[TQ29m]

That's where the old saying came from, real race cars don't have starters, I live in town, but that doesn't/didn't keep me from starting it, the alley by my shop took care of that, plus, you don't start them that often, adjusting valves is done cold, I know a lot of folks that dump the oil at the track, in a proper container of course, a lot of related things can be done before leaving, you usually know where the next race is, while you got all the help assembled might as well get some of it done while it's fresh on your mind, just another way to get things done. Bob

[ChanceDHolley]

We only started the car away from the track once last year, to shake down and check the timing before the first race.

[zerospeed]

Originally Posted by davidm Crates sprints are still better than no Sprints.

I'm with this guy.... My 410's aren't cheap to keep happy, I'd love to see an economical break and some innovation. There are plenty of snobby rich kids in the pits who are quick to spout off "this is sprint car racing", but most of them don't pay the bills. All of sprint car racing could study the rise and fall of pavement winged sprints up in Indiana, Ohio, Michigan etc. Costs got out of control for a local/regional deal, wanna-be big timer egos never got checked; poof a 10 car field is common.

Say what you want about tire costs being the killer but I'm saving a TON of money putting together two dirt wingless 410 cars for this year over the winged stuff. I'm going from my GB2000 being "ok" and making it 12-15 nights to that GB2000 being a once in a while engine and my -12 being my weekly piece and it'll go a certain 30 nights without any bad luck.

Imagine how much better sprint and midget racing could be if we reeled in the engine costs, I'm all for an innovative sealed/crate option. 500hp isn't going to set the standard in usac or anything but there are certainly options to talk about, roll that train and when a good option comes along I'll jump right on the crate bandwagon.

[darnall]

You guys are making this more difficult and way more discouraging than it needs to be....

First of all... at any stock car weekly track in a warm climate area (where the tracks frequently harden up and gloss over early) ANY form of sprint car with any V-8 is going to be faster than any existing class of late models or IMCA type modifieds...especially in the OPs area where the super lates have gone away. And if you start looking you will find documented evidence (track records and such) that start making you understand that even on some of the biggest fastest tracks in the country 305 and crate sprints are as fast or faster than top level super late models... clearly not because of brute power....The combination of a quicker reacting suspension, 15 inch shorter wheelbase, 3 times the rear rubber contact patch and a weight difference of 600-800 pounds can make up a huge horsepower disadvantage.


Now, once we all agree that we are going to help the OP stick to his guns and start NONWING economy sprint racing in an area with no open wheel cars let me once again preach something I have believed for many years....

There is absolutely no good reason to commit to one and only one required engine package... the best thing a strict noninclusive rule package will do in fender country is stunt the growth of sprintcar racing, but most likely will kill it before it starts..look at whats available and try to include as much of it as possible. If we all agree that this startup group has no business being on half mile tracks due to both economics and the lack of openwheel experience, and we are set in stone against wings, here's what we do....

We gather up every set of 305 sprint rules since the dawn of 305s (Ohio started it in the early 90s, Missouri got going in the late 90s then they popped up everywhere) , add in every variation of 602/604 crate engine rules ever, pick one of the choked down 525 tunes, add Speedway Motors low cost FORD "CrateBuster" complete engine for the blue oval diehards, add the Ohio local option Spec Schwanke 327 with stock chevy truck ignition/injection,... maybe toss the knoxville 305 rules in the trashcan... and say "We want all y'all to come party!!!"

Even with wings, time and time again we have seen different options being allowed to come race with a group on a trial basis, or a startup racesaver region allow non compliant engines to compete the first year, or a guy take his mild 305 to a race with more liberal rules, etc etc and when the experiment is over we see that for as different as they are they're still pretty much the same.

