[revjimk]

Originally Posted by Ray3 I want cost to be reduced as much as anyone. I fight for it every day in Midget racing and get ridiculed. Typically I get ridiculed by people who don't pay their own engine bills but I'll save that argument for another day. Every time we reduce cost the promoters take advantage and lower the purse. For example, a track is paying $1500 to win for 360 winged sprints. They change their engine rules to 305 RaceSaver and overnight they start paying $500 to win instead. Even though the car counts went up. Why? The same number of people are coming through the front gate and more are coming through the back gate. The only way reducing costs works is if the pay stays where its at. D2 pay at $250-$300 to win and $25-50 to start is just not worth it.

Makes sense to me....

[Ray3]

Originally Posted by copper14 a guy from new Zealand and a guy from Australia bought a roller from us several years ago.they were from around Jacksonville ill.they were trying to get a v6 sprint car class going.they said over 100 v6 sprinters would show up for a race in austraila.motors were cheap and plentiful and somebody started making a kit to put it in a car.i don't think they got it going here but I thought it was a great idea to make racing affordable. rollers are affordable and a used v6 equals cheap racing and great car counts.CG

The bad part about starting a new class is you divide the racing up and actually have less cars in the end. That is the biggest hurdle to overcome. I would rather change what is already there. Give everyone ample time to use what they have, and slowly phase out current programs.

We need a reset in Midget racing and it is no secret I am all for the DOHC 4cyl Production Midget engine program. The program cuts Midget engine costs by at least 50-70% and the engines are still fast as hell. They also fit in current chassis with no modifications. Then, instead of $36,000 to $50,000 for new engines its more like $15,000-$18,000. http://www.dohcmidgetracing.com

Every other solution for Midget racing thus far has been talk and no action. Everyone has an idea but it has never been implemented and nobody knows if it works. At least you can say the DOHC program has been implemented somewhere and is being proven. The best part is its exceeding expectations!

[Cobra 14]

With a small hard tire, I don't see it as a new class but rather an evolution where all exist cars are allowed.. You pick whatever engine you want. No engine tech.. The tires ability to provide traction is the limiting factor..

[copper14]

I thought d2 was to be a junk yard motor.i think sun prairie ruined the junk yard motor concept.a car I helped put together was a real junk yard motor ,300 bucks,and won a feature at grundy last year.the dad and daughter that drove worked on the car every night until it went around the track.and it was a 300 buck motor.factory crank rods block head.that is what I thought d2 was about.

[Cobra 14]

Way outside the box.. What do you think of a minimum of 18lb in the rr and 12lb in the lr after the scales?

It'll stiffen the side walls.. Crown the tire and cost teams nothing

Really simple tech. Open engines.. No bleeder allowed..

Surely its worth trying.. What do we have to lose?

[mscs20]

Originally Posted by copper14 a guy from new Zealand and a guy from Australia bought a roller from us several years ago.they were from around Jacksonville ill.they were trying to get a v6 sprint car class going.they said over 100 v6 sprinters would show up for a race in austraila.motors were cheap and plentiful and somebody started making a kit to put it in a car.i don't think they got it going here but I thought it was a great idea to make racing affordable. rollers are affordable and a used v6 equals cheap racing and great car counts.CG

CG,
They put a Buick V6 in that car and won the 410 championship at Charleston Speedway last year. I believe they said they had $4200 total in the engine with modifications included.

Steve

[Ray3]

Originally Posted by copper14 I thought d2 was to be a junk yard motor.i think sun prairie ruined the junk yard motor concept.a car I helped put together was a real junk yard motor ,300 bucks,and won a feature at grundy last year.the dad and daughter that drove worked on the car every night until it went around the track.and it was a 300 buck motor.factory crank rods block head.that is what I thought d2 was about.

I don't understand how people can't grasp how racing works. The Ford Focus series was a much better concept than the D2 series. You received a completely brand new never been run engine for $7850 when it first started in the Midwest. Everyone had to run the exact same engine. Talk about coming down to set-up and driver. In the end, it failed. Got down to basically less than 10 cars at every event.

The ASCSII Midget series was the next Ford Focus series. Engines were even built by the same exact guy that did the Focus engines. They required an Ecotec engine and went so far as to run dirt only (people blamed pavement and travel for the downfall of the Focus series). Everyone had the same engine, it came down to setup and driver and it failed.

