[Charles Nungester]

I do think some things have improved dirt wise. Haven't attended a Pavement event and at that only two were USAC in about five years for Border wars.

Increasing the car count to make the heats and removing that overpacked 8 lap race for two possitions is a good thing.

Rob Klepper amazes me with his excitement level, information, Lineup calling and helping make stars of good or great
racers with Self Proven names and names given by him or others to drivers. THE MADMAN! The ROCKET, COOOOOOOOOOONS JR ect. He almost always packs everything possible into one of his PA deals and to be honest a USAC SHOW including some future events! WITHOUT HIM is almost NOT USAC at this point. He helps elevate it to event status with his vocal prowess

Cars used to have names, Lasted five or so years. The Delrose special, The Cissy Smith special. Even if a fan didn't know who was driving for the night, They recognized the car. There are still some highly recognizable cars but many times thats not the same exact car that finishes the season. Why name a car thats gonna be trashed in a dozen races or so?

You take a race fan or someone who's never been to a sprint car race and usually their reaction is HOLY BLEEP! THE PROBLEM IS GETTING THEM THERE and as been statted over and over. KEEPING THEM.

[okienonwingfan]

One thing I can think oif and this is in regards to the Series as a whole just not pavement cars is to expand the USAC badge. There are a few of people my geneneration and older, I am 34, who knew what the USAC badge meant. Esp in the Southern states.

[RichC]

Random Observations -

Am I the only one is still finds it amazing that the leadership of a major sanctioning body posts on a public site like this? If nothing else, compared to previous leaderships it's refreshing to see Mr. Miller stand there with his hands on his hips letting everyone kick him in the ding-ding.

All you have to do is read these posts to know that fixing this problem won't come painlessly. Whatever direction is taken, multiple people will be pissed. The current leadership had the balls to tell the SC owners that they now owned $100k turds so I don't think that making the right decision at the expense of pissing people off will be an issue.

USAC and ********/influence. The problems with the pavement series came about much more recently than there have been USAC ********/influence. Removing the ******** would be harder than solving the pavement issue. Spend your energies wisely and just go around the ********.

Outside of European football/soccer fans, I can't think of a group more passionate about their sport than racing people. Perhaps there is something that can be learned from that.

While I don't like seeing fast timers diddle around in heat races knowing they just need to transfer out of the B to get their time back, tinkering with the race format isn't gonna do diddly squat in this current problem. For that matter, dragging out the good old days or mistakes of the past will do less than diddly squat.

Speaking of the past, TV is a pipe dream. WoO almost (and perhaps still might) ran themselves out of money doing time-buys. What exactly would we do differently to turn that around? At best, it's an extremely expensive long term investment to make it something. Looking though these posts I can see that we're obviously very patient people so perhaps taking years to build a TV base is the way to go. Pay-per-view events like the Chili Bowl are the only ones I see having any success in the short term. How do you do that x 30 or so events? Internet TV looks good but is a long ways away. However I this is an area that we should be invested in.

I've always been intrigued by the stadium motocross series. I worked for Yamaha motocross years ago and was part of that circus. I've always wondered why some of the same principles couldn't be applied to some open wheel special events. If you note, they always run monster trucks or something the week before/after the supercross races. They do that because it lowers the cost of converting the stadium. Why not piggyback on that? I acknowledge it would be a hella big risk but you possibly could hit a 11 run home run as well. How many of you can honestly say you've heard of the AMA until Supercross?

One of the problems with the stadium racing idea is manufacturers. We don't have any and they do. The big 3 motorcycle companies poured millions into supercross racing. Interesting thing about the bikes was that the rules are written such that the bikes are not all that much removed from stock. Chassis geometries, materials, etc can't be modified from stock. Yes, the motors and shocks are modified but are based upon stock items. I was surprised that even as they poured millions into the sport, they weren't trying to sneak exotic materials into the bikes. Even if nothing comes of it, studying the supercross series for ideas couldn't hurt.

I agree with the single car for dirt/pavement concept. If you get it right, you still will have room for people to innovate. Crazy thought - You could also consider "penalizing" fast cars with weight like they do in sports car racing to equalize the BMWs vs the Acuras. I'm sure a few people might get a kick out of seeing Bob East turn colors like a chameleon when he's told that the Beasts need to carry 50lbs extra.

