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10/23/13, 1:20 PM   #11
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
MC@Performance Fab
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LOL...silly question really, we all know the answer.
 
10/24/13, 7:06 AM   #12
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
Quantrill
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The people who are coming to this meeting have decades of promoting, racing and engine building experience. Just to get them to sit in the same room together to discuss lightning / mini sprints is priceless. I am very excited to hear from each and every one that attends. I am personally looking forward to learning from there experience and knowledge.
 
10/24/13, 10:04 AM   #13
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
openwheel44
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While I agree a "tire rule" is an option.....an option some groups have already adopted, I personally don't put too much faith in it. Not unless you put on an absolute "brick." Then what have you done? Slowed all the cars down. Maybe to the point a friggin' 600 is faster than our class. Sounds like a good formula to grow that 600 class though! Since our cars put out limited horsepower in relation to the RR and LR tread width (contact patches)......I don't see that tire that big of factor. Especially when the track is somewhat tacky. I think we all agree......tacky tracks, about anything works as long as it has air in it due to our limited HP. I'll admit that as the track slicks off possibly by the feature that tire makes a slight difference. But you said yourself......the racer that knows setups and driving skills will still prevail. So why force people to buy a more expensive tire? Yes.......I am talking about Hoosiers. I run Amercian racers for one simple reason..........cheaper. And they work as good as Hoosiers in my opinion. And yes I have run them both. It would be simpler to just have a durometer rule but then some organizations will lose out on their Hoosier "contribution." And that ain't good. Trust me....I have raced in a couple of other classes with spec tire rules. Honestly........didn't save me any money and it didn't change the outcome of any of the races. Fast guys are fast.....for a bunch of reasons.

Weight? Again........let's weight the hell out of them so that same 600 mentioned above is faster than our Lighting Sprints. Look around........on small quarters, they are about the same lap times now. Ooops.......there we go pushing racers to the 600 class again. Speed and economics is our selling point. We don't want to give away the speed and we need to control the economics as best as possible. But maybe I am looking at this all wrong. I figure there will be a bunch of people much smarter than me at this meeting to enlighten me. None of us are looking for an argument...............we are looking for solutions to grow this class.

Your no-go gauge system will require multiple gauges though.......right? I like the idea though. We have been using the scissor type unit this year. It works but there is definitely room for improvement. I may not be a motor man, but bore and stroke is about the least of my concerns but you have to start somewhere. Me..........it's all in the head and the compression. Mark is exploring the possibility of limited RPM's and a way to check it. The 600 guys are evidently doing that now in certain areas. That might be another starting point? Why have aftermarket rods then? Whatever is decided......it has to be "techable" with minimal effort.
 
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10/24/13, 10:29 AM   #14
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
MC@Performance Fab
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Iv'e been thinking for quite awhile now a 13000 across the board RPM limit would be a great way to even things up, help older motors run with the newer stuff, and help keep motors alive and COSTS DOWN.
 
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10/24/13, 11:49 AM   #15
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
DAD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheel44 View Post
While I agree a "tire rule" is an option.....an option some groups have already adopted, I personally don't put too much faith in it. Not unless you put on an absolute "brick." Then what have you done? Slowed all the cars down. Maybe to the point a friggin' 600 is faster than our class. Sounds like a good formula to grow that 600 class though! Since our cars put out limited horsepower in relation to the RR and LR tread width (contact patches)......I don't see that tire that big of factor. Especially when the track is somewhat tacky. I think we all agree......tacky tracks, about anything works as long as it has air in it due to our limited HP. I'll admit that as the track slicks off possibly by the feature that tire makes a slight difference. But you said yourself......the racer that knows setups and driving skills will still prevail. So why force people to buy a more expensive tire? Yes.......I am talking about Hoosiers. I run Amercian racers for one simple reason..........cheaper. And they work as good as Hoosiers in my opinion. And yes I have run them both. It would be simpler to just have a durometer rule but then some organizations will lose out on their Hoosier "contribution." And that ain't good. Trust me....I have raced in a couple of other classes with spec tire rules. Honestly........didn't save me any money and it didn't change the outcome of any of the races. Fast guys are fast.....for a bunch of reasons.

