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10/30/13, 8:58 AM   #31
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
Bradleyracing86
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Where is clay located?
 
10/30/13, 9:02 AM   #32
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
Quantrill
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Flora Il..... More on this later.
 
10/30/13, 9:33 AM   #33
PatrickMead#13
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I'm sure its been brought up before but why not just put a horsepower limit out there. Who cares what you do to motor if you are limited to say, 200hp. If in doubt, throw em' on the dyno is what one race series does and it works fairly well. Just a thought.
 
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10/30/13, 10:18 AM   #34
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
DAD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickMead#13 View Post
I'm sure its been brought up before but why not just put a horsepower limit out there. Who cares what you do to motor if you are limited to say, 200hp. If in doubt, throw em' on the dyno is what one race series does and it works fairly well. Just a thought.
Dyno's are kidna of expensive. I think AMA does this in their stock class motorcycles. With the AMA Dyno companys fight over the right to furnish the Dyno and usually the company that pays the most to AMA gets the job. Then all the race teams have to go out and buy one of the new Dynos to prep for the next race. That would put the job of winning back in the set up man and drivers hands however.

Did you see where I think "Smoke" had to be dynoed by NASCAR and a nut or something somehow got stuck to the bottom of the throttle peddle and it wouldn't go down all the way.

The old "IROC" idea made for some pretty good racing, and it worked out kinda of strange about the guys winning the races. How could a guy like Steve Kinser beat them NASCAR guys on their own race tracks, he sure did?

You might work out a head swap program. After a racer won so many races they would be required to change heads with another racer in the group with the same type motor. Labor to be payed by the group?

Seven pages 17000 hits and we still can't even resolve a simple tire rule at Bloomington.

Honest Dad himself
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Last edited by DAD; 10/30/13 at 10:27 AM.
 
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10/30/13, 8:20 PM   #35
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
jmo8
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The old "IROC" idea made for some pretty good racing, and it worked out kinda of strange about the guys winning the races. How could a guy like Steve Kinser beat them NASCAR guys on their own race tracks, he sure did?

Sorry Dad, I didn't recall Kinser having much success in any form of a stock car racing. So I was compelled to do some fact checking. Steve Kinser raced 27 IROC events over a seven year span. He averaged 8.2 out of 12 possible starting positions in that time. He had 3 top fives, which included his ONE and only win at Talladega in 1994, he led 25 of the 38 laps. Sounds to me like he drew right car that day.

Additionally unimpressive, his NASCAR career consisted of 2 DNQ's in 1993 and 5 races in 1995 where he averaged a 35.2 place finish with 2 additional DNQ's.

Now everyone can go back to arguing about weight limits and tires ... just kidding. I commend everyone involved in trying to do what's best for the mini/lightning series to secure future success and growth. Good luck with the meeting, I will be looking forward to hearing the outcome.
 
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10/30/13, 11:05 PM   #36
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
DAD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmo8 View Post
The old "IROC" idea made for some pretty good racing, and it worked out kinda of strange about the guys winning the races. How could a guy like Steve Kinser beat them NASCAR guys on their own race tracks, he sure did?

Sorry Dad, I didn't recall Kinser having much success in any form of a stock car racing. So I was compelled to do some fact checking. Steve Kinser raced 27 IROC events over a seven year span. He averaged 8.2 out of 12 possible starting positions in that time. He had 3 top fives, which included his ONE and only win at Talladega in 1994, he led 25 of the 38 laps. Sounds to me like he drew right car that day.

Additionally unimpressive, his NASCAR career consisted of 2 DNQ's in 1993 and 5 races in 1995 where he averaged a 35.2 place finish with 2 additional DNQ's.

Now everyone can go back to arguing about weight limits and tires ... just kidding. I commend everyone involved in trying to do what's best for the mini/lightning series to secure future success and growth. Good luck with the meeting, I will be looking forward to hearing the outcome.
Talladega isn't that one of them little bull ring dirt tracks. That was in 1994, boy time flies. My point was they worked awfully hard to make those cars equal to one another and the best driver was suppose to win. I know that equal will never exist but they were on the cutting edge of equal at the time. Like going to the rental go-kart track, If you watch them several sessions you know the kart you want.

My point would be: People starting out in racing put to much concern in motor horsepower especially when the cars are racing on dirt. They may even spend large sums of money on motors and motor go fast trick parts like injectors air filters even rods and pistons when what they really want and need is a more tractable motor that they can control. If I was selling air boxes that would be my selling point.

