events out of them and get the locals excited and involved before cars even show up. Definitely discuss rules in the meeting, but by all means consider this subject as well.
I agree, not only for attracting fans, but drivers as well. We ran with the WoO at LaSalle last summer. LaSalle is a UMP Late Model track and I ran a LM there for a number of years. After the races quite a few LM regulars came down to my pit and after a lengthy Q & A, a few of them said that they would switch to a Lightning sprint if they were to run there as a weekly class. None of them had ever seen an upright lightning sprint before and were very impressed by the speed to $ ratio. They were most impressed with our motor and tire costs, which are almost insignificant compared to LMs. Of course, these might not be the type of teams you want to attract as they have some pretty big budgets...

And never call them mini sprints around these guys...LOL
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Last edited by Cadpro18; 10/25/13 at 9:22 AM.
 
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10/25/13, 9:28 AM   #25
PatrickMead#13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAD View Post
If you pour the molten lead into the bottom of the seat and place the lead weight between the butt and the seat it ain't going nowhere.
Lead being softer than aluminum might even feel like upholstering. One might experience a small problem if they try to exit the vehicle while upside down.

Honest Dad himself
That's why I'd put at least some sort of retainer on it. If not, the line of "get the lead out" might be takin to a new level....lol
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10/25/13, 10:43 AM   #26
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
openwheel44
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Copperhead...........Something you need to consider.........those 600's the POWERi guys took under their wing were a huge class BEFORE they took them as a support class. They have been around for years and years. Always had good car counts. Everywhere. Probably one of the reasons POWERi started running them. That was a no brainer. Already established car counts......all across the nation. And quess what.....they run basically under a standard set of rules and quidelines. Even the more open motors the POWERi cars run. Ask one of those guys what they have in their car/motor. I know....I own one. Lightning Sprints are cheaper. But 600's have an established car count already running at hundreds of facilities. The main thing.....they have basic accepted rules......Same as we are trying to do here. To get that exposure you are talking about takes car count. Too many tracks don't want to mess with a class with small car counts. We need cars. Period.....to make the next step. We need to appeal to more racers and expensive cars/motor costs are NOT going to do it. In this area, we have had LM, Modifieds and Sprint car guys talk the talk about switching to Lightning Sprints. Only a few actually do it. Good luck on that though because that is what we need to happen along with attracting Karting and 600 people.

FYI...........I have said my piece about the weight and by the way..........I weigh 215. Seems most of the groups have found a minimum weight they are comfortable with. It would just be nice to get one common weight for winged and one for non-winged. And not keep slowing the cars down doing it.
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Last edited by openwheel44; 10/25/13 at 10:47 AM.
 
10/25/13, 12:49 PM   #27
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
DAD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheel44 View Post
Copperhead...........Something you need to consider.........those 600's the POWERi guys took under their wing were a huge class BEFORE they took them as a support class. They have been around for years and years. Always had good car counts. Everywhere. Probably one of the reasons POWERi started running them. That was a no brainer. Already established car counts......all across the nation. And quess what.....they run basically under a standard set of rules and quidelines. Even the more open motors the POWERi cars run. Ask one of those guys what they have in their car/motor. I know....I own one. Lightning Sprints are cheaper. But 600's have an established car count already running at hundreds of facilities. The main thing.....they have basic accepted rules......Same as we are trying to do here. To get that exposure you are talking about takes car count. Too many tracks don't want to mess with a class with small car counts. We need cars. Period.....to make the next step. We need to appeal to more racers and expensive cars/motor costs are NOT going to do it. In this area, we have had LM, Modifieds and Sprint car guys talk the talk about switching to Lightning Sprints. Only a few actually do it. Good luck on that though because that is what we need to happen along with attracting Karting and 600 people.

FYI...........I have said my piece about the weight and by the way..........I weigh 215. Seems most of the groups have found a minimum weight they are comfortable with. It would just be nice to get one common weight for winged and one for non-winged. And not keep slowing the cars down doing it.

