[jdull99]

Attn BMARA voters at tonight's meeting: Please consider car counts of the "D2" style racing clubs in the IL, IA, etc areas - the ones that the 80yr old BMARA club started to base their 2015 rules off of. From the research I've done, the car counts at the last two BMARA races (allowing restricted National engines, 2.4s, 1000s) exceeded the highest of clubs that don't allow or even more greatly restrict "National" engines. Some of the other clubs, not allowing restricted "National" engine or even more greatly restricted "National" engines; had more than one race with less than 8 cars starting feature events in 2015. Just asking consideration before making $1000s of dollars (when $20,000 "2.4s" are legal) and years of equipment obsolete in the WI area too please. Thank-you for everyone's efforts and the fact that we are even able to have conversations on the state of 2016 WI area midget racing - of any form.

[jdull99]

The last one seemed pretty split to me...1000s were fast & the "2.4s" will get faster (not to mention the one race a "2.4" won):

Feature: 1. Jake Neuman (restricted); 2. Bill Balog (restricted); 3. David Budres (restricted); 4. Brandon Waelti (2.4); 5. Aaron Schuck (2.4); 6. Mitchell Davis (1000 Mini-maybe?); 7. Kurt Mayhew (2.4); 8. Buddy Luebke (restricted); 9. Zach Emmons (1000 Mini); 10. Derek Childs (2.4); 11. Brad Greenup; 12. Mike Stroik (2.4); 13. Danny Smith (2.4); 14. Ken Hanson (2.4); 15. Tommy Bigelow (2.4); 16. John Smith (1000); 17. Randy Reed (2.4); 18.Paul Shaffer (1000); 19. Neil Weigen (2.4); 20. Scott Zane (1000 Mini-maybe?); 21. Andy Baugh (1000); 22. Johnny Murdock (2.4)

[jjones752]

This got me wondering if restrictors would be a better (and potentially safer) way to handicap than weight for all D-2 engine types?

[DAD]

Jason

I did not bother to remove my shoes but I came up with 6 wins for the 2.4 engines>>6 wins for the 1000cc engines and 4 wins for the restricted engines. Sounds like you guys are doing something right. The other thing I noted was you had so many winners with different last names, that is also a good thing, once again sounds like you guys are doing something right again.

Every body are banging heads together trying to come up with a set of usable rules for this particular class of Midget. Some are suggesting letting the 1000cc cars go up to 1400cc's and allowing the Suzuki Hybusa and ZX1400 Kawasaki to race also. Not a bad idea I guess in that it would open up the choices for engines somewhat in a very crowded market for cycle motors. I would assume that a "Mini May-be" is one of these motors.

You guys need to pay attention to the 2.4 motors. You are right the Snake Oil Salesmen are out in force and ready to pounce on a bunch of UN-informed racers to sell them these $20,000 2,4 motors. DO NOT buy into their plan it will kill racing Midgets once again. Keep your cars competitive to one another, keep a bunch of different racers winning, if you find somebody too fast then slow them down before they run off the racers and the crowds.

As far as the old National motors go>>> the way I see it is keep them restricted. They will live a lot longer and be cheaper to maintain. But when an owner of one of these motors is faced with a rebuild then the 2.4 or I would rather say 2.5 motor will look very favorable to them. Don't run them off right now because they happen to own an older but no longer competitive in National Midget motor, let them race.

Watch the new car market and adapt your rules to reflect what the automakers are doing. No engine lives forever, they wear out or blow up or both. Buying an engine from a salvage yard is much cheaper than having an engine rebuilt. Don't get stuck with a bunch of 20 year old Eco-tec motors and spending a fortune to keep them running. Throw them away and buy new and updated motors.

Like I said many auto makers have changed their 2.4 motors to 2.5 liters. So what!!, they have changed their engineering just a tad and for racing to be affordable the rules have to change to accommodate the guys furnishing you your engines.