There is no such thing as a $300 junk yard engine. You might get a core for $300 but how good is it? Not to mention good cores are actually much more than $300 and cost more like $700-$1500 based on mileage. Then at the end of the day, you have an engine someone wouldn't even run in their street car let alone in a race car. Then ask yourself, "what all do I have to do to it or pay someone to do to it to make it viable for racing?" Quite a bit actually. Since D2 is not a spec sealed engine series you can totally rebuild them if you want (couldn't do that in the Focus or ASCSII series). When you take a junk yard engine and totally rebuild it even using STOCK parts you can still spend right around $15,000 on it! Labor and parts are not cheap. MWR builds stock component Ecotecs and his top of the line D2 engine is right at $15,000. Here is a link to prove it. http://www.mwrtechnology.com/product...stage-4-motor/.

Now think about this. You spent $15k and you could have had a Badger legal engine that puts out over 325hp and makes 240 ft lbs of torque. Raced Badger for $1,000 to win, or POWRI National and race for $2000 to win and been very competitive. This is in lieu of racing D2 where it pays $300 to win and maybe if you're lucky $50 to start! Here is a video of a Badger engine going up against the status quo Midget engines and finishing second https://youtu.be/s1nx1BvpWA4

Now, here is a link to a brand new Badger legal Honda for under $15,000. (ignore the hp figures cause in my opinion they are exaggerated) https://kmodperformance.myshopify.co...nt=47562707981

What makes more sense? If you feel like its D2 then have at it. I'll stay with Badger where the pay is good, the officiating is done by the series itself, the T&S is done by the series itself, the tech is done by the series itself, the series is operated by an elected board of directors, every dime the series makes goes back into it not into someones pockets, etc etc etc. Oh and the engines are basically as fast as current engines that cost $36,000 to $50,000 so you have taken nothing away from the traditional speed that Midget fans are used to.

I have looked at this time and time again. I raced the Focus Series, Badger pre and post DOHC engines, POWRI National, USAC National, TQs, go-kart etc. The thing that makes the most sense is what Badger is doing now. It is the right balance of professionalism, cost, pay out, ability to tech engines, etc etc etc. Oh and there is nobody abusing their position to get a free or reduced cost engine. Can't say that about D2. In the D2 series I know of at least two series owners who have used their position to get a Honda or Ecotec for free or reduced price. And guess what, they're full blown top of the line rebuilt engines not a junk yard special!!

[Wayne Davis]

Originally Posted by Ray3 I don't understand how people can't grasp how racing works. The Ford Focus series was a much better concept than the D2 series. You received a completely brand new never been run engine for $7850 when it first started in the Midwest. Everyone had to run the exact same engine. Talk about coming down to set-up and driver. In the end, it failed. Got down to basically less than 10 cars at every event. The ASCSII Midget series was the next Ford Focus series. Engines were even built by the same exact guy that did the Focus engines. They required an Ecotec engine and went so far as to run dirt only (people blamed pavement and travel for the downfall of the Focus series). Everyone had the same engine, it came down to setup and driver and it failed. There is no such thing as a $300 junk yard engine. You might get a core for $300 but how good is it? Not to mention good cores are actually much more than $300 and cost more like $700-$1500 based on mileage. Then at the end of the day, you have an engine someone wouldn't even run in their street car let alone in a race car. Then ask yourself, "what all do I have to do to it or pay someone to do to it to make it viable for racing?" Quite a bit actually. Since D2 is not a spec sealed engine series you can totally rebuild them if you want (couldn't do that in the Focus or ASCSII series). When you take a junk yard engine and totally rebuild it even using STOCK parts you can still spend right around $15,000 on it! Labor and parts are not cheap. MWR builds stock component Ecotecs and his top of the line D2 engine is right at $15,000. Here is a link to prove it. http://www.mwrtechnology.com/product...stage-4-motor/. Now think about this. You spent $15k and you could have had a Badger legal engine that puts out over 325hp and makes 240 ft lbs of torque. Raced Badger for $1,000 to win, or POWRI National and race for $2000 to win and been very competitive. This is in lieu of racing D2 where it pays $300 to win and maybe if you're lucky $50 to start! Here is a video of a Badger engine going up against the status quo Midget engines and finishing second https://youtu.be/s1nx1BvpWA4 Now, here is a link to a brand new Badger legal Honda for under $15,000. (ignore the hp figures cause in my opinion they are exaggerated) https://kmodperformance.myshopify.co...nt=47562707981 What makes more sense? If you feel like its D2 then have at it. I'll stay with Badger where the pay is good, the officiating is done by the series itself, the T&S is done by the series itself, the tech is done by the series itself, the series is operated by an elected board of directors, every dime the series makes goes back into it not into someones pockets, etc etc etc. Oh and the engines are basically as fast as current engines that cost $36,000 to $50,000 so you have taken nothing away from the traditional speed that Midget fans are used to. I have looked at this time and time again. I raced the Focus Series, Badger pre and post DOHC engines, POWRI National, USAC National, TQs, go-kart etc. The thing that makes the most sense is what Badger is doing now. It is the right balance of professionalism, cost, pay out, ability to tech engines, etc etc etc.