When Poweri put on their first indoor race at DuQuoin Magic Mini Mile. Jerry Tague's 1000cc AMSA Mini Sprints shared the race with the Poweri 600cc sidewinders as the only two classes on the race program. Jerry has done quite a few things to make the mini sprints a more popular class, and that was just one of them. We did such a good job at that race they replaced us with the midgets.

Why is it that with the sidewinders motor cost is not an object but with uprights it is. Those guys are like go karters you can sell them all kinds of snake oil go fast goodies for their motors and they fall all over themselves trying to be the first guy with the new trick goodie. We on the other hand worry our selves silly about some racer who by the definition of the term "RACER" is always looking for a way to go faster and will spend his kids lunch money to do it.

First we want a spec class "finger down throat" then we say while everything is on the table "WEIGHT" is not. We don't have enough cars to have a light and heavy class.

Weight over here in Indiana seems to be"the best kept speed secret" around. We got some big old boys that can put a hurt on any 941 pound car and driver. They didn't get big and fast overnight, they started out skinny and learned how to drive a race car and built up weight as they progressed. However most big old boys looking to get into racing ain't going to do too good starting out big in this class. They are going to think no need me getting into this sport I'll just go race the pumpkin patch class with the GoKarters at least I might have a chance there..

Sit back and study the problem. First you are wanting to slow down some racers (We think they are cheating), Then you come back and say certain things will make them too slow, (HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT WILL MAKE THEM TOO SLOW IF YOU HAVE A CLOSED MIND?). and don't try it.

The hard RR tire will slow down the inexperienced hot shoe with a million dollar motor making all kinds of strange noises but that big old boy with driving experience and set up skills will just keep on winning races.

There are a few drivers over here THAT we need to just plain outlaw because they are just too dammed fast and good for the other drivers. Is that what you guys are trying to do also and just don't realize it. Twenty pound difference in weight is not going to keep us from racing with you guys if we could find the money to get there. We won't even have to check our weigh to be legal. We wouldn't even have a problem with our motor specs.

We may not have national rules. BUT event UMP rules get changed around a little for non sanctioned races. Groups will tend to follow the rules that make sense for them. The group with the best set of rules will get copied a lot.

Maybe all we need to do is copy the USAC rule book and change a few motor specs and make chain drive optional.

Honest Dad himself
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Last edited by DAD; 10/27/13 at 12:44 PM.
 
10/29/13, 3:07 PM   #28
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
openwheel44
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Geeez Dad.....where do I start? I was going to blow off responding to your last post but I can't do it. We are trying to have a constructive thread talking about a constructive meeting in an attempt to help grow our Lighting Sprint class in the Midwest. Like I said........it may be a total waste of time, but then again, it might be a shot in the arm to help push this class along. A few of us want to try. Shoot us at dawn if nothing good comes of this deal. OK?

The more I think about it...........I can see where those "pesky" nationally accepted rules have just about killed the stock 600 classes. As well as the IMCA classes here in the Midwest. Not to mention how they have drug Karting down to almost being non-existent. And don't get me going on how those stupid ASCS rules have all but killed 360 sprint cars.

If everyone thinks a tire rule is the answer, I have no problem with going along with it. I just think it ought to go by durometer rather than tire brand. Nothing against any brand.....just let people have choices that might save a few bucks in the long run. Season points have nothing to do with the bigger special races we hope due to travelers so why worry about a specific tire that is utilized because of the points fund contributions when it might contradict with the tire a racer might run in other areas? I think we all agree it's a pain to buy a RR or set of tires for one or two special races.

You seem to be really hung up on weight issues like some of us are hung up on motor issues. Seems there needs to be a common weight for winged and non-winged that we can all live with. To me......and I am not speaking for anyone but myself.....over a 1000 pounds for this class is absurd. An average car should weight between 730-760 pounds with a wing. If not, someone needs to go car shopping. According to most of the other classes that consider driver weight as part of the equation, seems they feel 180-190 pounds is the average driver. That said.......seems 910-950 would be a good average weight. Guess what? Seems most groups are already within that range. We just need to find a common weight. Weighting the car beyond that forces the "lighter guys" to add unsafe weight and raises the inertia the car generates during a wreck un-needlessly. Those "big guys" you are talking about........At some point, they won't even fit in this size car. I weight 215 so I am well aware of the restricted confines these cars present. My point..........rather than being concerned about "shoe horning" someone into these cars, concentrate on an average weight and not penalize the lighter guys by adding more and more weight. And again.......slowing the cars down. And yes..........I think most will agree........LIGHT IS FAST. I have yet to see anyone in racing deliberately adding un-needed weight to their car to go faster. But I don't live in Indiana where inertia and various laws of physics evidently have a completely different effect. Lighter cars accelerate and decelerate faster than heavier cars............At least everywhere except Indiana obviously.