Without the wings, on tracks 3/8 and smaller, I would bet my left nad that out of 20 potential different engines not a one would have any sort of visible or measurable advantage...at all. In 2013 I raced all season in open comp non wing sprints in MO in a borrowed car that was left over from and still 100% legal to the original 305 local rules...stock unported steel OEM GM 305 heads, 555 max lift flat tappet cam, holley 4barrel, HEI distributor, self starting by way of having a battery, flexplate and conventional starter but no clutch or tranny and easily hit 1650-1675 on the scales. The cars around here were a blend of every engine you could imagine including all aluminum 410 motors that were only a year or 2 removed from being the hottest package on the WOO tour. There was absolutely nothing I could do to hang on starts and restarts but once we got to turn 1 i was as fast or faster than any of that awesome equipment. At my weekly track I unloaded every Friday night knowing that if made the right decisions I could win, and on the nights I didn't win I drove home dwelling on the mistake I made on the track or in the toolbox that kept me from winning. Had everybody been using some sort of 305 or crate motor I would have felt 10 feet tall and bulletproof even knowing I was still probably 75 horses light and 50-100 pounds heavy.

For all your locals who already own some version of a crate motor and want to keep it all they need to do is drop it in a used roller... Panchos in PA most always has at least one "mechanics special" used roller in the 2500-3000 price range. It will be an older frame, not obsolete just experienced, with some older/heavier components that are not at all appealing to the people who can afford to buy the newest latest greatest lightest and continually rebuild or replace it. You don't even HAVE to fool with adapting the cam to drive typical sprintcar inside the c0ckp1t pumps. All the pumps can hang on the front of the motor and be belt driven like they are in most fendered cars. For the people looking for a turnkey car..starting in Memphis and working north-northwest through Kansas or Illinois there are over 100 used 305 cars that are pretty stinkin cheap since the engines aren't racesaver legal and everybodys switching to racesaver rules. These cars will either have steel GM 305 heads or whichever Dart or World Products steel heads were mandated by their home track/series but otherwise they will be pretty similar. The average asking price for most of this equipment has nearly been cut in half the last 6-8 years with the growth of the racesaver package. Or your guys can close their eyes, throw a dart at a map, and find a racesaver region with equipment for sale pretty close to that dart.

As for the pushtruck fear...again, that's easy to solve... sure a guy could spend 7 grand on a utility 4wheeler..or he could spend 1200 on a used one. Or he could borrow the one his father-in-law only uses the week he goes deer hunting each fall...or he could convince his goofball neighbor with the jeep/bronco/geotracker mud toy to come "help" at the dirt track each week...or if you have the type of wife wont let you talk to the guys anymore you just make her come to the races, make her dolly the trailer, unhook the pickup, and sit in the driver seat all night pushing your car where it needs to go...and every time she starts to complain you say "If I ever got to hang out with my old buddy Mark anymore I know hed be here doing this for me. And if you are the stubborn self sufficient DIY extremist type and hate every suggestion for how to get a pusher to help..or a guy who likes driving you car to staging so everybody can watch you idle by all cool and chill.. you just need to use any legal motor combo with a carb and distributor, put a battery under your seat, a flexplate on the crank, and a starter on the lower right side of the block. lock that dude in gear, push the button to make the starter propel the car 10 feet or so then flip the switch, feather the throttle and roll away all on your own.

You have the perfect situation to start with...

No other competing open wheel division to "fragment" as mentioned above. BTW...how in the heck can you fragment something that doesn't even exist where you are, and how could someone who wants to bring together 20 different economy engine packages to race together be accused of fragmenting anyway... I would have to call that "building"

A local saturation of various crate motors and guys sick of maintaining or politicing late models.

A nationwide saturation of racesaver 305 cars, some of which are a reasonable driving distance from your area.

A nationwide saturation of non racesaver 305s selling for pennies on the dollar.

No local drivers or fans who are so spoiled by plentiful 410 racing locally that they constantly talk crap about any sort of sprintcar with less than 399 cubes. Too bad we can't put those guys in a time machine, send em to Terre Haute or Knoxville in the 1960s- 70s and let em go face to face with Foyt, Andretti, Hurtubise, a couple Unsers, Larson, Bigelow, Gaines, Bob Kinser and all the boys and explain how any wussy could drive that dumbed down, skinny tired, 260-310 cubic inched sorry excuse for a sprintcar.

And best of all...not one good reason to try to pick one specific engine package and stick with it and only it.

Find another couple of trustworthy guys who can get as fired up as you and get to work recruiting. I can assure you there are more people there than you realize who are mesmerized by sprintcars..they're just scared to say it out loud and be singled out from the mob..haha

And don't give a second glance to any of the comments here telling you that it can't be done, or isn't worth doing or troll troll troll. And don't get spooked by any detail that appears to be a problem. Rest assured that somebody before you has seen the same roadblocks and found a nice smooth way to get through em.