The Kawasaki zx10r motors from 04 up are bears. We have run them since I think 04 or 05. The 04 motor had all kinds of horsepower but it came on so quick (cammy) on a slick track the driver just could not stay on top of it. In 08 they had redesigned a few things that made the motor much easier to drive thus even down a few HP from the 04 motor it was still faster in the race.

If one wanted to handicap these race cars to make them all equal, since they can't outlaw good drivers the way to do it would be with tires and or weight.

When a driver start out racing on dirt it feels kinda of cool to be buzzing the rear tires and backing the car into the turns. They think they are flying, when they get beat by another car they naturally think that that guy must be buzzing his tires even more then they are and backing his car into the turns really really hard.

This is the "SECRET" guys. That big old guy in what you think is a cheater motor car is keeping the car straight, getting a good bight on the dirt surface and accelerating no faster than the tire can keep up with the track conditions. I like to call it "Shuman Traction Control" named after Ron and Casey Shuman two of the very best throttle men out there.

Them big old boys overcome "inertia". The only time inertia should matter is the drag race on the first lap between the starter flag and number one turn. The good driver make it happen with that physics term known as "momentum">>>In these things you can't be starting and stopping them for every turn, that would take lots of horsepower and that stuff is expensive and you can't find much more of that stuff left in these motors.. The fastest guy in the center of the turn will also be the fastest guy at the end of the straight. Sounds easy doesn't it, the trick is doing it as fast or just a little faster than the other driver does, that is what we call staying on top of things.

That is how them big old boys over here in Indiana win races.

Honest Dad himself
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Last edited by DAD; 10/31/13 at 10:57 AM.
 
10/30/13, 11:49 PM   #37
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
mscs20
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The early generation of mini sprints around 1980 utilized a lot of snowmobile engines. Looking on ebay, there are countless engines available for under $2000......many under $1000. I race my sprint car weekly, but I wanted to build a car to run with the Storm Racing Series....and maybe catch a Montpeliar race, but was met with so much opposition when I mentioned using a Ski Doo, that I scrapped the idea for now.
Limiting choices, and innovators, choke racing. Look at how it has effected Indy Car.....and nascar even.
I do hope the rules meeting is productive. There are only so many of these cars nationwide, common ground needs to be found so everyone can race together when they have the opportunity.
 
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10/31/13, 12:02 AM   #38
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
DAD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mscs20 View Post
The early generation of mini sprints around 1980 utilized a lot of snowmobile engines. Looking on ebay, there are countless engines available for under $2000......many under $1000. I race my sprint car weekly, but I wanted to build a car to run with the Storm Racing Series....and maybe catch a Montpeliar race, but was met with so much opposition when I mentioned using a Ski Doo, that I scrapped the idea for now.
Limiting choices, and innovators, choke racing. Look at how it has effected Indy Car.....and nascar even.
I do hope the rules meeting is productive. There are only so many of these cars nationwide, common ground needs to be found so everyone can race together when they have the opportunity.


There will always be "the motor to have", many of the new snowmobile use a motor similar to the 1000cc we race with today minus the tranny. The guys up in Montpelier are on to something, I would like to run the Southern Indiana franchise.

One thousand cc cars and midgets race real well together on smaller tracks. I think the 1400cc bike motors with their slightly more torque but slightly down on Horse Power would do real well racing with older midgets.

Honest Dad himself
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Last edited by DAD; 10/31/13 at 12:13 AM.
 
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10/31/13, 12:51 AM   #39
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
DAD
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Just keep throwing stuff against the wall and see what sticks. Years ago when we raced 600cc cars at "Wonder Valley" a guy named Henery Hall took the track over. He being a TQ man at heart decided to allow only left rear tires for the rear wheels. I though that this was really stupid, We did not get along to well and we were soon banished to racing with the guys in Ohio and the Buckeye Mini Sprints.

Looking back on things maybe old Henery might not have been too far off base.

What makes the UMP modified so popular? I would probably have to think the same things that urkes Mini Sprinters setting in the warm up shut waiting for them to finish their main event one lap at a time. Yeh it's them darned skinny arss rear tires. They are governed by the tire and the ability of the driver to stay on top of things. Most of them don't and somebody spins out every lap. In the 90's a 78" was as large left as they made now it's 80 inches, but it's only has a 10" tread.

If the right rear was limited to 80 inches with a 10" tread we could give a midget one he1l of a race.

About 10 years ago some old guy up in Ohio had a special midget race, and he included 600cc mini sprints as being a midget. The midgets were limited to 10 inch tread and the 600cc cars were allowed to run the 12 inch tread. The winner of his race was Lynn Ambrose in a ERC 600 cc upright mini sprint.