Weight? Again........let's weight the hell out of them so that same 600 mentioned above is faster than our Lighting Sprints. Look around........on small quarters, they are about the same lap times now. Ooops.......there we go pushing racers to the 600 class again. Speed and economics is our selling point. We don't want to give away the speed and we need to control the economics as best as possible. But maybe I am looking at this all wrong. I figure there will be a bunch of people much smarter than me at this meeting to enlighten me. None of us are looking for an argument...............we are looking for solutions to grow this class.

Your no-go gauge system will require multiple gauges though.......right? I like the idea though. We have been using the scissor type unit this year. It works but there is definitely room for improvement. I may not be a motor man, but bore and stroke is about the least of my concerns but you have to start somewhere. Me..........it's all in the head and the compression. Mark is exploring the possibility of limited RPM's and a way to check it. The 600 guys are evidently doing that now in certain areas. That might be another starting point? Why have aftermarket rods then? Whatever is decided......it has to be "techable" with minimal effort.
Phil

The Hp Is in the head. That is why we run old Kawasaki's.
The heads unlike Suzuki are ported right from the factory. The BMW came up with a shorter stroke bigger bore thus bigger valves and even more Horsepower and RPM> If and when it works the Japan makers will follow suit.

What I have noticed this year is low mile motors are hard to find and .ooo5>> five ten thoundsandth of an inch in crank main bearing clearance make a big difference in the life of one of these motors.

Good news for the motor building people bad news for the racer.

MC brings up the point of rev limiters, more cost to the racer but a good idea. We would want to advance the cam timing a little put longer ram tubes on to move the torque and Horsepower numbers down on RPM scale. Still More money and that would slow them down a little also but make them live. If you take the rev limiter off of a stock motor it will just keep on revving until the valves and piston collide and. Checking with the 600 people might be a good idea.

Weight>>>>We generally cross the scales at 1050 to 1075 pounds and on a good day we can run with anything or anybody out there. It isn't done with high dollar motors although them old Kaw's are bears right off the bike. We won the last race we ran and I bet we were also the heaviest car in the field. Weight matters in the start line to turn one drag race after that it is all driver and car. Slow these weight watchers down a little in the drag race and you will make better racing, and make the foot ball player feel more like getting a race car. Why would anyone buy a race car if they knew they would start off at a 100 pounds disadvantage from the hot shoe Jockeys out there. By cutting out the big guy and making him feel non competitive from the start you are eliminating over half of your perspective racers. We started out at 95 pounds and I felt it wasn't fair to a lot of the racers and I said so. Now we are 250+ and I still don't think it is fair. The only saving grace is that the same thing that makes one get heavy "age" is also the thing that turns one into a better driver "experience".

Tires>>>> I laughed at Ron when he bought up the idea. When it comes to hooking up a race car he and his sons are the best around. They are racers to be emulated and gives one something to strive for. They should win their share of races and nothing makes me feel better than to beat them once or twice.

The tire business is competitive, boy I love competition. When Hoosier sets the price American racer can beat it. They would like nothing better than to take all the mini sprint business away from Hoosier, I don't know if Hoosier feels the same way, but that small slice would be noticed. We have run American racers before and had no problems. There is not much mark up in tires but if we could get American racer on board and implement some of the ideas I brought up it could make racing cheaper. On some occasions promoters have used spec tires as a cash cow for themselves. Be forewarned racers usually don't put up with that Idea. I am sure other racers out there have other Ideas of their own.

Now is the time to use this old board. I don't intentionally try to P1ss people off, but I am pretty good at it. What I do try to do is get people thinking, and sometimes I might be a little too direct.

The only idea that is stupid is the one that you have and don't bring to the attention of others. Now is the time and place to do it.

I have had a love affair with mini sprint racing for a long time now. They are the most affordable, fastest form of open wheel racing out. I would sure never do anything knowingly to hurt or impede the growth of the sport.

You can also be sure if I can rattle your chain and get you thinking a little and talking>>>>> I WILL.

Honest Dad himself
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Last edited by DAD; 11/2/13 at 9:19 PM.
 