I have been a smart a$$ about the weight deal long enough. I have stated my opinion too many times already. I just think there is a workable weight out there that we can all live with at some of these considered "Big events." No one is trying to circumvent any organization's existing rules by putting a gun to their head forcing a change. We're just exchanging ideas and seeing if we can create some commonality on various rules. But not just on motors and weights. Various things will be discussed.

Last thing, there have been quite a few people who have done a lot to promote Lighting Sprints. Jerry is no doubt at the forefront. I applaud his efforts all these years. I have to say though...........your last sentence in that first paragraph has me somewhat confused. ????

You have a nice day DAD. You definitely keep it interesting. Oh.......BTW.......I do have a very open mind about the upcoming meeting and what might come out of it.
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Last edited by openwheel44; 10/29/13 at 3:11 PM.
 
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10/29/13, 5:05 PM   #29
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
DAD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheel44 View Post
Geeez Dad.....where do I start? I was going to blow off responding to your last post but I can't do it. We are trying to have a constructive thread talking about a constructive meeting in an attempt to help grow our Lighting Sprint class in the Midwest. Like I said........it may be a total waste of time, but then again, it might be a shot in the arm to help push this class along. A few of us want to try. Shoot us at dawn if nothing good comes of this deal. OK?

The more I think about it...........I can see where those "pesky" nationally accepted rules have just about killed the stock 600 classes. As well as the IMCA classes here in the Midwest. Not to mention how they have drug Karting down to almost being non-existent. And don't get me going on how those stupid ASCS rules have all but killed 360 sprint cars.

If everyone thinks a tire rule is the answer, I have no problem with going along with it. I just think it ought to go by durometer rather than tire brand. Nothing against any brand.....just let people have choices that might save a few bucks in the long run. Season points have nothing to do with the bigger special races we hope due to travelers so why worry about a specific tire that is utilized because of the points fund contributions when it might contradict with the tire a racer might run in other areas? I think we all agree it's a pain to buy a RR or set of tires for one or two special races.

You seem to be really hung up on weight issues like some of us are hung up on motor issues. Seems there needs to be a common weight for winged and non-winged that we can all live with. To me......and I am not speaking for anyone but myself.....over a 1000 pounds for this class is absurd. An average car should weight between 730-760 pounds with a wing. If not, someone needs to go car shopping. According to most of the other classes that consider driver weight as part of the equation, seems they feel 180-190 pounds is the average driver. That said.......seems 910-950 would be a good average weight. Guess what? Seems most groups are already within that range. We just need to find a common weight. Weighting the car beyond that forces the "lighter guys" to add unsafe weight and raises the inertia the car generates during a wreck un-needlessly. Those "big guys" you are talking about........At some point, they won't even fit in this size car. I weight 215 so I am well aware of the restricted confines these cars present. My point..........rather than being concerned about "shoe horning" someone into these cars, concentrate on an average weight and not penalize the lighter guys by adding more and more weight. And again.......slowing the cars down. And yes..........I think most will agree........LIGHT IS FAST. I have yet to see anyone in racing deliberately adding un-needed weight to their car to go faster. But I don't live in Indiana where inertia and various laws of physics evidently have a completely different effect. Lighter cars accelerate and decelerate faster than heavier cars............At least everywhere except Indiana obviously.

I have been a smart a$$ about the weight deal long enough. I have stated my opinion too many times already. I just think there is a workable weight out there that we can all live with at some of these considered "Big events." No one is trying to circumvent any organization's existing rules by putting a gun to their head forcing a change. We're just exchanging ideas and seeing if we can create some commonality on various rules. But not just on motors and weights. Various things will be discussed.