By changing the right rear tire size to 80" x 10" we might be able to include midgets in the race format. It would probably make the older mini sprints and motors more competitive also. If you want more cars you got to make racing more competitive, I don't think speed will increase the car count, being faster than another class will not entice more people to race with us but if a racer thinks he has a chance with his 10 year old car that could increase the car count.

(Also TQ secret) they have a lot of race cars, because I guess the old cars never die. A lot of Tq drivers are racing cars that are older than they are, and I know a few cars that might even be older than their dads are.

When a guy walks through the pits and sees all the super trick $18,000,00 race cars setting there "to hell with the motors" he's going to say this stuff ain't for me. But when he see's a guy go out with a plain looking old sh1t box and beats them guys he says well maybe we could afford to go racing after all.

It is possible to race a dirt open wheel Midget size car and win without selling the farm, and 1000cc mini sprints is the class you can do it in. I probably have less money invested in my car and motor than a lot of open wheel modified racers have in their engine alone.

ASK YOURSELF>>>>>>>> WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO TO MAKE THIS CLASS MORE COMPETITIVE BOTH FOR LOW BUDGET AND HIGH BUDGET RACERS ALIKE??? We are close already.

Honest Dad himself
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Last edited by DAD; 10/31/13 at 9:46 AM.
 
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10/31/13, 12:16 PM   #40
Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
openwheel44
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I think most knowledgeable racers agree.........on small slick tracks, the motor is not as important compared to driver skills and setup. That was all well and good when most of our tracks were 1/6th miles and small quarters that slicked off big time. Don't know about other areas but in my area......tracks are much bigger that we are running on. Big quarters up to 3/8's. Plus the promoters are tending to keep them a little wetter simply to try to keep the dust down and OFF the spectators. Hmmmmm......guess what? That's when the "built" motors started becoming apparent. Racers realized they could definitely use more horsepower. Most of us are now racing on tracks that can suck the HP right out of your car. That extra 10-20 HP started to show up more and more. then the HP war started for some. Hard tire or not..........tacky or even just big tracks let the built motors breathe. Plus on the bigger and faster tracks, there is no short supply of drivers willing to "mat it" the entire race using all the available HP. Hence....... our dilemma started. No.......we can't outlaw the really good drivers, we probably can't dictate the track size we get to run on but we sure as hell can try to get the new guy and the seasoned veteran on a level playing field motor wise.

When I raced full midgets and they went to a tire rule..........all I saw was a lot of "fresh, green" rubber going on the right rear about everytime the front runners hit the track other than practice. Tire bills started to climb dramatically. Plus.....some had "figured" out a way to run tires that were "mis-stamped." The next problem and evidently one still on going.............tire soaking. Something that is extremely hard to tech at the track. The Go Kart guys are light years ahead of us on this one. I don't know what the answer is to the tire situation. That is why I am anxious to hear what others think from each of the Midwest groups. There is a solution....we just need to find it. And find one that doesn't cost the racer more in the long run.

I'm not fighting a weight rule. I just think you need to come up with one that doesn't take you to the point of diminishing returns. Like I said........seems most of the involved groups have arrived at a minimum weight they are comfortable with. One that has kept their area racing competitive. I don't see any of them over 1000# unless you are running a motor bigger than 1000cc. We just need to find that compromise all parties can live with. Right now.......they don't appear to be that far apart.

I see a dwarf car class formulating a rules package that is debating implementing a motor rule of no motor newer than 08. Not sure this is the answer due to availability but it shows others are having the same concerns. But as new motors become available, at whatever rate, the demand for the older motors will subside. Again.........probably not the answer but it is an interesting way to approach the issue of the high horsepowered newer motors. Before you start "flaming" on me.......I didn't say I support this approach.

Don't know about the UMP Modified you are referring to but I think they are similar to our A Mods back here. If they are like our class with the same "skinny" tire.........they are killing themselves off with run away motor prices. Seems the racers are out smarting that "skinny" tire with elaborate suspension systems and driveline tricks. The more HP they can make....the closer to the front they get. To Hell with that "skinny" tire. Now.......we have the B Mod class that has stricter motor rules. It is flourishing by comparison. Go figure?

We can debate and yack on and on. I just hope the smart people we have invited to this meeting can come up with a few basic rules that are track techable on this first attempt to unify this class. If we can come up with a rules package that can be used on "National" style events.........it's still a success. We have to start somewhere.
 
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