It really excites me to see how well something like this can get going.. my buzzwords are openwheel, wingless and affordable and you are getting to start with one of the cleanest slates ever.....good luck and don't give up

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by darnall You guys are making this more difficult and way more discouraging than it needs to be.... First of all... at any stock car weekly track in a warm climate area (where the tracks frequently harden up and gloss over early) ANY form of sprint car with any V-8 is going to be faster than any existing class of late models or IMCA type modifieds...especially in the OPs area where the super lates have gone away. And if you start looking you will find documented evidence (track records and such) that start making you understand that even on some of the biggest fastest tracks in the country 305 and crate sprints are as fast or faster than top level super late models... clearly not because of brute power....The combination of a quicker reacting suspension, 15 inch shorter wheelbase, 3 times the rear rubber contact patch and a weight difference of 600-800 pounds can make up a huge horsepower disadvantage. Now, once we all agree that we are going to help the OP stick to his guns and start NONWING economy sprint racing in an area with no open wheel cars let me once again preach something I have believed for many years.... There is absolutely no good reason to commit to one and only one required engine package... the best thing a strict noninclusive rule package will do in fender country is stunt the growth of sprintcar racing, but most likely will kill it before it starts..look at whats available and try to include as much of it as possible. If we all agree that this startup group has no business being on half mile tracks due to both economics and the lack of openwheel experience, and we are set in stone against wings, here's what we do.... We gather up every set of 305 sprint rules since the dawn of 305s (Ohio started it in the early 90s, Missouri got going in the late 90s then they popped up everywhere) , add in every variation of 602/604 crate engine rules ever, pick one of the choked down 525 tunes, add Speedway Motors low cost FORD "CrateBuster" complete engine for the blue oval diehards, add the Ohio local option Spec Schwanke 327 with stock chevy truck ignition/injection,... maybe toss the knoxville 305 rules in the trashcan... and say "We want all y'all to come party!!!" Even with wings, time and time again we have seen different options being allowed to come race with a group on a trial basis, or a startup racesaver region allow non compliant engines to compete the first year, or a guy take his mild 305 to a race with more liberal rules, etc etc and when the experiment is over we see that for as different as they are they're still pretty much the same. Without the wings, on tracks 3/8 and smaller, I would bet my left nad that out of 20 potential different engines not a one would have any sort of visible or measurable advantage...at all. In 2013 I raced all season in open comp non wing sprints in MO in a borrowed car that was left over from and still 100% legal to the original 305 local rules...stock unported steel OEM GM 305 heads, 555 max lift flat tappet cam, holley 4barrel, HEI distributor, self starting by way of having a battery, flexplate and conventional starter but no clutch or tranny and easily hit 1650-1675 on the scales. The cars around here were a blend of every engine you could imagine including all aluminum 410 motors that were only a year or 2 removed from being the hottest package on the WOO tour. There was absolutely nothing I could do to hang on starts and restarts but once we got to turn 1 i was as fast or faster than any of that awesome equipment. At my weekly track I unloaded every Friday night knowing that if made the right decisions I could win, and on the nights I didn't win I drove home dwelling on the mistake I made on the track or in the toolbox that kept me from winning. Had everybody been using some sort of 305 or crate motor I would have felt 10 feet tall and bulletproof even knowing I was still probably 75 horses light and 50-100 pounds heavy. For all your locals who already own some version of a crate motor and want to keep it all they need to do is drop it in a used roller... Panchos in PA most always has at least one "mechanics special" used roller in the 2500-3000 price range. It will be an older frame, not obsolete just experienced, with some older/heavier components that are not at all appealing to the people who can afford to buy the newest latest greatest lightest and continually rebuild or replace it. You don't even HAVE to fool with adapting the cam to drive typical sprintcar inside the c0ckp1t pumps. All the pumps can hang on the front of the motor and be belt driven like they are in most fendered cars. For the people looking for a turnkey car..starting in Memphis and working north-northwest through Kansas or Illinois there are over 100 used 305 cars that are pretty stinkin cheap since the engines aren't racesaver legal and everybodys switching to racesaver