[TQ29m]

Let me add a couple items that may have been overlooked. Yes, adding more oil to your current sump, would not be wise, keeping it at the full mark certainly couldn't hurt, but adding capacity would help, moving the pickup to the right side of the sump would be a real good thing to do, that would also be a good place to add capacity, you could add "cheeks" to the oil sump to add capacity. Baffleing the oil to that area of course would help a bunch. And, yes a dry sump system needs venting, because the pump actually pumps more air than it does oil, on the return side, most pumps are at least 2 stage, one side pumps oil from the reserve tank, thru the engine, out the brgs, and is collected in a sump that the return side of the pump picks up, and returns to the oil tank. This sump area is very small, and located where it is in the best location to catch the most oil. Again, being vented in the righ location is critical, as the wrong location will allow it to vent oil directly out of the engine, and that isn't good! I use a 7qt tank, that is vented to the engine, so it can relieve both the engine and the tank, then another hose goes from the engine to a catch can, to finish the atmospheric venting. The 2 stage pump is from a CB750 SOHC Honda, with an added distribution block that I fabricate, that also includes an adjustable bypass, to regulate the oil pressure. These old pumps are plentyful, and do a very good job in this application. You can also buy pumps with more stages, so you can access oil that gets trapped, and doesn't return to the sump, we used to use the Honda pumps in tandem, on certain Kaw, and Suzies to help get the trapped oil back the sump. Thanks! Bob

[openwheel44]

I have raced cars with dry sumps so I am "kinda" familiar with the process but your information is really helpful to all of us.

The way I see it...........we have a motor that has certain sized oil galleys and should have certain sized clearances throughout to permit oil flow and maintain a specific desired oil pressure. The manufacturer has designed a system to support his motor requirements. Using any of the motors I have been running in this class........I usually have an oil pressure of around 55-60 psi at racing RPMs and racing temperature. I was told by my midget motor and sprint car motor people some time back to not exceed 75 psi of oil pressure. Anything about that was not good for the system for various reasons. I am assuming since all these bike motors I have ran across usually run about the same 60 psi at temp/rpm, that should be the best all around setting. ??? I have maximized my oil capacity with the current Rosson pan. I fudge it to 6 quarts knowing the oil is "hanging" all around the motor at anything above 3000 rpm. I know this by watching the sight glass as mentioned before. So.......sounds like a typical dry sump would have around 7 quarts for a motor this size? I am not that far off with oil capacity possibly. I have maximized my pickup design so I am confident oil is getting to the oil pump as required and there is next to NO cavitation or aeration if any at all. My question.........how is a dry sump going to make my oil system any better? Increased oil pressure is not the answer if I have been informed right. It still relies on oil getting from the best scavenging point(s). The only thing that really concerns me at this point is that clutch basket spinning and the oil sloshing up against it from lateral G forces. I am going to try some more simple baffle work to try to divert the oil from it if I get a chance.

Not trying to be adversarial......I am just trying to figure out what I can do to improve my system short of going to a dry sump. To be honest.........oil or no oil............I am now wondering if the internal components will become the weak link.......Rods and bearings. Time will tell. Thanks for your information TQ29m.

[Cadpro18]

My system uses a 2-stage scavenge pump that picks up from a 1/4" plate that replaces the pan. I vent the motor directly to the tank. The tank is an internally vented midget tank (w/-10 fittings). There is no other venting in the system. If the vent line from the motor allows oil to return to the tank without having to make its way to the pump, all the better. The pressure side of the system uses the stock pressure pump, in the stock location, at the same pressure as stock, but is fed by the tank. I use 6qts and the oil temp runs 210 without a cooler, water runs 195.

The benefit of a drysump system is a constant supply on non-aerated oil to the oil pump. Motorcycles have different forces acting in a corner that assist the return of oil to the pan. Drysump systems increase reliability and longevity in a 4-wheel application by allowing the oiling system to perform as it does in a bike.

The builder of my system sees a 1-2 HP increase over a wetsump on the dyno, so there should not be an argument over an unfair advantage.

[TQ29m]

Here's another view of a dry sump system, at any given time, there is probably not more then a quart of oil in the engine, in fact, if you drain the sump, after you come off the track, in my case anyway, I will only drain about 2/3 of a quart out, the rest is still in the oil gallies, and just clinging to the insides of the engine, so that eliminates the biggest amount of oil that can be in suspension. The catch can merely serves to catch what oil is in the mist that is created, and also catches the unburned alcohol vapors, in my case, after a night of racing, I drain the can, and it'll be about half a Jiffy peanut butter jar, with about an inch and a half of oil, and maybe a quarter inch of a mixture of alky and water mix on top, the water coming from the alky condensing. Most of the newer bike motors that I've been into, all have about the same pressure regulater in them, that are simply spring regulated at around 50-60 psi, and when they open, they just dump the excess oil into the sump, in my dry sump system it is bypassed into the line that goes back to the tank, so same diff. I go back a few years in bikes, and most if not all of them were dry sump, with the exception of the "old" motors, which were total loss, the oil merely drained from a tank, thru the engine, and out on the guys behind you! I had a 1937 Indian Chief, 80 cu in, and it had roller lifters, and dry sump. Wish I had that one back! Bob

[openwheel44]

Thanks guys for the info. "Total loss systems" make me remember the old Speedway Bikes I had a chance to ride a couple of times that had the Jawa motors in them......total loss also. All that dripping oil helped keep the dust down on the race track. LOL

[TQ29m]

One other thing, that oil tank provides a place for the oil to de-aeriate, where in a wet sump system, it really doesn't have that opportunity, it is subjected to all the turbulence generated in the cranckase. I once saw a V8 60 midget motor, that had been installed upside down, and dry sumped, that was years ago, and it worked surprisingly well, course most airplane engines were running upside down, and dry sumped, so why not? Good luck! Bob

[HRPCHASSIS]

I would like to share my opinion on the Dry Sump system and rules in general. Below I have copied information I emailed to many organizations, a reply I received, and my response. I am thankful to WRP for your reply and for racing Mini Sprints!