New engines are on the horizon! Many Manufactures have chosen to go to yet smaller motors and force feed them. This makes them more efficient. That translates to more power less fuel. In the past supercharging has been a taboo word in racing. They were just too expensive. Well just like the motors when they produce them by the millions all of a sudden the price goes way down, so please don't ban them. You may have to go to USAC and buy up all their old waste gates to keep the over zealous racer from bumping up the boast over stock but it can be controlled or regulated if you think on it.

Good luck with your rules meeting>>don't paint yourselves in a corner. Remember you are working on something brand new and no body has all the answers. It is going to require thinking out of the box so I might suggest a night at "La Quinta Inn" may be in order for the participants.

Honest Dad himself

[Wayne Davis]

Originally Posted by DAD Jason Some are suggesting letting the 1000cc cars go up to 1400cc's and allowing the Suzuki Hybusa and ZX1400 Kawasaki to race also. Not a bad idea I guess in that it would open up the choices for engines somewhat in a very crowded market for cycle motors. You guys need to pay attention to the 2.4 motors. You are right the Snake Oil Salesmen are out in force and ready to pounce on a bunch of UN-informed racers to sell them these $20,000 2,4 motors. DO NOT buy into their plan it will kill racing Midgets once again. Keep your cars competitive to one another, keep a bunch of different racers winning, if you find somebody too fast then slow them down before they run off the racers and the crowds. Honest Dad himself

POPS/Dad/Bill.....could not AGREE with you more....If any engine in D-2 becomes over $10,000.00 then we as promoters/series owners HAVE NOT done our job for what D-2 was conceived to do and that is to "BRING BACK AFFORDABLE" midget racing to AMERICA!!!!!!!!

If we don't agree on the SOLE principle of Division II "BRING BACK AFFORDABLE" midget racing then this meeting I will be traveling 15 hrs to this weekend is all for not and we might as well continue

[DAD]

Wayne

Let me describe my view of building one of these little motors out of my garage or back yard.

1. I would start out with a new low mileage motor, with less than 5000 miles. It would probably be a 2.5 since GM does not produce a 2.4 any more. It would also be direct injection. This means that it injects the fuel directly into the combustion chamber instead of the intake port. This allows them to leave the factory with a higher compression ratio than the older motors ( I think around 11.5 to 1) good enough for methanol.

2. I would maybe remove and lighten the stock intake valves leaving the exhaust stock. I have a lathe and valve grinder at home.

3. I would have a good valve seat work performed on it and blend them into the ports.

4. I would probably do away with the VVT as it is too complicated and not needed to perform well on the race track. Devise a way to degree the cams and lock them into place.

5. I might consider high compression pistons if some one was beating us too bad and also while in there replace the stock rod bolts if I removed the pistons. That is "IF" and or "WHEN" otherwise I would leave them stock.

6. I would remove the air box and replace it with aftermarket throttle bodies. All they do is regulate the air now. The injectors are in the head.

7. I would remove the balance shafts and cut the oil to certain parts of the engine to get more oil to the rods.

8.Build a regular wet sump pan and argument it with an accumulator for those awkward times we sometime encounter in racing.

9. Either get my ecu flashed or invest $1000.00 in an aftermarket unit that would be much easier to adjust and lighter.

10. Build a super set of Dad's 4 into 2 into 1 headers and go racing.


I should have about five or six thousand dollars in the whole thing and the nice part is if I leave the engine stock or nearly so when that motor bites the dust another $1500.00 invested in another salvage stock motor and I can be racing again reusing all that expensive stuff all over again on the new motor.

You guys and especially the engine builders are not giving these new motors credit for being built very strong right out of the car. There should be no need for rods and pistons, cams valves and valve springs. Race them and have fun. When they blow buy a new one.

Honest Dad himself

[Bradleyracing86]

4-6k doing it yourself...
As they say on "The Price is Right" for the guy without that machine shop and knowledge... What's the retail price? If someone hired that work done....

[Wayne Davis]

Originally Posted by Bradleyracing86 4-6k doing it yourself... As they say on "The Price is Right" for the guy without that machine shop and knowledge... What's the retail price? If someone hired that work done....