rules. These cars will either have steel GM 305 heads or whichever Dart or World Products steel heads were mandated by their home track/series but otherwise they will be pretty similar. The average asking price for most of this equipment has nearly been cut in half the last 6-8 years with the growth of the racesaver package. Or your guys can close their eyes, throw a dart at a map, and find a racesaver region with equipment for sale pretty close to that dart. As for the pushtruck fear...again, that's easy to solve... sure a guy could spend 7 grand on a utility 4wheeler..or he could spend 1200 on a used one. Or he could borrow the one his father-in-law only uses the week he goes deer hunting each fall...or he could convince his goofball neighbor with the jeep/bronco/geotracker mud toy to come "help" at the dirt track each week...or if you have the type of wife wont let you talk to the guys anymore you just make her come to the races, make her dolly the trailer, unhook the pickup, and sit in the driver seat all night pushing your car where it needs to go...and every time she starts to complain you say "If I ever got to hang out with my old buddy Mark anymore I know hed be here doing this for me. And if you are the stubborn self sufficient DIY extremist type and hate every suggestion for how to get a pusher to help..or a guy who likes driving you car to staging so everybody can watch you idle by all cool and chill.. you just need to use any legal motor combo with a carb and distributor, put a battery under your seat, a flexplate on the crank, and a starter on the lower right side of the block. lock that dude in gear, push the button to make the starter propel the car 10 feet or so then flip the switch, feather the throttle and roll away all on your own. You have the perfect situation to start with... No other competing open wheel division to "fragment" as mentioned above. BTW...how in the heck can you fragment something that doesn't even exist where you are, and how could someone who wants to bring together 20 different economy engine packages to race together be accused of fragmenting anyway... I would have to call that "building" A local saturation of various crate motors and guys sick of maintaining or politicing late models. A nationwide saturation of racesaver 305 cars, some of which are a reasonable driving distance from your area. A nationwide saturation of non racesaver 305s selling for pennies on the dollar. No local drivers or fans who are so spoiled by plentiful 410 racing locally that they constantly talk crap about any sort of sprintcar with less than 399 cubes. Too bad we can't put those guys in a time machine, send em to Terre Haute or Knoxville in the 1960s- 70s and let em go face to face with Foyt, Andretti, Hurtubise, a couple Unsers, Larson, Bigelow, Gaines, Bob Kinser and all the boys and explain how any wussy could drive that dumbed down, skinny tired, 260-310 cubic inched sorry excuse for a sprintcar. And best of all...not one good reason to try to pick one specific engine package and stick with it and only it. Find another couple of trustworthy guys who can get as fired up as you and get to work recruiting. I can assure you there are more people there than you realize who are mesmerized by sprintcars..they're just scared to say it out loud and be singled out from the mob..haha And don't give a second glance to any of the comments here telling you that it can't be done, or isn't worth doing or troll troll troll. And don't get spooked by any detail that appears to be a problem. Rest assured that somebody before you has seen the same roadblocks and found a nice smooth way to get through em. It really excites me to see how well something like this can get going.. my buzzwords are openwheel, wingless and affordable and you are getting to start with one of the cleanest slates ever.....good luck and don't give up

Thank you Mr Darnall, I was starting to get discouraged a bit, especially when I finally found out the actual price for the trans/starter deal last night, its not on the Bert site that I could ever find but I did finally find it elsewhere, $3600 or there abouts... Ouch. Ok, I'm ready to "Deep Six" the trans/starter idea, but your simple adaptation of a flexplate/starter that can start the car sounds like a perfect compromise and your engine ideas are exciting. I was on the Eagle website and they had some awesome deals on used frames w/bodies, but I haven't come across too many rollers yet.

[oldfan49]

They used the flexplate / starter when the 305's started in Missouri. They are almost all gone and just use 4 wheelers or track vehicles to start them at the track or at the shop

[Aces&Eights]

I was watching vids late last night on youtube and came across some non-wing sprint racing in Australia, this particular class runs V6's and starters and they said it was the most populated class along with legend cars, that race on dirt down under. Not sure if its a rule, but at least a few had starters. Seeing more alternatives and reading Mr. Darnall's post on not focusing on one set of engine rules to kick things off, is sounding more and more doable.