I also agree that the car builders shouldn't have too much influence on drawing up the rules. Or you might as well let the prisoners build the prison walls. But you do need people with technical expertise to get it right.

I also agree that USAC rule application has been spotty and/or ill-directed at times. If you go the single car route, you've got to fix the rule application part or it won't work.

While it's really not part of the discussion here, Indiana Sprint Week is one of the most amazing events of any type in this county. Don't f it up.

Paul Gray you have made another very articulate post, very refreshing !!

[cmakin]

Originally Posted by RichC Random Observations - While it's really not part of the discussion here, Indiana Sprint Week is one of the most amazing events of any type in this county. Don't f it up.

Isn't that the truth. Then I would have to go back to spending my vacation on the beach in Mexico. . . .

[Racerrob]

Originally Posted by rocket5612 Rob, One chassis on dirt and pavement is the biggest thing needed to save combination dirt and pavement series'. Now, there are plenty more dirt midgets and sprint cars in this world then there are pavement cars so I would write the rules to benefit the dirt cars. How do you police one chassis on dirt and pavement? You actually write a rule book and enforce it. Merely saying this cannot be policed is an excuse not a reason. The Legend Car series' were successful at this, but they went to the extreme with their rules and created a monopoly for certain parts suppliers, so I would not go that far. Plus their cars are junk and their tires are harder then any tire on the planet so the racing is terrible on dirt. What is the engine plate to rear axle on the typical dirt sprint car or midget? I'll bet this doesn't vary more than 2" from manufacturer to manufacturer on dirt. So, allow 2" to move but thats it. Set a wheelbase limit that isn't 10" from shortest to longest and you have that problem solved. For the midgets I would recommend a low of 71" and a high of 73". This doesn't hurt anyone because all the "big" teams already have dirt cars. Yes, some guys who have strictly pavement cars will have to buy new cars, but it is a small price to pay now to survive in the future. Set the rules so the engine must be on the centerline of the chassis. In the midgets maybe, and this is a big maybe, require the engine sit straight up and down. This is easily done with a motor plate. That isn't much of an investment at all. Also, as I said in my previous post make the same offset rule on dirt and pavement so the same rear axle can be run on both surfaces. Also, one important thing would be a seat height rule so nobody is lowering the driver from dirt to pavement. Also, requiring six pin hubs on the front since they are needed on the high speed pavement tracks is necessary. No "special" car will be needed. All current dirt cars would be legal. USAC is going to have to be the one to make these changes especially in the midget division. All the other midget clubs just follow whatever USAC does so they need to step up and take the reigns to save it. When it comes to sprint cars USAC is not king and we all know that. However, I am sure that when it comes to dirt cars they are not that different manufacturer to manufacturer on the engine plate to rear axle measurements.

I believe that the cure will prove terminal for pavement racing and severely damage dirt racing. You are correct in your assessment that dirt cars engine to rear axle centerline measurements vary about 2”, usually in the 39” to 41” range. Beast pavement car is around 46.5” so all existing Beast cars will be junk (see new generation SC series). I believe the current wheelbase limits are 84” to 90” so that is already in the rules and enforced. Will you set a crankshaft centerline height (minimum and maximum)? I have seen dirt cars with a 7” to a 9” centerline height and I believe the Beast is 6”.

The majority of the cars at the pavement tracks are there because they are chasing National Championship points. These teams will most likely invest in the combo car idea and return next year. There are a few car owners that race ONLY pavement. I don’t believe they will invest in a new car (again see new generation SC car series). Even when USAC brought back the old style SC car the series will take years to recover from the experiment.

By the way, do you remember the reasons why USAC went to the new generation car? There weren’t enough tracks willing to host SC races and they needed a new car to race on the 1.5 mile tracks that have become a NASCAR standard. It was intended to ensure the long term viability of the series. How’s that working out for them? They alienated the majority of the SC owners by making their existing pavement cars obsolete and then alienated the New Generation SC owners by mothballing their investment. The old cars owners are still smarting from the original shot to the groin and have not returned. (our car will probably not race again.