10/24/13, 10:27 PM   #16
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
Copperhead
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I think in order to get Lightning Sprint / Upright Mini Sprint racing on the right track, the first thing we need to do is get fans and promotors interested in the product. These discussions always blame motors / rules as the cause of the downfall, when the fact is that even if everyone gets along and runs a common set of rules, it doesn't matter if no one knows what these cars are or wants them at their track. From the fan side of things, the class itself needs to be more uniform as far as a common name for the cars and a distinction from other forms of miniature open wheel machines. I think the ultimate key to success, beyond everything else, is to get these cars in front of a lot of people, at high-profile venues, during high-profile races. In other words, find a way to piggy-back USAC, WoO, etc. MMSA ran Sprint week at Bloomington two years straight, and I beleive Lightnings ran with the Outlaws in Illinois this year, but there needs to be more of this to generate the recognition. Find a way to run at Haubstadt, Gas City, Kokomo, Putnamville, Paducah, Tri-City, Belle Clair, etc. - and do it alongside a big-ticket show. It's good for drivers, sponsors, and fans. If you need proof of this concept, it's POWRi. The micros run everywhere the Midgets do, and the numbers of cars that show up is astounding. There's no reason they should be any more popular than 1000cc uprights. Don't discount small venues and fair races either, but you've got to make events out of them and get the locals excited and involved before cars even show up. Definitely discuss rules in the meeting, but by all means consider this subject as well.
 
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10/24/13, 11:42 PM   #17
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
diana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAD View Post
RULES***RULES***RULES*** K. I. S. S.

Mini sprints have always been and I guess always will be a class devoted to entry level racers. There will always be new racers starting out racing a few years and then moving either up and or out. They all have dreams of that elusive first win and how they are going to feel and to some even how they are going to get up on top of that wing for their first wing dance. They may spend tons and tons of money on cars, shocks, air cleaners, alcohol conversions and custom built motor chasing that dream. When it does not come over night, they naturally thing that the guy doing all the winning is cheating.

What Mini Sprints need to prosper and grow is a new classy name and super quick way to tec the motors to find and get rid of these cheaters amongst us.>>>>>> Like the old coach would say "You guy's ain't keeping your eye on the ball!"

It would be wise to stop paying so much attention to motor specs and pay more attention to what really wins races. Some of these things might be**********

1. Driver experience and ability. Some are born to be drivers, some have been tutored by exceptional good retired drivers and others just work years and years to become winning racers. It doesn't happen overnight.

2. Car and driver weight. I have been preaching for years and years about what would be a fair weight for all concerned. Any race car is controlled by weight. In go karts they have gone so far is to have the class determined by weight. Light, medium, heavy, and really heavy or "pumpkin patch". Then they found out that the Junior classes were faster than the Seniors so they mandated restrictors for the carburetors to keep the kids slower than their dads. The same thing I understand is done with the "sidewinder Junior class".

Grown ups grow up different. Some are 100 pound jockeys and some are 250 pound football players. We have proven that driver experience can make up a lot for the extra weight but the guy just starting out does not have a chance. Since we weigh every race. Why not set the minimum weight at the average weight of the field of the previous year. I can hear those motor tec people crying as I type these words of wisdom. These are the same people that spend so much time sitting on the scales before the race getting it down to the last ounce. All weight should be in the form of a lead plate placed right under the drivers BUTT. Then we would not have to worry about .049 roll bars and thousand of dollars spent on Titanium Bolts. If you got the money to spend on these things "BE MY GUEST".

3. Get a Tire company to sponsor the group. American Racer builds a very good tire. I think they would be responsive to being a major sponsor if we could come up with enough race cars buying their tires.
I have had several talks with Ron Ambrose one of the winningest TQ drivers, and Mini Sprint owners in the mid west. Ron's IDEA a really hard spec right rear tire. My reply to him was won't that play right into your hand and give you a big advantage over the other racers, His reply to me was a "WINK".
Lets go a couple of steps further with the tire idea.

a. Also set up a minimum durometer reading to be taken at the time of weighing the car and driver.

b. Have the tire company install a bar code serial number on each tire. Require that the same serial number be used for at least 4 to 6 feature races. (Sticker tires are faster no matter the compound)

c. The tire company would publish the minimum price for each tire. and the race director would be responsible for keeping track of the serial numbers (a simple smart phone ap.)

d. The tire company should publish the minimum selling price for their tires and donate a percentage of the sale to the points fund for each group. The problem with most spec tire deals is the racers seem to think the promoter is making a huge profit on the sale of tires, some times true sometime not. Lets try to get rid of that idea and perhaps if done right we could even save a few percent in our tire bill.