Andy there are complete new race ready engines for $7500 to 8 right now from engine builders and when I say race ready I mean drop in and plumb...that's it....those engine are EXTREMELY competitive also....if you break one for one reason or another a complete new long block is around 3 grand...just bolt on your acc. If you take care of it (general maintenance) that engine will last you for 3 years without a rebuild!!!

Tried my damnest to get you on board the last 2 years with this program, and told you as we ate seafood at Singletons on the St. Johns here in Jacksonville that it was coming....It's not coming anymore...IT's HERE!!!! Hope to see ya soon my friend

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Bradleyracing86 4-6k doing it yourself... As they say on "The Price is Right" for the guy without that machine shop and knowledge... What's the retail price? If someone hired that work done....

Andy

I don't know what it would cost. I have very seldom have had to have someone do it for me>> being a tinker type person. You are in the business and I am sure you could give a much better answer to the cost of your labor and mark up on your parts. We just have to figure out how to allow you to make a living without busting the bank so to speak. Racers and supplier need one another and if one does not try to take advantage of the other, (I know it works both ways) racing should flourish. No Racing is Cheap!!!! some classes can be more affordable than others however.


Some people race to be able to tinker. Some people race to spend money. Some people in the act of racing actual pick up a little mechanical ability and a few tools along the way, didn't you guys? A big Part of that Money for the motor would be to purchase hardware that could be used over and over again, like injection and computers. Like motorcycle engines these motors hold a lot of potential and are much easier too get a hold of for very little money.

I see DII Midgets as a natural progression from the Mini-Sprint and Midget. There is no comparison between a late Ford Dura tec and the old Ford Pinto Motor. I remember when the Esslinger first appeared. They were state of the art and inexpensive. Well these little motors are just like that. Myself I am waiting for the Stock Block 2.0 Supercharged motor to become a Midget race motor.

I like Mini-Sprint racing. I like wings they speed up a young drivers learning curve. They also make a very small race car very fast on most Dirt race tracks, approaching the times of the 410 Sprint cars.

Racing should always be evolving as automobile design evolves, this will help keep the cost down for the racer. Has your new motor evolved from that little F2 Honda you started out with. In fact although your new motor is a rocket ship it is still like the F2 basically stock inside. Sure there will always be people that want to install a $2500.00 injection system on a $1000.00 Motor. That is fine as long as there is no real noticeable advantage. The trick is to keep the motors basically stock internally. The rule makers have to be smart enough to let the racers experiment but prevent them from extravagant purchases trying to out run one another. Generally these charges come in the form of expensive racing equipment and high dollar engine builders. That is why they call it un-obanium.

DII Midgets appear to be here and Mini Sprints are here. The DII class welcomes Mini-Sprints. Maybe it is time for the Mini-Sprint racers to reciprocate? I really don't know why because more often than not the Mini-Sprints tend to be faster than the auto engines. Auto engines can and will improve in performance and I think they can do it without changing the internals and if they do that they will grow and prosper, however if the rule makers chose to open their class up to specialty builders and special parts I am afraid they will fail.

Competition always improves the breed, be it baseball or racing. I love "Competition".

I sure wish I was 20 years younger.!!!

Honest Dad himself

[red70racer]

I have tried to stay out of all these discussions because it turns into a long pi$$ing contest with everyone thinking they're right
I have sent Wayne Davis my opinions as he asked in a thread some time back
I disagree with 2 of dad's statements I've copied and paste here
2. I would maybe remove and lighten the stock intake valves leaving the exhaust stock. I have a lathe and valve grinder at home.

3. I would have a good valve seat work performed on it and blend them into the ports.

Dad, not everyone has the mechanical ability to do the modifications you mention

I really don't care what you do to the lower end as far as pistons and rods, in my opinion the head must be untouched, zero modifications
If you make the engines from a salvage yard competitive it will keep the cost where they need to be
This is one mans opinion, and I do have a DII engine in my stable
Jeff Palazzolo