Now as you stated the combo car will need six pin hubs on the front for the high speed pavement tracks so this I am assuming will be a required for the dirt tracks as well since the ultimate goal is to reduce car ownership costs and we don’t want separate running gear for dirt and pavement. So now the locals that run Bloomington, Gas City, Lawrenceburg, Haubstadt, etc. on a weekly basis will be forced to buy six pin hubs and wheels or skip the USAC sanctioned shows. Car counts went down when a HANS was required, many citing the cost to purchase as the reason, but at least this was for a safety device. That being the case, do you believe the locals will gladly fork over $1,000 plus just so they can be USAC legal? Maybe some of the guys in Indiana will indeed make the conversion but what about when we travel to PA or IA? Since we only have 15 to 20 cars that travel USAC will once again become a regional series.

Now the six pin hubs we run on pavement are not stock six pin hubs and spindles. They are special made with extra material in critical places. Do you think the well funded teams will buy multiple sets, lightweight for dirt and heavy duty for pavement? What will your offset rules be? Do you know that we are currently allowed more offset on dirt than pavement? Will we have to run 2 front brakes on dirt as well as pavement? Will we have to run steel rotors or can we run aluminum? If you say 2 front brakes of steel so that they can be used on pavement and dirt you have just lost additional local car support. Otherwise it sounds to me like we will need two sets of front axles, one for dirt and one for pavement.

How about shocks? I guarantee you that what I run on pavement and dirt are light years apart.

Believe it or not, the rear ends are interchangeable now. Our motors are interchangeable now. Someone suggested that you should have the same fuel cell dirt and pavement and enforce the rule with a minimum gallon specification. That’s fine but we probably just lost some more local support.

So if we write the rules to minimize the damage to the dirt series what will I need to do to convert my car from dirt car to pavement?

 Change front axle assembly complete with Hubs, Spindles and Brakes
 Change Front Radius Rods (to maximize advantage under rules)
 Change Shocks to pavement shocks
 Change braking system to account for additional volume of pavement brakes.
 Move motor plate or rear links to take advantage of 2” to axle Centerline allowed in rulebook.
 Move motor plate down to lowest allowed measurement.
 Change driveline due to motor plate/rear links change
 Change tires and wheels
 Change to heavy duty steering gear (dirt steering gears will NOT work at Winchester)
 Change pitman arm and drag link and tie rod to heavy duty for pavement

The above list is off the top of my head. When you look at the amount of increased work for the teams (considerable) and the cost savings (frame and body since almost everything else will be changed) does this really make sense?

Like Duke I have also been around a while. In 1988 I converted a standard Gambler dirt car to run on the pavement utilizing many of the items listed above. We ran 2nd and 3rd at the two races we entered at IRP which were telecast on Thursday Night Thunder. This was Kevin “Pup” Huntley’s 1st and 2nd time ever on pavement. I found out through that experience that it was much easier to build a pavement chassis instead of trying to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear. The result was the Buick V-6 which Rich Vogler drove to the championship in 1989.

I am all about cost savings and the long term viability of the sport on both dirt and pavement. But unless you can demonstrate how the rules could be written to not penalize the USAC or local teams on dirt while allowing safety and cost savings on pavement you are not living in the real world.

Rob Hoffman

So what you are telling me is we should protect the 12 pavement beast sprint cars that are left and just drop pavement from the championship? Either way they are done racing in USAC anyway aren't they? How many dirt cars are there? Plenty more of them then there are pavement cars. I stated in my post some people will have to buy new cars but asking 12(of which most of those 12 I'm sure already have dirt cars) people to change is not asking that much.

Comparing this to the new Silver Crown box is not fair. First off there were plenty more pavement Silver Crown cars then there are pavement Sprint Cars now. That deal should have never happened.

Yes people will change parts from dirt to pavement, but they won't have to have an entirely different car. Depending on how you write the rules you can narrow this down to minimize it. I'm all for setting an engine height rule. Also the differences won't be so vast that it will keep a guy from coming to the track. Right now nobody in their right mind would even attempt to bring a dirt car to a pavement race. Making the suggested changes will narrow the gap so much, in my opinion, that changing all those parts won't matter that much.