Last thing, there have been quite a few people who have done a lot to promote Lighting Sprints. Jerry is no doubt at the forefront. I applaud his efforts all these years. I have to say though...........your last sentence in that first paragraph has me somewhat confused. ????

You have a nice day DAD. You definitely keep it interesting. Oh.......BTW.......I do have a very open mind about the upcoming meeting and what might come out of it.
Since you gained 5 pounds between posts I guess I should assume you stopped by Mc Donalds the other day.

To be honest I'm not too hung up on weight or motors specs. When you go to Churchill Downs here in Louisville the smart money always bet the jockey. The same holds true for race cars.
You can worry all you want about either engine, weight or tire
but the same people will still always be winning.

What you want to do is give some sort of appearance of a level playing field. I do know rules generally when made complicated and specific tend to make racing much more expensive. We are in the middle of a 6 or seven page post in IOW right now about dopeing sprint car tires. Worrying about catching cheaters is only going to give you guys ulcers and the cheaters will have something more to think about and work toward circumventing.

National rules have helped sidewinders? Poweri has one set of rules and little tracks all over the country have their own rules based of of the nmma rules and what works for them.

What grew sidewinders? Starting drivers off at 8 years old, little tracks all over the country running nothing but modified midgets from 100cc up to 600cc, heck back east they even tried 1000cc sidewinders, just too hard to hook them up I guess . Right now with Dwarf cars, 1000cc SCCA cars both open wheel and inclosed wheel, Drag bikes and so on have caused these motors to sky rocket in price.

A bunch out west wanted to run aftermarket pistons and rods so they could keep their old high mileage motors going longer, not a bad idea if done in the spirit of fairness BUT??? How does one fix a crank that is worn .0005", new cranks go for about a grand and welded cranks about the same amount.

Weather you like it or not we are after all racing 1000cc MINI SPRINTS. We are the fastest and most economical form of dirt open wheel racing out there period. We race on larger tracks usually than sidewinders, on 3/8 mile and smaller tracks we are much much faster than the UMP open wheel cars. We are inherently a more dangerous sport than either ump modified or stock stock cars something about open wheels tend cause some concern among prospective racers.

Phil: It is a great deal of fun for me to get you guys writing and talking. You are however very set in your ways. I see your up coming meeting as a way for you guys to validate your ideas and promote them. People with open minds don't get up set about another persons views. Sit, listen, discuss, compromise. That would be "BABY STEPS".

Don't try to be 600cc sidewinders, Have you ever priced a race motor for one of them things (EBAY FTZ 636 Kaw $4495.00 with core)? We went to the Shoot out the first year they ran 1200cc cars. It was just like going to a go kart track and sitting in the pits. From 9am till midnight, there was always somebody holding the throttle wide open and trying to do a supper tune right there in the pits.

There are many more 600cc bikes imported into the US than 1000cc bikes. The average 1000cc rider is also much more experienced so they just don't wreck as much and put a lot more hard miles on the bike until it gets dismantled, sometimes by the owner to finance a new ride.

Unless like Wayne Davis we switch to a new motor maybe "ECOTEC" we just can't find enough good motors to grow a whole lot more.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get a 2012 zx10r under the hood without using a periscope.

On the last paragraph deal. I guess I should explain. Kenny Brown of PowerI had put in the little indoor track at DuQuoin for winter racing and I guess he wanted to see how Midget size cars would perform on it. We did really well and the Midgets followed.

Honest Dad himself
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Last edited by DAD; 10/29/13 at 6:28 PM.
 
10/29/13, 10:47 PM   #30
17B
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I applaud all positive ideas to try to put something like this together. As a promotor of a dirt track, guys looking outside the box really can help their situation when they come to the table with ideas that works for many, instead of working against each other. If clay county speedway can help support this I am all ears.
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Last edited by 17B; 10/29/13 at 10:48 PM.
 
5 members like this post: Copperhead, PatrickMead#13, Quantrill, sportster1, Wayne Davis
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