Hold onto your horses just a bit....let's speak the TRUTH... here is a link to that same engine you are calling $15,000.00 MWR ...http://www.mwrtechnology.com/product...ec-long-block/.... complete long block for under 3 grand.

Now just like all these Badger/MWR Ecotec/KMOD Honda that BOLT ON brand new accessories, this is what drives drives the essential cost up when you start out new, not the engine itself, unless you start adding a lot of aftermarket internals and swapping components. as they do in another 2.4 style of engine


Injection with filter (Kinsler) $3600
Header (Shoenfeld) $490
Oil pan $425
Fuel Pump $500
MSD/Electromotive ignition $1400
Dry Sump oil pump (Barnes) $2100
Dry Sump Tank $450
Drive gears and belts $300

That in itself is almost $8K....Not what D-2 is about...then came along "ANOTHER" series that wanted to spend more $$$$ on their "STOCK BLOCK" engines and BAM there ya go....

I just broke an engine (2.4 ecotec) at this years GDN 3 weeks ago...going back with the same deal cause it was a self induced issue and it will be back race ready for under 2 grand...

Oh and by the way there are true D-2 series that pay better then Badger in the form of $1200 to win $225 to start and has a couple of $1500/$300 and 1 race that paid $5000 to win and $300 for 26th starting spot...total STOCK type engines

so Make sure you put out the whole story and not just 1/2 of to trying to make 1 series look way better than the other

"I'll stay with Badger where the pay is good, the officiating is done by the series itself, the T&S is done by the series itself, the tech is done by the series itself, the series is operated by an elected board of directors, every dime the series makes goes back into it not into someones pockets, etc etc etc."

I promise you I have not made 1 penny from my D-2 series and the pay is DAMN good the officiating is done by the series...tech is before and after every race..by the series...along with the T&S...by the series....

Thanks to all that support midget racing as a whole...what ever you race whether it's D-2...Badger/PowrI or National midgets just please support the tracks that allow and give us a place to race

In closing I will say this, YOU do not need to spend $12,000 to $15,000 for an engine to win in D-2 ...The last 2 Gator "DIRT" Nationals was won by a racers that had less the $10 grand in their cars...2017-$5000 to win...won by someone that had 5K total in his lightning car. 2018-$2500 to win.... won by a driver that had an 8 year old (sealed) RRE ecotec with a car that had been through hell. moral of the story...quit worrying about others engines ....comply to the said rules and work on your set-up and driving skills....that will make even the ugliest turd go fast

[Ray3]

Originally Posted by Wayne Davis Hold onto your horses just a bit....let's speak the TRUTH... here is a link to that same engine you are calling $15,000.00 MWR ...http://www.mwrtechnology.com/product...ec-long-block/.... complete long block for under 3 grand. I promise you I have not made 1 penny from my D-2 series and the pay is DAMN good the officiating is done by the series...tech is before and after every race..by the series...along with the T&S...by the series....

The engine I'm calling $15k? Its right there in black and white for everyone to read. I didn't make the number up!!

I compared apples to apples. New D2 to new Badger. The fact is they are basically the same price. The difference is one performs better and has better reliability due to better internal parts.

You haven't made a dime but have you or are you planning to receive a free or reduced cost engine that is completely rebuilt and not a junk yard special like you want others to use? Why is it good enough for others to use junk yard specials when the owners of the series receive free or reduced price rebuilt engines?

Also, lets tell everyone where the rules were first! Badger style or D2? Cause if I recall the current Badger style rules were implemented in 2013 with the IMRA. Then D2 rules were implemented in 2016. So don't make it sound like Badger rules came later. I still have all the rule books and revisions with dates if anyone would like proof on that as well. Also, your rules in Florida do not match those of the MTM or the IMRA so which series is the real D2? And remember, you're in Florida! Not really a hotbed of Midget racing action. You are really in no position to tell other series what their rules should be.

I asked a really good friend of mine who is a former CEO of two very large companies how do we institute change in our sport. He told me to post verifiable facts and people will see the evidence and come around. Some day I think I'm going to introduce him to the people who argue with me so he can see how ridiculous people can actually be even when confronted with verifiable and factual information.

This is my last post on this thread. So if anyone wants to discuss this further with me PM me.

[The Old Coyote]