When you guys travel to PA and IA do you REALLY get that many locals that run with you? Here are the qualifying results from Mercer, PA. How many of these guys are local guys from PA that took their wings off to run? And look only 20 cars?? Maybe we shouldn't even be talking about making a combo car and start talking about other rules to cut costs to get more then 20 cars when tavelling more than 90 miles outside Indiana.

1. Damion Gardner, 71, DG-16.598; 2. Tracy Hines, 21, Stewart-16.660; 3. Cole Whitt, 67k, Kunz-16.703; 4. Levi Jones, 20, Stewart-16.774; 5. Darren Hagen, 67, Kunz-16.807; 6. Jesse Hockett, 13, VKCC-16.830; 7. Scotty Weir, 5, Baldwin-16.878; 8. Dave Darland, 2B, RWB-16.898; 9. Chris Windom, 17, Windom-16.906; 10. Jerry Coons Jr., 69, Dynamics-16.921; 11. Bud Kaeding, 29, BK-17.011; 12. Brad Sweet, 9, Kahne/Curb-17.053; 13. Andy Priest, 21x, Priest-17.107; 14. Henry Clarke, 67x, Kunz-17.272; 15. Arnie Kent, 18, Kent-17.451; 16. Charlie Holben, 42, Holben-17.591; 17. Scott Bonnell, 3B, Bonnell-17.785; 18. Mike Miller, 57B, Burkey-17.854; 19. Scott Priester, 11, Priester-18.031; 20. Andy Korte, 1J, Triple Crown-18.258.

Originally Posted by Racerrob I believe that the cure will prove terminal for pavement racing and severely damage dirt racing. You are correct in your assessment that dirt cars engine to rear axle centerline measurements vary about 2”, usually in the 39” to 41” range. Beast pavement car is around 46.5” so all existing Beast cars will be junk (see new generation SC series). I believe the current wheelbase limits are 84” to 90” so that is already in the rules and enforced. Will you set a crankshaft centerline height (minimum and maximum)? I have seen dirt cars with a 7” to a 9” centerline height and I believe the Beast is 6”. The majority of the cars at the pavement tracks are there because they are chasing National Championship points. These teams will most likely invest in the combo car idea and return next year. There are a few car owners that race ONLY pavement. I don’t believe they will invest in a new car (again see new generation SC car series). Even when USAC brought back the old style SC car the series will take years to recover from the experiment. By the way, do you remember the reasons why USAC went to the new generation car? There weren’t enough tracks willing to host SC races and they needed a new car to race on the 1.5 mile tracks that have become a NASCAR standard. It was intended to ensure the long term viability of the series. How’s that working out for them? They alienated the majority of the SC owners by making their existing pavement cars obsolete and then alienated the New Generation SC owners by mothballing their investment. The old cars owners are still smarting from the original shot to the groin and have not returned. (our car will probably not race again. Now as you stated the combo car will need six pin hubs on the front for the high speed pavement tracks so this I am assuming will be a required for the dirt tracks as well since the ultimate goal is to reduce car ownership costs and we don’t want separate running gear for dirt and pavement. So now the locals that run Bloomington, Gas City, Lawrenceburg, Haubstadt, etc. on a weekly basis will be forced to buy six pin hubs and wheels or skip the USAC sanctioned shows. Car counts went down when a HANS was required, many citing the cost to purchase as the reason, but at least this was for a safety device. That being the case, do you believe the locals will gladly fork over $1,000 plus just so they can be USAC legal? Maybe some of the guys in Indiana will indeed make the conversion but what about when we travel to PA or IA? Since we only have 15 to 20 cars that travel USAC will once again become a regional series. Now the six pin hubs we run on pavement are not stock six pin hubs and spindles. They are special made with extra material in critical places. Do you think the well funded teams will buy multiple sets, lightweight for dirt and heavy duty for pavement? What will your offset rules be? Do you know that we are currently allowed more offset on dirt than pavement? Will we have to run 2 front brakes on dirt as well as pavement? Will we have to run steel rotors or can we run aluminum? If you say 2 front brakes of steel so that they can be used on pavement and dirt you have just lost additional local car support. Otherwise it sounds to me like we will need two sets of front axles, one for dirt and one for pavement. How about shocks? I guarantee you that what I run on pavement and dirt are light years apart. Believe it or not, the rear ends are interchangeable now. Our motors are interchangeable now. Someone suggested that you should have the same fuel cell dirt and pavement and enforce the rule with a minimum gallon specification. That’s fine but we probably just lost some more local support. So if we write the rules to minimize the damage to the dirt series what will I need to do to convert my car from dirt car to pavement?  Change front axle assembly complete with Hubs, Spindles and Brakes  Change Front Radius Rods (to maximize advantage under rules)  Change Shocks to pavement shocks  Change braking system to account for additional volume of pavement brakes.  Move motor plate or rear links to take advantage of 2” to axle Centerline allowed in rulebook.  Move motor plate down to lowest allowed measurement.  Change driveline due to motor plate/rear links change  Change tires and wheels  Change to heavy duty steering gear (dirt steering gears will NOT work at Winchester)  Change pitman arm and drag link and tie rod to heavy duty for pavement The above list is off the top of my head. When you look at the amount of increased work for the teams (considerable) and the cost savings (frame and body since almost everything else will be changed) does this really make sense? Like Duke I have also been around a while. In 1988 I converted a standard Gambler dirt car to run on the pavement utilizing many of the items listed above. We ran 2nd and 3rd at the two races we entered at IRP which were telecast on Thursday Night Thunder. This was Kevin “Pup” Huntley’s 1st and 2nd time ever on pavement. I found out through that experience that it was much easier to build a pavement chassis instead of trying to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear. The result was the Buick V-6 which Rich Vogler drove to the championship in 1989. I am all about cost savings and the long term viability of the sport on both dirt and pavement. But unless you can demonstrate how the rules could be written to not penalize the USAC or local teams on dirt while allowing safety and cost savings on pavement you are not living in the real world. Rob Hoffman