Good Luck on trying to figure out a way to keep these little motors down to 200HP instead of 220HP. The motor cycle manufactures did not leave a lot of room for improvement on what is already near perfection. You guys can keep on looking for cheater motors, but I doubt if you ever find one. Those guys are usually racing a little further back in the pack.

Honest Dad himself
I AGREE WITH THE WEIGHT RULE. Let's make it as FAIR as possible for all drivers. With all the brains and know it alls out there
I'm sure they could figure out a way to add a few lbs. to the cars. I brought this up to our club last year and You should have heard the WHINING AND CRYING
from the drivers 100 - 120 lbs soaking wet. Where o where could I possibly add weight to my car IT'S IMPOSSIBLE It was mentioned that weight would make no DIFFERENCE in the cars PERFORMANCE. Go tell that to the NASCAR guys!! They just could not believe any one could even think such a thing. The idea was RIDICULOUS and even considered DANGEROUS
to the drivers and even the fans. Imagine I was told with the extra weight the car would become a LETHAL WEAPON and that wouldn't be good for the CLUB
Can you believe this CRAP, worst of all these DRIVERS pretend that they BELIEVE this. Any way that is what we are faced with up here. I guess if I could run with LESS WEIGHT / UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
would seem like a good ides.
Later!!!!!!!!!
 
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10/24/13, 11:49 PM   #18
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
diana
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If you have a few cars in different classes but not enough to make one class you could race all the cars in one class using the weight rule to even up the score.
 
10/25/13, 12:01 AM   #19
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
DAD
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Amen Kid.

Times are tuff right now. Racing like everything else feels the crunch. Four years ago I bought an 08 zx10r with 400 miles on it for I think $1900.00. Now a 2011 with 400 miles is $3000.00 and it doesn't even include the harness or ecu. There is a shortage of people that can buy and wreck a $14000.00 bike right now, but in the future I am sure these people will come back. Until then we got to tighten our belts and hold on. Many feel rules are the problem and a good rule book couldn't hurt, but sometimes I think we are just looking for something to blame or problems and shortfalls on other than the real cause.

I wasn't kidding about the weight thing, I bet that more than one half of the population of adult males are 200 pounds plus. Why would a 225 pound guy want to get up on a horse and run the Kentucky Derby against a bunch of 100 pound Jockeys. If you keep the weight rule the way it is. Lets say a guy goes out and buys a safe old race car that weighs in at 800 pounds and he is a big old boy who weigh 225 pounds he start out racing a with a 75 pound penalty. I can remember when it was 750 pounds car and driver in the 600 uprights and we had to add weight. With a 1000 pound minimum guys could convert old midgets over and still feel competitive.

Honest Dad himself
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Last edited by DAD; 10/25/13 at 12:05 AM.
 
10/25/13, 12:11 AM   #20
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
DAD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diana View Post
I AGREE WITH THE WEIGHT RULE. Let's make it as FAIR as possible for all drivers. With all the brains and know it alls out there
I'm sure they could figure out a way to add a few lbs. to the cars. I brought this up to our club last year and You should have heard the WHINING AND CRYING
from the drivers 100 - 120 lbs soaking wet. Where o where could I possibly add weight to my car IT'S IMPOSSIBLE It was mentioned that weight would make no DIFFERENCE in the cars PERFORMANCE. Go tell that to the NASCAR guys!! They just could not believe any one could even think such a thing. The idea was RIDICULOUS and even considered DANGEROUS
to the drivers and even the fans. Imagine I was told with the extra weight the car would become a LETHAL WEAPON and that wouldn't be good for the CLUB
Can you believe this CRAP, worst of all these DRIVERS pretend that they BELIEVE this. Any way that is what we are faced with up here. I guess if I could run with LESS WEIGHT / UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
would seem like a good ides.
Later!!!!!!!!!
A 12" x 12" x 1" sheet of lead that would be the size of a 12" seat bottom weighs 59 pounds.
THEY CAN SIT ON IT DARN IT.

Honest Dad himself
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Last edited by DAD; 10/25/13 at 12:19 AM.
 
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