Gentlemen,
Please find attached the comparison of the stock oil system vs the dry sump oil system. This was done on the same engine in the same car on the same dyno. Take note at the top of each page the Hyper dyno test # and date of test is noted. As you will see the dry sump in fact takes a couple HP to run the 2 stage scavenge sections vs the stock water pump. Not to mention the additional weight of the system. I hope this will put to rest the bazaar thoughts that a dry sump somehow creates a negative pressure in the crank case thus increasing HP! I have not designed, built, or advertised this system to be a HP advantage. This system is to fix the oil related problems with the ZX10 especially, but can easily be adapted to any engine. This turn-key system is currently priced at $1495. I am hopeful that with acceptance and volume manufacturing to get the price down considerably. The fact that these ZX10 engines are plentiful and can be bought at $800 less than the GSXR make the turn-key engine package very competitive.

Rick Hench


Rick,
Thanks for the days share. We do not have a single car using dry sump at our facility and since nobody is currently using it and our racers don't want to spend more money we decided to not allow dry sump systems. There is no current need for them at WRP and after each race season we can re-evaluate the rules. So there is a possibility that we could reverse that in 2015 but in 2014 there will be no dry sumps at WRP.


WRP,
Thank you for your reply. In my opinion making a rule because no one has something within your organization is a bad reason. That reasoning will exclude racers from supporting some events or venues, even if it’s only one time a year. We need to find as many ways as possible to INCLUDE everyone that has an interest and will support this division. Car count is KING above all other concerns! Allowing someone to run a dry sump oil system has nothing to do with existing racers spending any money. I have a dry sump and another racer in Ohio has one from another company. This system has no advantage from a performance standpoint. It takes HP to run the pump and adds weight to the car. This is about fixing an oil related issue on a Kawasaki engine that is available and inexpensive compared to the other popularly run engines. The engine is not being used dependably by many due to the unreliable oil system that has caused many engine failures. Engine failure alone is what is crippling this class and reducing car counts. I am all for containing the costs on engines, “stock engines”. We must be able to easily, reliably, and REPEATEDLY tech the cars and engines for the rules we put in place. Otherwise any set of rules is worthless! I am also in favor of uniform rules between different areas and organizations. Great concept! We also need to work together as organizations on scheduling to maximize our car counts! We all need to put our personal agendas aside and PROMOTE this class of racing. In my humble opinion this division, “Mini Sprints, Lightning Sprint” is hands down the best bang for your buck! If and when this class grows we can all benefit regardless of our personal interests.

Go Fast Turn Left
Rick Hench

[openwheel44]

I was informed yesterday that a GOOD, reputable dry sump system would only cost $1500. The really good news......That it includes a new pan, electric water pump/hose system, adapters, oil line hoses, fittings, tank......EVERYTHING ready to bolt it on. This does not necessarily make me an advocate for them mind you but that covers the cost of one blown motor if indeed it saved one. That in itself is a good deal. Thank you Shane R. for the trip down enlightenment road. LOL But keep in mind, I still say if there are cheaper ways to cure some of the issues any of these motors have.........I will be for that immediately. I am all about cheap, affordable racing. Firm believer in the KISS method.

I had a lot of information presented to me yesterday in various conversations that validated what I experienced and how I addressed it on my ZX-10 yesterday. Something that could occur in any of our motors. All the oil is going to the top end at racing RPM's and letting the system suck air if nothing is done to address that. I think I have done much to prevent that with my system. Basically a dry sump sounds like it could do the same thing as long as you prevent the oil from "hanging in the motor" or literally prevent so much from going up there or being held in suspension. Personally, I think that is the root of the problem.....not so much the system that pumps the oil to the vital areas. As always, everyone has their own way of trying to solve problems.

But I thank everyone for their input and information both on here and on the phone.

[DAD]

Phil

Did anyone tell you that the Kawasaki racing head gasket uses a restricted oil supply passage up to the head (smaller hole in it). You can also restrict the oil supply to the trans and clutch if you don't plan on spending a lot of time sitting around in traffic.

Watch out for them oval shaped main bearing bores. If they want to sell you a motor without a flywheel or stator cover look elsewhere.

Honest Dad himself

[openwheel44]

Just got those words of wisdom whipped on me yesterday about the restrictor to in the head. But like I explained.....I have set up a system that forces that excess oil right back down to the pan. Don't know if I simply stumbled onto another solution or not. The restrictor is a better deal if it indeed works and doesn't cause other issues. Trust me.........I will be testing it.

Since there is so much oil and force dealing with the return system I have from the valve cover apparatus, I have considered going ahead and put a small oil cooler in the line. Simple deal to do. I am not dealing with a pressure system other than the oil being forced out of the head down my reroute system. But from experience and seeing how quickly it can pump oil out of those two outlets.............it should work.

Also had it explained to me that I need to get to a Kawasaki dealer and see if I can get the racing manual with a whole sh*t load of information/tidbits addressing a lot of issues.............. I am the proverbial babe in the woods evidently.