[Hubie]

I don't know why Rob even bothers to post here, although I am glad he does

It appears to me the only way to have a combo car is if it were to be a spec car.

I don't want a spec car!!!

[LEADERS EDGE]

The problem is not the lack of cars because there are many, many pavement cars sitting in shops. The trick is to make it possible for them to see their way out to the tracks again.

If any discussions USAC has don't include addressing the tire situation, then unless the start money is substationally raised, it isn't worth discussing.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I respect Hoosiers right to make money, but I don't respect how USAC hasn't tried to protect the racers interest. You can take the 20-60 sets of tires that are sold for each race and release them on the track, but if they aren't attached to cars then they are useless. No one in the stands comes to watch the tires, they come for the drivers and then the cars.

I just feel that instead of getting in bed with Hoosier, they need to make sure there isn't another marketing partner out there who can not only provide tires but help promote the sport. Goodyear,Firestone/Bridgestone,Yokohoma etc.... someone with a national campaign that could help market the sport.

By the way....... Kevin; you and I both know that USAC could never push HOSS or AVSS out of the picture unless you used your leverage with Hoosier. Why would a promoter pay the extra money for a USAC wing show when they can get the others much cheaper and why would the cars come out to run wings with a lowered purse?

[Tony Barhorst]

I would like to thank Rob Hoffman for posting here....your posts are really informative on what teams have to deal with.

I would like to thank Kevin Miller for posting here also..I wish you guys the best of luck on making pavement racing better..I love the Winchester, Salem...and even back to New Bremen pavement races..

One thing I have learned from promoting asphalt at the Speedrome...The USAC regional and my Rumbleseries do not hurt each other...In fact..if we work together...we can only lift all car counts when it comes to pavement midgets. We are not a threat to each other..And it is great talking to Don Kenyon and Eric Bunn..

Kalamazoo...it sounds like the racing was great..If it was't so expensive to buy the tires to keep up with the well funded teams..it would be a fine car count..imagine 30 sprinters there....By the way...HOSS/AVSS already have these better tire rules, and their shows are great.

I will also tell you..that most of the controversial posters here...LOVE THE SPORT (as we all do)...plus..they spice this site up.

Thanks Duke for caring about racing.

Now after business is taken care of...lets have some fun at the races!